The Rapture

[VCO]

There is no "millennial kingdom" - there is a mention of the metaphorical/figurative reign of a thousand years.

No cookie for you...

And when HE proves you WRONG, what are you going to say to HIM?


Revelation 20:4-5 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.


Romans 4:3 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”


So you bold proclaim, "YOU DO NOT BELIEVE GOD", so what do you expect HIM to say to YOU?

 

[Bladerunner]

You are mis-characterizing my view. To be clear this is what I believe is taught:

The Body (Saved, Unsaved, doesn't matter): turns to dust - its done - kaput. Not one molecule of our current body is part of our new spiritual body!!! No, the molecules aren't changed, they are corrupted PERIOD. It has been like this since Abel and remains this way even today. The only exception to this rule was Jesus. We have, count them, at least FIVE passages that teach this: Psa 16:10, Ecc 12:7, Acts 2:27,31, 13:35-37.

The "changing" of 1 Cor 15:52 is the change of the soul being restored having been separated from God because of Adam. This is why Paul teaches, "we won't all sleep" because some of the Corinthians will be alive when 70 AD comes. This is death being swallowed up in victory no longer having any sting. The sting of death is sin, and the strength (or Power) of sin is the law. The Law passed away on 9th Av, 70 AD. From the moment the temple was destroyed, the Law lost its power.

The Spirit: Returns to the Father who gave it. See Ecc 12:7

The Soul of the righteous: (Prior to 70 AD) went to the good side of Sheol/Hades where it was "asleep" yet conscience.

The Soul of the righteous: (After 70 AD) goes straight to heaven and receives its rewards, including it's new spiritual body. No more waiting or sleeping in Hades.

The Church was taken to Pella to completely avoid the Great Tribulation which came upon Jerusalem from 67-70 AD. There is no need to "rapture" the church anymore because God already punished Jerusalem. Again, their souls were changed right then too, where ever any Christ was at the time. They became citizens of heaven with those in heaven in the spiritual realm right then and for now on.

Is some of the more insightful want to clean this up, please do.

I think this is a little more appropriate. 1 cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."


I take it, you do not literally read your Bible thus you are not really not serious about learning it valuable information.

 

[VCO]

LOL. Who do you think the plagues mentioned in Deu 28 were for? Maybe you should read the passage and compare it to what happened in 70 AD. You might learn something.

I think GOD is intelligent enough to say exactly what HE MEANS, and you believe something else.

 

[Locutus]

You want to know what happened to Israel/Judah in the last days?

Deut 31:29 “For I know that after my death you will become utterly corrupt, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you. And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.”

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[J7]

So when is the resurrection Locutus?

 

[KJV1611]

They have no business in this thread. The rapture is a joke to them. Jesus' cruel joke.

Pathetic.

This is strong meat, milk drinkers can't handle it.

 

[PlainWord]

And why is it figurative?

Because the whole book of Ezekiel from Chapter 1 to 36 deals with their Babylonian captivity and eventual restoration following it. So unless you think the resurrection happened in 539 BC, or that Ezekiel, who exhaustively covers the years of captivity suddenly skips 2,500+ years, then the Valley of Dry Bones is figurative for the nation of Israel that was destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar "coming back to life" in their own country living in relative peace under Persia dominance for the next 370 years. This peace in their country continued really until Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168 BC.

The end of Chapter 37 discusses that Israel would no longer be two nations, but one, under one king v.15-20. This period in Israel's history, for the most part, they worshiped Yahweh and kept His ordinances with no more idols v.23 until the Hellenistic period which of course led to their next round of punishment which ended with the revolt of the Maccabees.

 

[PlainWord]

So then Jesus' physical body still lies in the ground?

No, I said, EXCEPT Jesus and provided 5 passages that make clear that Jesus' body was not allowed to see corruption.

 

[valiant]

And when HE proves you WRONG, what are you going to say to HIM?

Don't worry. He will prove us right

Revelation 20:4-5 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

But not on earth. It is quite obvious that they reigned in Heaven. the 'thousand years' are NOW. The first resurrection was Jesus and His church (Eph 2.5; Col 3.1-3).

Romans 4:3 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

amen.

So you bold proclaim, "YOU DO NOT BELIEVE GOD", so what do you expect HIM to say to YOU?

we believe Him. We do not believe Y0U. of course you misrepresent him, like you do everything else.

 

[J7]

Because the whole book of Ezekiel from Chapter 1 to 36 deals with their Babylonian captivity and eventual restoration following it. So unless you think the resurrection happened in 539 BC, or that Ezekiel, who exhaustively covers the years of captivity suddenly skips 2,500+ years, then the Valley of Dry Bones is figurative for the nation of Israel that was destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar "coming back to life" in their own country living in relative peace under Persia dominance for the next 370 years. This peace in their country continued really until Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168 BC.

The end of Chapter 37 discusses that Israel would no longer be two nations, but one, under one king v.15-20. This period in Israel's history, for the most part, they worshiped Yahweh and kept His ordinances with no more idols v.23 until the Hellenistic period which of course led to their next round of punishment which ended with the revolt of the Maccabees.

You cannot put the prophets in a box. They all prophecied of Christ, and the reunification of Israel and Judah under one King happened when Christ came.

 

[valiant]

I think GOD is intelligent enough to say exactly what HE MEANS, and you believe something else.

Yep you ignore His plain words.

 

[KJV1611]

Because the whole book of Ezekiel from Chapter 1 to 36 deals with their Babylonian captivity and eventual restoration following it. So unless you think the resurrection happened in 539 BC, or that Ezekiel, who exhaustively covers the years of captivity suddenly skips 2,500+ years, then the Valley of Dry Bones is figurative for the nation of Israel that was destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar "coming back to life" in their own country living in relative peace under Persia dominance for the next 370 years. This peace in their country continued really until Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168 BC.

The end of Chapter 37 discusses that Israel would no longer be two nations, but one, under one king v.15-20. This period in Israel's history, for the most part, they worshiped Yahweh and kept His ordinances with no more idols v.23 until the Hellenistic period which of course led to their next round of punishment which ended with the revolt of the Maccabees.

Is this dealing with the Babylonian captivity.... was David their king and shepherd or is this speaking of Christ when he brought them into one kingdom?

Ezekiel 37:24 KJV
[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

 

[KJV1611]

I think people look to much at the micro level of prophecy and completely miss the macro level which is the intended level to be understood.

The micro level is the frame that the macro exists in.

 

[PlainWord]

" But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" - Dan.12:2-3

Their bodies become dust in the ground but their souls go to Hades, also in the earth (the Pit). It isn't their bodies which sleep, it is their souls that sleep. The body decays and becomes dust from whence it came. So, when they "awake," it's their souls waking up coming out of Hades, not their bodies. They are then clothed with a new heavenly body that God provides. This isn't that difficult people.

CONCERNING MAN:

Genesis 3:19

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”


Job 34:15
All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.


Psalm 104:29
You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.


Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

CONCERNING CHRIST:

Psalm 16:10

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31

he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Does Christ have the keys to dust or to Hades? If a soul comes out of Hades and goes to Heaven, would a mortal being on the surface of the planet see that happen? Does anyone witness a soul leave a body today when a person dies? I've never heard any doctor record seeing this so why would anyone see a soul leave Hades?

Again people, read what Paul writes in 1 Cor 15 before you get to your "rapture" verses. It seems many are ignoring the flavor of the whole passage and instead focusing on 2 verses (which they then mis-apply):

[SUP]35 [/SUP]But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” [SUP]36 [/SUP]Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. [SUP]37 [/SUP]And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

 

[PlainWord]

Is this dealing with the Babylonian captivity.... was David their king and shepherd or is this speaking of Christ when he brought them into one kingdom?

Ezekiel 37:24 KJV
[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Indeed, this was the future promise of Christ (represented as David) who was supposed to be King over them. But of course, the "builder's" rejected Him so this never happened to the restored one nation Israel.

 

[KJV1611]

Their bodies become dust in the ground but their souls go to Hades, also in the earth (the Pit). It isn't their bodies which sleep, it is their souls that sleep. The body decays and becomes dust from whence it came. So, when they "awake," it's their souls waking up coming out of Hades, not their bodies. They are then clothed with a new heavenly body that God provides. This isn't that difficult people.

CONCERNING MAN:

Genesis 3:19

In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”


Job 34:15
All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.


Psalm 104:29
You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.


Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

CONCERNING CHRIST:

Psalm 16:10

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31

he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Does Christ have the keys to dust or to Hades? If a soul comes out of Hades and goes to Heaven, would a mortal being on the surface of the planet see that happen? Does anyone witness a soul leave a body today when a person dies? I've never heard any doctor record seeing this so why would anyone see a soul leave Hades?

Again people, read what Paul writes in 1 Cor 15 before you get to your "rapture" verses. It seems many are ignoring the flavor of the whole passage and instead focusing on 2 verses (which they then mis-apply):

[SUP]35 [/SUP]But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” [SUP]36 [/SUP]Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. [SUP]37 [/SUP]And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

The body that gets planted (buried) is the SEED or DNA of the NEW BODY. The new body can't come into existence with the seed - the planted body.

 

[KJV1611]

Indeed, this was the future promise of Christ (represented as David) who was supposed to be King over them. But of course, the "builder's" rejected Him so this never happened to the restored one nation Israel.

Sure it happened, it happened in the new Jerusalem, the TRUE Israel.

 

[PlainWord]

You cannot put the prophets in a box. They all prophecied of Christ, and the reunification of Israel and Judah under one King happened when Christ came.

The reunification of Israel and Judah happened when??? They left as two countries and returned as one. This happened 500 years before Christ came. What are you talking about???

In the first half of Eze 37 Israel is restored to her Land following Babylonian captivity. She follows God. v. 1-14.

In the second part promises were being made.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

This happened after they returned from Babylon. Forward looking promises of what would have been had they not rejected Christ comes next.

and My servant David shall be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

Did the second temple last forever? No. The above didn't happen in the literal sense because the Builder's rejected Him. So, does the above happen in the spiritual sense? You bet it does:

1 Pet 2:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, [SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[SUP][/SUP][SUP] 7 [/SUP]Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[SUP][/SUP]“The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,”[SUP][/SUP][SUP] 8 [/SUP]and


“A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.”[SUP][/SUP]They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; [SUP]10 [/SUP]who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[PlainWord]

Sure it happened, it happened in the new Jerusalem, the TRUE Israel.

That's what I'm saying too. It didn't happen to the nation of Israel. It happened to those who believed, to the Jews and also the Greek believers.

 

[KJV1611]

That's what I'm saying too. It didn't happen to the nation of Israel. It happened to those who believed, to the Jews and also the Greek believers.

it sure did and at the same time all were brought into one in Christ, the Old Testament saints dry bones were raised and given life. That's what Ezekiel 37 is all about a prophecy of the resurrection.