The Rapture

[PlainWord]

this right here mon

Revelation 21GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

21 I saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and earth had disappeared, and the sea was gone. 2 Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, dressed like a bride ready for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, “God lives with humans! God will make his home with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There won’t be any more death. There won’t be any grief, crying, or pain, because the first things have disappeared.”

Have you considered an alternative and equally compelling explanation for this? In the OT, when Israel was obedient and faithful, they were blessed and God was with them. When they were disobedient and worshiped idols, they were punished usually by a foreign invasion and in some cases (as with 6th century BC Babylon and 1st century AD Rome), their city and temple were destroyed, the wicked killed, and the choice remnant carried away and God turned His back on them.

When they repented and the punishment was over, He restored them and refreshed the Land and returned to dwell with them (see Zec 8:7-8, Eze 11:17-20 for example).

The passage in Rev 21 talks about God dwelling with and they being His people, having restored them, right? It is my contention that Revelation deals mostly with the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem. They killed their Messiah and the veil was torn and God "left" them. Rev 21 is a restoration after that judgment only this time, the restoration doesn't come to national Israel. If so, who does it come to?

Whose residence is in the heavenly Jerusalem?
Who is Christ's bride?
What is spiritual death and life?
What was the "heaven and earth?"
When did they pass away?
What was the "sea?"
What is the temple of God today and who makes up the temple?

 

[Bogadile]

What was the "heaven and earth?"

Let me take a guess, heaven and earth is the heaven and earth?
The skies above and earth beneath.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't think so. There have been many shadows of the day of the Lord but only one day ofthe Lord's sacrifice - Christ. We disagree here I know.

The time of Christ's sacrifice is NOT the Day of the Lord. The DOTL has always been about judgment/punishment. In this case, it was specifically for rejecting Christ and killing Him that lead to the next (to them) DOTL in 70 AD. So, yeah, we disagree here.

 

[PlainWord]

Let me take a guess, heaven and earth is the heaven and earth?
The skies above and earth beneath.

Negative good buddy. In Revelation, the "heavens and earth" are Israel, see Isa 1:2, 13:13, 49:13, Joel 3:16 & 2 Pet 3:7.

The "sea" are the surrounding Gentile nations (specifically Rome and their cohorts). The imagery for "sea" comes from Isa 17:12, Dan 9:26, Lk 21:25, & Jud 1:13.

 

[Locutus]

Are we there yet??

 

[Bogadile]

see Isa 1:2, 13:13, 49:13, Joel 3:16 & 2 Pet 3:7.

Great verses and I can see your point. But how do you reconcile Peter comparing the future fire judgment with the Noah's flood? Which was the total destruction of everything and everyone on the earth. If it was only about Israel that was not similar to Noah's flood then. You must cut some slack on me there, unless you do not believe in the global flood.

 

[Locutus]

Peter is using the flood in an analogous manner.

2 Pet 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat

elements - Greek - stoicheion

if you look at the other uses of stoicheion in the New Testament you will find it is used in the context of religious or philosophical teachings:

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless [ elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

In the war of 66-70 AD the elements of Judaism were "burnt" with "fire".

 

[VCO]

This is probably one of the wildest accusations to have been hurled at the KJV -- "the Best Paraphrase Version". I'm sure the KJV translators would be rolling on the floor laughing if they were alive right now.

You have either misunderstood or misinterpreted their Preface to suit your own agenda. But if the KJV were a mere paraphrase, it would have been heaved out a long time ago. So let's go back to their Preface and see that the KJV was not a mere paraphrase but was meant to be THE BEST of many good translations:

But it is high time to leave them, and to show in brief what we proposed to ourselves, and what course we held in this our perusal and survey of the Bible. Truly (good Christian Reader) we never thought from the beginning, that we should need to make a new Translation, nor yet to make of a bad one a good one, (for then the imputation of Sixtus had been true in some sort, that our people had been fed with gall of Dragons instead of wine, with whey instead of milk; but to make a good one better, or out of many good ones, one principal good one, not justly to be excepted against; that hath been our endeavor, that our mark. To that purpose there were many chosen, that were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and that sought the truth rather than their own praise.

YOU MISSED HIGHLIGHTING the most important Statement in the entire paragraph, so I highlighted it in AQUA.

1611 Original KJV PREFACE
http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm



READ IT FOR YOUR SELF. They DID NOT go back to the Greeek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Texts. They used the Older English Translations with known errors {That is a quote from the 1611 PREFACE.}, and on hard to understand verses and known errors, they used the LATIN BIBLE to determine what the Translation should be. They were updating the Language and spellings, while correcting known errors. THAT IS WHAT A PARAPHRASE IS, NOT A TRANSLATION; paraphrasing from other sources instead of TRANSLATING the original Languages. And Just so you KNOW, the PREFACE in my first Center Column Reference KJV, is a DIFFERENT PREFACE than what the ORIGINAL TRANSLATORS posted in the front of their 1611 KJV; AND the PREFACE is DIFFERENT in my 1877 KJV PULPIT/FAMILY BIBLE.

 

[RedeemedGift]

Peter is using the flood in an analogous manner.

2 Pet 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat

elements - Greek - stoicheion

if you look at the other uses of stoicheion in the New Testament you will find it is used in the context of religious or philosophical teachings:

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless [ elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

In the war of 66-70 AD the elements of Judaism were "burnt" with "fire".

That's a good example of illegitimate totality transfer. Stoicheo literally means "order". You've completely butchered the contextual use of the word in 2 Peter 3:12

 

[Bogadile]

Peter is using the flood in an analogous manner.

Ehh sounds like a stretch. I think I will keep looking forward to the new heaven and new earth.

 

[VCO]

Are we there yet??

You are part of a FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”


We haven't even reached the end of DAY TWO YET.


2 Peter 3:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

 

[VCO]

Shirley Temple following/promoting Vernon McGee....no wonder he's confused....

Yer'd be better off following....

My Post 5711 above, apparently applies to you too.

 

[VCO]

I thought Shirley temple was dead

But the Scoffers are alive and KICKING.

 

[RickyZ]

Well, you are a few years older than me but I haven't taken good care of myself so chances are I get there first, LOL.

Some tell me I'm committing 'suicide by diet'. Race you there!

 

[J7]

Wrong kind of scoffing; but it all works figuratively

 

[heartofdavid]

Ehh sounds like a stretch. I think I will keep looking forward to the new heaven and new earth.

Makes me think how certain doctrines are bad news laden. Always going towards bad. Manfully rebuking any good news.

HHHMMMMMMM

 

[heartofdavid]

But the Scoffers are alive and KICKING.

You gotta look at the positive side.

Although they are bringing Hollywood and cartoons to a bible debate,at least they are " trying"

 

[RickyZ]

i believe it was the end of the world as the KJV says. Jesus brought in his kingdom ending the kingdom of this world.

Serious question now, not taunting ... Please explain to me how, if Jesus brought in his kingdom ending the kingdom of this world, why is this world running headlong into apostasy and the rejection of all things Godly?

Please don't expect me to believe that Christ is as inept at ruling as Trump is.

This to me is the biggest fail point. I just can't imagine how the Kingdom of God produces such un-Godly results.

 

[Nehemiah6]

They DID NOT go back to the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic Texts.

Yes, I have not only read it for myself, but I have a printed reproduction of the original King James Bible in my possession. You are not only TOTALLY misunderstanding the preface but you are also TOTALLY misrepresenting this Bible (which is the same as bearing false witness).

To prove that the King James translators were translating directly out of the Hebrew and Greek, all we have to do is look at the Frontispiece of the KJV. Here is what it says (in updated English):

THE HOLY BIBLE

CONTAINING THE OLD TESTAMENT

AND THE NEW

NEWLY TRANSLATED OUT OF THE ORIGINAL TONGUES

AND WITH THE FORMER TRANSLATIONS DILIGENTLY COMPARED AND REVISED

BY HIS MAJESTY'S SPECIAL COMMANDMENT

APPOINTED TO BE READ IN CHURCHES

IMPRINTED AT LONDON BY ROBERT BARKER

PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY

ANNO DOM. 1611

What does it mean when they say "Newly translated out of the original tongues"? Does it not mean that it was A BRAND NEW TRANSLATION out of Hebrew and Greek? At the same time all the former translations were diligently compared and then revised and incorporated into the KJV as far as they could. It is a very serious matter to bring false accusations against this venerable translation which is in fact the Word of God. I trust you will tender a public apology for your misleading statements.

 

[Bogadile]

Serious question now, not taunting ... Please explain to me how, if Jesus brought in his kingdom ending the kingdom of this world, why is this world running headlong into apostasy and the rejection of all things Godly?

Please don't expect me to believe that Christ is as inept at ruling as Trump is.

This to me is the biggest fail point. I just can't imagine how the Kingdom of God produces such un-Godly results.

The standard reply is that Christ reigns until He has conquered the last enemy which is death. This occurs at the Second Coming.