The Rapture

[J7]

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[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]John 14

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

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[Locutus]

The nature of the kingdom is expressed in various ways - it's always been there, but it was established "in power" at the cross.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

Col 2:15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

We see Paul proclaiming the victory at the cross: This is the kingdom triumphing over the world. The dispensationalisp will most likely argue "look around" - where is this "triumph?"

But then they claim contrary to scripture that the kingdom comes with observation. So they contradict Jesus' and Paul's statements.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

The saints were already members of and living in the kingdom - yet was this observable by the "look around" folks - no.

 

[J7]

Fine Locutus, but then you confuse the Kingdom Of God with The Millenial Kingdom

 

[Locutus]

There is no "millennial kingdom" - there is a mention of the metaphorical/figurative reign of a thousand years.

No cookie for you...

 

[J7]

Its academic Locutus, although I believe it is 1000 years.

According to you, we should be immortal:


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Rev 20:6
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[TD]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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[VCO]

The kingdom was established wasn't it?

The Kingdom within our hearts (when we get down off the throne of control and give it to HIM), is NOT THE SAME AS HIS MILLENNIAL REIGN FROM THE THRONE OF DAVID. BOTH ARE VERY REAL and that MILLENNIAL PHYSICAL REIGN WILL HAPPEN AS SURADELY AS THE SPIRITUAL KINGDOM IN OUR HEARTS HAPPENED WHEN WE WERE BORN AGAIN.

 

[toinena]

It is first after 1000 years that death will be finally overcome and Satan thrown to the bottomless pitch, right? I have wondered a lot about how those thousand years will be. It doesn't say much about that in the Scripture. But the millenium is going to be on this earth. So if we die during that time, it is only then we will go to Heaven. And the rapture?

I think no one can grasp the whole consept. But why did Jesus warn and tell us about the tribulations, if we were not going to experience them? So I tend to be post trib. But for the rest.... It is like Christmas eve. You have an idea. You have expectations. But you will not know your gifts before the gifts are unwrapped. And I would like to keep that childish joy and expectation until that day when I will dwell in my Father's house for eternity.

 

[Locutus]

There is only one resurrection - misunderstanding what the first "resurrection" is and it's nature leads to numerous fawlty "theologies"

 

[RickyZ]

I have to study this more. This one has me baffled at the moment.

Matthew 8:12 KJV
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The long winded, notated version of this is in my blogs about our judgment.

My belief is that when we are caught up to be with Christ and are judged, those who fail will be left out of the wedding feast. Being cut off from God during that feast, they are going thru a form of 'hell', where there is wailing and grinding of teeth.

 

[VCO]

The kingdom came at pentecost.

The KINGDOM comes individually in each, IF and WHEN they willingly OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM, surrender control of their lives to HIM as LORD, which means MASTER. THAT IS NOT a human work, it is a WORK purely of the HOLY SPIRIT, because one CANNOT LOVE LIKE THAT without the HOLY SPIRIT first entering your Heart, and POURING GOD's LOVE directly into your Heart.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


That is PART of the BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE, and therefore WHEN we can WILLINGLY surrender complete control to HIM as we mourn over our sins, and are eternally grateful for HIS PROVIDING a way to be totally forgiven. If you are holding 10% back just for yourself or putting limits on whatever HE may want you to do, THEN you have not YET arrived at that point of WILLINGLY OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM SURRENDERING COMPLETELY.

I gave that COMPLETE CONTROL to HIM as I was weeping uncontrollably over my UTTER SINFULNESS, begging for forgiveness for my whole lifestyle, after attempting suicide for the third time the last week of December 1977.

THE BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE IS VERY REAL,
GIVING HIM THE THRONE IN MY HEART IS VERY REAL,
AND HIS MILLENNIAL EARTHY PHYSICAL KINGDOM IS EQUALLY
VERY REAL AND WILL HAPPEN.

Am I perfect at the obedience part? Sadly no, because the Sin-Nature is still in this mortal body. I will not be PERFECT, until He changes this Mortal Body into a Glorified Immortal Body that cannot even think sin. But part of the Born Again Nature, is to EAGERLY confess and repent of that sin, every time you find it in yourself. It is a lifestyle of continually striving to OBEY HIM. Another part of being Born Again, is a loving, ongoing ability to converse with HIM from the heart. For example, when someone is pushing my buttons, and I am being tempted to get angry, it is part of my New Nature to think from my heart, "LORD, you have to help me keep my cool, because I am about to lose it!" I don't think He hears me, I KNOW HE HEARS ME! I even find it is second nature to want to confess it as SIN, whenever I catch myself accidently going over the posted speed limit.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It is first after 1000 years that death will be finally overcome and Satan thrown to the bottomless pitch, right? I have wondered a lot about how those thousand years will be. It doesn't say much about that in the Scripture. But the millenium is going to be on this earth. So if we die during that time, it is only then we will go to Heaven. And the rapture?

I think no one can grasp the whole consept. But why did Jesus warn and tell us about the tribulations, if we were not going to experience them? So I tend to be post trib. But for the rest.... It is like Christmas eve. You have an idea. You have expectations. But you will not know your gifts before the gifts are unwrapped. And I would like to keep that childish joy and expectation until that day when I will dwell in my Father's house for eternity.

Greetings toinerna,

First of all, it is important to understand the difference between God's coming, unprecedented wrath, also known as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial," vs. the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have as a result of our faith in him, which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkeness.

From the on-set of the church to this present time, believers have been suffering the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would encounter. However, regarding God's coming wrath, scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer it (Rom.5:9), that Jesus rescues us from it (1 Thes.1:10) and that he promised us that he would keep believers out of it (Rev.3:10).

The wrath of God will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and therefore the church must be gathered prior to that first seal being opened. Those who believe in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves. Also, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the entire earth is going to suffer the affects of God's coming wrath, then believers cannot be here and will be removed according to the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, which is the last plague of wrath, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled (Dan.2:31-45). Jesus is that Rock that falls on the feet of the statue, smashing it to pieces without leaving a trace (end of human government).

Shortly after the 7th bowl, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, where the lion will eat straw like the Ox, prey and predator animals and their young will lie down together and a young child will lead them.

Characteristics of the millennial period:

"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. (Isa.11:6-9)

I hope that this was beneficial to you

 

[J7]

There is only one resurrection - misunderstanding what the first "resurrection" is and it's nature leads to numerous fawlty "theologies"

Of which yours is numero uno

 

[VCO]

It is first after 1000 years that death will be finally overcome and Satan thrown to the bottomless pitch, right? I have wondered a lot about how those thousand years will be. It doesn't say much about that in the Scripture. But the millenium is going to be on this earth. So if we die during that time, it is only then we will go to Heaven. And the rapture?

I think no one can grasp the whole consept. But why did Jesus warn and tell us about the tribulations, if we were not going to experience them? So I tend to be post trib. But for the rest.... It is like Christmas eve. You have an idea. You have expectations. But you will not know your gifts before the gifts are unwrapped. And I would like to keep that childish joy and expectation until that day when I will dwell in my Father's house for eternity.

The Parable of Ten Virgins, Mat. 25:1-25, reveals to us that only 50% of the people who think the are Christians, get to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven with the Bridegroom. The other 50% are those who were not Ready and Watching for Him to come at an unexpected day and hour. Both groups are called Virgins, therefore non-Christians are not even pictured here. Thus the 50% of the CHRISTIANS who were NOT READY and WATCHING, will certainly be going through the Great Tribulation, while the 50% of us who were Ready and Watching for the Bridegroom to come before the Wrath of GOD comes at the end of Rev. chapter 6, we will be at the Wedding in Heaven.

A Jewish Wedding is celebrated for a WEEK (probably a week years), while at the Same time the 70th Week of Daniel is carried out here on Earth. That is also the SAME SEVEN YEARS as the Antichrist's Peace Treaty Covenant to protect Israel, which turns out to be a SCAM, Dan. 9:27.

 

[PlainWord]

The bodies of those christians are sleeping until the resurrection which happens in the future.

What passage do you have that supports it happening in the future since we are already in the "restoration of all things?"

BTW, our bodies when they die, return to dust. They are corruptible. Corruptible things cannot enter heaven. Only Jesus' body didn't see corruption.

 

[Locutus]

Matt 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

I think it's pretty easy to understand who the "children of the kingdom" were when we first consider the audience - i.e. his hearers in the 1st century AD and Paul's statements in Galatians.

The children of the kingdom were cast out in the war of 66-70 AD

The casting out of Matt 8:12 has nothing to do with Christians.

 

[PlainWord]

Sounds about right KJV.

The earthly Kingdom of Israel was to change into a heavenly Kingdom.
That is why Matthew speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven, as opposed to earth.
Luke just says Kingdom of God, because the transition does not exist for gentiles.

Talk some more about the transition not existing for gentiles, please. Not sure I understand what you are saying.

 

[PlainWord]

Nice! And it does explain THE THIRD PART of trees.

Yes, it sure does!!

“Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

In other words, "Do not harm Israel, the Roman solders or the wicked religious leaders until the Jewish Christian Church of Jerusalem has been sealed (and protected)." A lot of people don't realize how many solders Rome lost in the 7-year War of the Jews. I don't know either, but it was a lot, way over 10,000.

 

[J7]

It is the Kingdom of Israel. But what is your point?

 

[VCO]

It is first after 1000 years that death will be finally overcome and Satan thrown to the bottomless pitch, right? I have wondered a lot about how those thousand years will be. It doesn't say much about that in the Scripture. But the millenium is going to be on this earth. So if we die during that time, it is only then we will go to Heaven. And the rapture?

. . .

I forgot to answer the first Paragraph. I really do not like their 5 minute editing rule.

There are some verses that do tell us what will be going on in that 1000 Millennial Reign of Christ. But we will be in our glorified immortal bodies, reigning with Him as Priests. The primary responsibility for the Priests, in my opinion, is to TEACH the People. There will be Mortals having Children and Grandchildren during that 1000 Year Millennial Reign of Christ, but not us O.T Saints, Church-age Saints, and Tribulation Saints. I think the 50% of the Virgins who were not Ready and Watching when He came to CALL OUT HIS BRIDE, will be those who make up a lot of the Tribulation True Believers. So all of us will be in our glorified immmortal bodies, and HERE IS WHERE THE MORTAL Survivors are mentioned, which includes the 144,000 Israelites, and whoever is lucky enough to survive the WAR where the World's Armies attack Jerusalem to try to STOP CHRIST FROM COMING BACK TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD.

Zechariah 14:1-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives {the SECOND COMING}, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] This will be the plague the LORD strikes all the peoples with, who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] On that day a great panic from the LORD will be among them, so that each will seize the hand of another, and the hand of one will rise against the other.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Judah will also fight at Jerusalem, and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected: gold, silver, and clothing in great abundance.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The same plague as the previous one will strike the horses, mules, camels, donkeys, and all the animals that are in those camps.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, rain will not fall on them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter, then rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague the LORD inflicts on the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] This will be the punishment of Egypt and all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] On that day, ⌊the words⌋ HOLY TO THE LORD will be on the bells of the horses. The pots in the house of the LORD will be like the sprinkling basins before the altar.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of Hosts. Everyone who sacrifices will come and take some of the pots to cook in. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of Hosts.

Between WWIII in the early part of Antichrist's Reign, and the KING of Kings WAR with NATIONS ARMIES, Jerusalem will look worse than Berlin at the end of WWII. BUT THE LORD WILL REBUILD IT.


Isaiah 65:18-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for I will create Jerusalem to be a joy and its people to be a delight.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people. The sound of weeping and crying will no longer be heard in her.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] In her, a nursing infant will no longer live only a few days, or an old man not live out his days. Indeed, the youth will die at a hundred years, and the one who misses a hundred years will be cursed.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] People will build houses and live ⌊in them⌋; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] They will not build and others live ⌊in them⌋; they will not plant and others eat. For My people’s lives will be like the lifetime of a tree. My chosen ones will fully enjoy the work of their hands.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] They will not labor without success or bear children ⌊destined⌋ for disaster, for they will be a people blessed by the LORD along with their descendants.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Even before they call, I will answer; while they are still speaking, I will hear.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the serpent’s food will be dust! They will not do what is evil or destroy on My entire holy mountain,” says the LORD.

 

[Enow]

There is only one resurrection - misunderstanding what the first "resurrection" is and it's nature leads to numerous fawlty "theologies"

And how do you not know you are misreading what is meant by the first resurrection?

When Revelation specified whom is being raised as described as only those saints that went through the great tribulation, and then stated that the rest of the dead shall be resurrected later on.... then the application of "first resurrection" is merely referring to THAT resurrection of saints coming out of the great tribulation which will occur BEFORE the rest of the dead will be resurrected later on. It is in deference to the rest of the dead that will be resurrected later on is how you apply first resurrection to mean. It is not saying that there was no pre trib rapture before that at all.

Revelation 20:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Verse 5 is proof on how many readers are refusing to see how first resurrection is to be applied and so naturally thinking that there is no pre trib rapture which is an erroneous thinking.

Zechariah 14:1-5 prophesied that Jesus will come with the saints and set foot down on Mount of Olive to do battle against all the armies of the world that comes against Jerusalem....yet Revelation 20th chapter has Satan defeated and then the "first resurrection" happened if you apply first resurrection to mean the only one. That would mean those resurrected are not meeting Christ in the air because He has already set foot on the ground in defeating the world's armies and has casted Satan into the pit for a thousand years.

So scripture proves that you are applying the term "first resurrection" in the wrong way, thinking it is the only resurrection when it is deferring from the rest of the dead that is to be resurrected after that one. Again, Revelation 20:5 is proof.

I know I cannot convince you.. as only He can help you see the truth in His words... otherwise, you have a paradox to solve since the world's armies has been defeated and Satan has been cast into the pit BEFORE the so called first and only resurrection would occur... and they are not meeting Christ in the air when He is already on earth.

So there is a pre trib rapture after all..... but not every saved believer will be found abiding in Him nor ready as in willing to go which is why God will be judging His House first as many saved believers found in iniquity and former believers will be left behind. but He still abides in them but they shall be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House after the great tribulation for that is the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name.

So may every one having His seal...including former believers....by going before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ, our Good Shepherd, to discern & to depart from iniquity...or risk being left behind. That is the whole point of God warning the seven churches in Revelation to prepare themselves or else because the Bridegroom is coming first.