The Rapture

[Bogadile]

What passage do you have that supports it happening in the future since we are already in the "restoration of all things?"

BTW, our bodies when they die, return to dust. They are corruptible. Corruptible things cannot enter heaven. Only Jesus' body didn't see corruption.

Oh yes I forgot we have a chasm between us when it comes to our understanding of the resurrection. I believe in a physical resurrection.

 

[J7]

Talk some more about the transition not existing for gentiles, please. Not sure I understand what you are saying.

What Luke calls the Kingdom Of God, Matthew calls The Kingdom Of Heaven.

Luke was writing to the Nations, he could have said kingdom of Israel but that might be confusing so he says Kingdom Of God.

Likewise Matthew could say the spiritual kingdom of Israel but he says Kingdom Of Heaven, the point being that Matthew is highlighting the difference between earthly Israel and spiritual Israel.

 

[Locutus]

The first "resurrection" is the same thing Peter and Paul speaks of:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[PlainWord]

[/SIZE]



Correct again! The promises that Yeshua made is to the entire church, not just to part of the first century. If the rapture had already happened it would leave the bulk of the church out of that promise.

When the next stage of the first resurrection takes place, those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church will resurrect. Immediately following that, the living in Christ will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies with the entire church from beginning to end meeting the Lord in the air, so that the whole church will be gathered in one place.

According to PW's version, it would leave the church, that would have continued to be built after 70 AD, out of Christ's promise of the resurrection. Again, the living church cannot be on this earth during the time of God's wrath and therefore must be changed and caught up prior to that first seal being opened.

You are mis-characterizing my view. To be clear this is what I believe is taught:

The Body (Saved, Unsaved, doesn't matter): turns to dust - its done - kaput. Not one molecule of our current body is part of our new spiritual body!!! No, the molecules aren't changed, they are corrupted PERIOD. It has been like this since Abel and remains this way even today. The only exception to this rule was Jesus. We have, count them, at least FIVE passages that teach this: Psa 16:10, Ecc 12:7, Acts 2:27,31, 13:35-37.

The "changing" of 1 Cor 15:52 is the change of the soul being restored having been separated from God because of Adam. This is why Paul teaches, "we won't all sleep" because some of the Corinthians will be alive when 70 AD comes. This is death being swallowed up in victory no longer having any sting. The sting of death is sin, and the strength (or Power) of sin is the law. The Law passed away on 9th Av, 70 AD. From the moment the temple was destroyed, the Law lost its power.

The Spirit: Returns to the Father who gave it. See Ecc 12:7

The Soul of the righteous: (Prior to 70 AD) went to the good side of Sheol/Hades where it was "asleep" yet conscience.

The Soul of the righteous: (After 70 AD) goes straight to heaven and receives its rewards, including it's new spiritual body. No more waiting or sleeping in Hades.

The Church was taken to Pella to completely avoid the Great Tribulation which came upon Jerusalem from 67-70 AD. There is no need to "rapture" the church anymore because God already punished Jerusalem. Again, their souls were changed right then too, where ever any Christ was at the time. They became citizens of heaven with those in heaven in the spiritual realm right then and for now on.

Is some of the more insightful want to clean this up, please do.

 

[PlainWord]

meant to say, "wherever any Christian was at the time." and "If any of the more insightful..."

 

[J7]

You just said that there is only one ressurection, now you are calling this the first one, so you are saying there is more than one?

The first "resurrection" is the same thing Peter and Paul speaks of:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[PlainWord]

The first "resurrection" is the same thing Peter and Paul speaks of:

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Can you speak about "quickened?"

 

[Locutus]

Yes, it sure does!!

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

In other words, "Do not harm Israel, the Roman solders or the wicked religious leaders until the Jewish Christian Church of Jerusalem has been sealed (and protected)." A lot of people don't realize how many solders Rome lost in the 7-year War of the Jews. I don't know either, but it was a lot, way over 10,000.

I think this post of PLW's really needs further consideration by the woody literalists - John's revelation is full of metaphor and figurative language in the style of the OT prophets - consider how Ezekiel uses "trees":

Ezek 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.

Adam Clarke's commentary:

Verse 24

All the trees of the field shall know - All the people of Israel and of Chaldea.

I the Lord have brought down the high tree - Have dethroned Jehoiachin.

Have exalted the low tree - Put Zedekiah, brother of Jehoiachin, in his place.

Have dried up the green tree - Zedekiah, who had numerous children, but who were all slain before his eyes at Riblah.

 

[Locutus]

You just said that there is only one resurrection, now you are calling this the first one, so you are saying there is more than one?

You failed to notice that I put the word resurrection in "..."

 

[J7]

So when is the resurrection?

 

[PlainWord]

Oh yes I forgot we have a chasm between us when it comes to our understanding of the resurrection. I believe in a physical resurrection.

So, you believe your earthly body once it's dead and buried and decayed for however long, literally wakes back up, reforms and comes back to life? Your belief contradicts Paul's (not so clear) teaching in 1 Cor 15:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

In other words, your body is NOT the body that it will become. You are essentially sowing a piece of grain. God gives you a new spiritual body as He pleases, bearing the image of the Heavenly Man. What is of heaven is heaven. What is of earth, remains on earth.

 

[PlainWord]

To be clear, I do not believe the resurrection, whereby the saved received their spiritual bodies and went to heaven, was a visible event. In our mortal world, we almost never get to look inside the spiritual world which is where the new bodies immediately would be.

Souls went to Hades. In the resurrection, they arose from Hades and received their new heavenly body that God gives each of them. Not one speck of our earthly physical body is used in the construction of the new heavenly body. That's my view for what it's worth.

 

[PlainWord]

No it doesn't explain "the third part of the trees." The reference to a third of the earth and a third of the trees being burned up, which is the first trumpet, will take place literally. The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to be the worst time in the history of the world, dismantling all human government and decimating the majority of the earths population.

You people who believe and teach as you do, have no idea of the wrath that is coming upon t his earth! All of those events that will result from the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be literal plagues of wrath that God is going to pour out upon this earth and not something that happened spiritually in the past. When it says that "a third of the earth and trees will be burned up" that is exactly what is going to happen. When scripture says that a third of the earths population is going to be killed by those four angels and their army via fire, smoke and sulfur issuing from their mouths, that is exactly what is going to happen. When the scripture says that the sun is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, that is exactly what is going to happen, etc., etc.

In Revelation EARTH = ISRAEL. Sorry, you missed the tribulation. The plagues which were promised in Deu 28 happened.

[SUP]59 [/SUP]then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses.

You really should bone up on apocalyptic literature. You might sleep better at night.

 

[VCO]

Has everyone on this forum been left behind??

Nope but some will be. THAT IS WHAT THE PARABLE OF TEN VIRGINS IS ALL ABOUT.

 

[VCO]

In Revelation EARTH = ISRAEL. Sorry, you missed the tribulation. The plagues which were promised in Deu 28 happened.

[SUP]59 [/SUP]then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses.

You really should bone up on apocalyptic literature. You might sleep better at night.

To quote my IRISH ancestors: MALARKY!

 

[VCO]

To be clear, I do not believe the resurrection, whereby the saved received their spiritual bodies and went to heaven, was a visible event. In our mortal world, we almost never get to look inside the spiritual world which is where the new bodies immediately would be.

Souls went to Hades. In the resurrection, they arose from Hades and received their new heavenly body that God gives each of them. Not one speck of our earthly physical body is used in the construction of the new heavenly body. That's my view for what it's worth.

THEN THAT SHOULD TELL YOU THAT EVENT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

 

[KJV1611]

To be clear, I do not believe the resurrection, whereby the saved received their spiritual bodies and went to heaven, was a visible event. In our mortal world, we almost never get to look inside the spiritual world which is where the new bodies immediately would be.

Souls went to Hades. In the resurrection, they arose from Hades and received their new heavenly body that God gives each of them. Not one speck of our earthly physical body is used in the construction of the new heavenly body. That's my view for what it's worth.

When do you think the resurrection happened/happens?

 

[KJV1611]

So, you believe your earthly body once it's dead and buried and decayed for however long, literally wakes back up, reforms and comes back to life? Your belief contradicts Paul's (not so clear) teaching in 1 Cor 15:

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. [SUP]38 [/SUP]But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

In other words, your body is NOT the body that it will become. You are essentially sowing a piece of grain. God gives you a new spiritual body as He pleases, bearing the image of the Heavenly Man. What is of heaven is heaven. What is of earth, remains on earth.

Ezekiel 37:4-6 KJV
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord .

[5] Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

[6] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord .

This sounds like the old bodies are resurrected.

 

[KJV1611]

Question for my non-dispensationalist friends. Are the verse below prophetic of the end of earthly Jerusalem?

Jeremiah 7:32-34 KJV
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord , that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place.

[33] And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

[34] Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.

 

[PlainWord]

Ezekiel 37:4-6 KJV
Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord .

[5] Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

[6] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord .

This sounds like the old bodies are resurrected.

That's figurative using resurrection language to describe Israel's return as a dominant military force in the region. It has nothing to do with any real resurrection.