The Rapture

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RickyZ said:
Serious question now, not taunting ... Please explain to me how, if Jesus brought in his kingdom ending the kingdom of this world, why is this world running headlong into apostasy and the rejection of all things Godly?

Please don't expect me to believe that Christ is as inept at ruling as Trump is.

This to me is the biggest fail point. I just can't imagine how the Kingdom of God produces such un-Godly results.
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It is a spiritual reigning. This concept is taught all over, especially in the Book of John. "All things have been restored" is completed. IT IS DONE! This was a HUGE deal. At the Fall, mankind was separated from God with no means to go to heaven upon death. Souls were locked up in Sheol/Hades awaiting redemption. Christ's sacrifice being the only one perfect and capable of saving us, provided the path to Heaven. However, "The Law" was given to Moses but the Law was perfect and no man was able to keep it. Not one tittle of the Law passed away until the "Heavens and Earth" passed away which happened in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

The Kingdom is within us, it isn't and NEVER was taught to be a physical earthly kingdom, it is far better than that. This earth is corrupt and dead. Our kingdom is forever and incorrupt. Our residence is above. Our kingdom is far superior to any earthly government. All governments of man are temporary and imperfect. Their authority was smashed by Christ and His Mountain has filled the whole earth. His authority and presence within us is pure power as nobody can take away what is really important. They can take away our lives but after that they can do no more. We have the total victory in Christ.

Don't let the cares of this world (Trump tweets, or whatever:rolleyes:) bother you. God establishes all kings and let's them reign as He wishes. God is in charge, He sits on the throne. Live in your spirit. Focus on the spiritual things, you will be much happier.
 
Locutus said:
I'm sorry PLW, I have to go with 16 of 11 on this one...:cool:
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They both work.

1611 makes a great point, but there is a better set of passages that illustrate what he said.

If you notice, in 2 Peter 3, the "works" of those on earth (Jerusalem) are burned up, meaning they amount to nothing. All the works of sacrifice, observing the Law and all the things added to the Law which was strictly enforced by punishment of death got those people nothing. When they perished (in the fires of Jerusalem) nothing they did amounts to anything ("their works were burnt up") and they all, every last one of them, were condemned to hell. The companion passage to 2 Pet 3:10 is Rev 14:9-11. This is where you see the judgment.

Now look conversely at Rev 14:[SUP] 13 [/SUP]Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

Now we see that the works of the righteous follow them and they are rewarded for their works. Their "works" are not burned up.

As I said, there is both spiritual and literal fulfillment of these passages. The actual temple works were also burned up.


 
Has anyone noticed that nowhere does it say that the 144 000 are Jewish evangelists?
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Very observant of you Bogadile! You're thinking for yourself and not following the beaten path. To answer the question, probably the same people who identify the army of 200 million that the four angels gather at the 6th trumpet, as being the kings of the east, when there is nothing in the context that would support that. Don't get me wrong, they could be evangelists, but it just doesn't say. They are referred to as servants, the redeemed from the earth, purchased from among mankind, those who did not defile themselves with women (male child) and those in whose mouths no lie was found.
 
KJV1611 said:
This is where NEW information should change our doctrine instead of adding 2000 years or "double meaning" lol.
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Don't forget what started all of this. There wouldn't have been an olivet discourse if this conversation hadn't taken place:

Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

How were they "thrown down?"

in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved...

So, what is being dissolved? The deeds of the ungodly, yes, but those man-made structures also. They were called, "works" by the people of that day. Again, it is how they talked, not how we talk. Per Josephus:

Now although any one would justly lament the destruction of such a work as this was, since it was the most admirable of all the works that we have seen or heard of, both for its curious structure and its magnitude, and also for the vast wealth bestowed upon it, as well as for the glorious reputation it had for its holiness...
 
Ahwatukee said:
Very observant of you Bogadile! You're thinking for yourself and not following the beaten path. To answer the question, probably the same people who identify the army of 200 million that the four angels gather at the 6th trumpet, as being the kings of the east, when there is nothing in the context that would support that. Don't get me wrong, they could be evangelists, but it just doesn't say. They are referred to as servants, the redeemed from the earth, purchased from among mankind, those who did not defile themselves with women (male child) and those in whose mouths no lie was found.
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They were the Christian Jewish Church on Mount Zion just prior to the War. You didn't mention that they were the "firstfruits" of all those saved, before there was any Gentile church, this church was established.

John 4:22: You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

Rom 1:16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

So, who were the firstfruits? Hint: Not some 21st century group of Jewish kids.
 
Ahwatukee said:
Very observant of you Bogadile! You're thinking for yourself and not following the beaten path. To answer the question, probably the same people who identify the army of 200 million that the four angels gather at the 6th trumpet, as being the kings of the east, when there is nothing in the context that would support that. Don't get me wrong, they could be evangelists, but it just doesn't say. They are referred to as servants, the redeemed from the earth, purchased from among mankind, those who did not defile themselves with women (male child) and those in whose mouths no lie was found.
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Yes,they are Jewish and tribal. From 12 Jewish tribes.

They are first fruits. Meaning harvested first.

In rev 14 they are in heaven ,preceding the "ripe fruit" harvested during the GT.

In the parable of the wedding supper,there are 3 or 4 Distinct groups "harvested"....one of them refuses the invitation.

Pretribbers are the next harvested,then comes the others.
 
Bogadile said:
Not all Israelites are Jews, but all Jews are Israelites.

Not all americans are texans, but all texans are americans.
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Show me where Jesus separated it in your brackets.

Both words,Israel and Judah,refer to lineage.

Iow,territories are territories,and people are lineages.
I am guessing your analogy could include Hebrews as being Egyptian?
 
I am wondering what is the point?

Not all professing Christians are Christians,therefore.....

....?
 
heartofdavid said:
Yes,they are Jewish and tribal. From 12 Jewish tribes.

They are first fruits. Meaning harvested first.

In rev 14 they are in heaven ,preceding the "ripe fruit" harvested during the GT.

In the parable of the wedding supper,there are 3 or 4 Distinct groups "harvested"....one of them refuses the invitation.

Pretribbers are the next harvested,then comes the others.
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You are so close. The "pre-tribbers" were the 144K and they have already been harvested. They were the "wheat" harvested in the Spring.
 
Bogadile said:
All 12 tribes are Israel. This is such basic stuff man, if you do not know this, I suggest you read the Old Testament where the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel are separate, and how the story played out.
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Correct. But since the northern 10 tribes scattered over the known world after Babylon, how did 12,000 from each tribe end up on Mount Zion to be with the Lamb? Since they are with the Lamb and sealed by God before the "earth" (Jerusalem) and the "sea" (Rome) are harmed, we know these 12 tribes had to have been together before 70 AD at the latest and even a few years before that, right?
 
PlainWord said:
Correct. But since the northern 10 tribes scattered over the known world after Babylon, how did 12,000 from each tribe end up on Mount Zion to be with the Lamb? Since they are with the Lamb and sealed by God before the "earth" (Jerusalem) and the "sea" (Rome) are harmed, we know these 12 tribes had to have been together before 70 AD at the latest and even a few years before that, right?
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This is correct, they came to celebrate the feast on 66AD. Even James is written to "the twelve tribes scattered abroad"
 
Ezekiel 37:21-24 KJV
[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God ; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

[22] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

[23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
 
KJV1611 said:
What is your take on this parable? Is this not an accurate dexcription of the kingdom of heaven on earth right now?

Matthew 13:24-30 KJV
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

[26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

[27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

[28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

[29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

[30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
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Amen I agree. the Kingdom is where the Church is, because where the Church is, there Christ is.
 
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