The Rapture
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I don't know that you can say every eye saw the resurrected Christ during those first 40 days. He appeared to:
Mary Magdalene
After that He appeared in "another form" to two (Cleopas and Simon)
Later He appeared to the 11
Then He appeared to Thomas
Other than Rev 1:7 (which I think happened in 66 AD) who else did the resurrected Christ appear to during those 40 days who recognized Him?
Mary Magdalene
After that He appeared in "another form" to two (Cleopas and Simon)
Later He appeared to the 11
Then He appeared to Thomas
Other than Rev 1:7 (which I think happened in 66 AD) who else did the resurrected Christ appear to during those 40 days who recognized Him?
Do you think Revelation 1:7 is talking about the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?
Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10 KJV
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Popeye (HeartofDavid),
You love to cite Rev 14 as proof of a future rapture. I think I just found a major problem.
In Rev 14:4, the 144K are called "firstfruits." Prior to this, in Romans 16:5 we find this:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Likewise greet the church that is in their house.Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.
This means to me that the first century church was the firstfruits, not the 21st or later century church, otherwise you are going to have a heck of a lot of firstfruits making them not first anymore. But there's more.
In 2 Cor 11 Paul calls the church at Corinth a "chaste virgin" betrothed to one husband, Christ. Now obviously the entire church were not likely all virgins. This simply means they never worshiped another god and were faithful to Jesus. Now see Rev 14:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
We have both firstfruits, and virgin found here matching up nicely with Rom 16 and 2 Cor 11.
Now as you know, they are 12K from each tribe. Following Babylon, the tribal system ended as the ten northern tribes scattered. However, Christian Jews who scattered, many of whom Peter wrote to in 1 Peter, would have returned to Jerusalem for the Feast of Unleavened Bread in 66 AD and would have gathered with their brethren at the Church of Jerusalem on Mount Zion.
Josephus and other early writers record a massive flight to Pella by these Christians. It all fits a first century existence for the 144K.
Then if you realize that the Beast was first century Rome, the rest of the chapter fits first century blowing away your entire deal. Sorry man. Love ya, but your whole deal just crashed.
You love to cite Rev 14 as proof of a future rapture. I think I just found a major problem.
In Rev 14:4, the 144K are called "firstfruits." Prior to this, in Romans 16:5 we find this:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Likewise greet the church that is in their house.Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.
This means to me that the first century church was the firstfruits, not the 21st or later century church, otherwise you are going to have a heck of a lot of firstfruits making them not first anymore. But there's more.
In 2 Cor 11 Paul calls the church at Corinth a "chaste virgin" betrothed to one husband, Christ. Now obviously the entire church were not likely all virgins. This simply means they never worshiped another god and were faithful to Jesus. Now see Rev 14:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
We have both firstfruits, and virgin found here matching up nicely with Rom 16 and 2 Cor 11.
Now as you know, they are 12K from each tribe. Following Babylon, the tribal system ended as the ten northern tribes scattered. However, Christian Jews who scattered, many of whom Peter wrote to in 1 Peter, would have returned to Jerusalem for the Feast of Unleavened Bread in 66 AD and would have gathered with their brethren at the Church of Jerusalem on Mount Zion.
Josephus and other early writers record a massive flight to Pella by these Christians. It all fits a first century existence for the 144K.
Then if you realize that the Beast was first century Rome, the rest of the chapter fits first century blowing away your entire deal. Sorry man. Love ya, but your whole deal just crashed.
Strange, we conservative Evangelicals have no problem understanding all of the Book of Revelation. BUT, we started out understanding that everything starting in Chapter 4 all the way out to the last verse in Chapter 22, is ALL FUTURE PROPHECY that has not happened YET.
My opinion, is if you got Chapters 4 thru 8 WRONG, you will never understand the rest either, until it is too late.
Agreed, but take a look at John 19. John 19 said Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the cross.
John 19:34-37 KJV
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
[35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
[36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
[37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
I'm not far off from your view, but I don't think you have the day of the Lord timing exactly right. I agree AD 70 was the destruction, but I think there is ONE specific day that is the day of the Lord, and that's the day I'm trying to pin down... or maybe that day is the start of the day of the Lord.
John 19:34-37 KJV
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
[35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
[36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
[37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
I'm not far off from your view, but I don't think you have the day of the Lord timing exactly right. I agree AD 70 was the destruction, but I think there is ONE specific day that is the day of the Lord, and that's the day I'm trying to pin down... or maybe that day is the start of the day of the Lord.
No, they are the result of the Successful Witnessing of the TWO WITNESSES, and actually SEEING GOD RAISE THEM FROM THE DEAD, causing a 144,000 to be sealed in their Mortal bodies, and the rest to become part of the Tribulation Saints.
Revelation 11:3-14 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. {Live on CNN and all other cable News Channels.}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.
Revelation 11:3-14 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. {Live on CNN and all other cable News Channels.}
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.
It's easy to say that nothing has happened yet and that everything is in the future by adding 2,000 years. By doing so, you can develop any theory you want. However, it removes your immanency doctrine and the blessed hope and command to watch that all those first century saint were given. It also ignores that much of anything was foretold about the destruction of Israel like, "ho hum, who cares? Not worth mentioning."
But seriously, I again issue my challenge : take every scripture you don't think applies anymore and rip them out of your Bible. If you think Matthew 24 is past and no longer bears on us, rip it out. If you think Revelation is past, rip it out. Why waste time studying and debating something that is a done deal and no longer applicable to us today?
The MRV just happens to have done that work for you!
The MRV just happens to have done that work for you!
https://www.gty.org/library/resources/sermons-library/scripture/1?book=66&chapter=All
From one of the best Bible Teachers in the World, back starting in 1982, Dr. John MacArthur's verse by verse Sermons through the whole book of Revelation. I heard it the first time on Christian Radio, then I listened to it three more times on 36 hours of cassette tapes. Here is where I picked up on the idea that this had to be an event SEEN BY SOME OF EVERY TRIBE AND VILLAGE IN THE WORLD, SEEING IT ON TV:
Revelation 11:9-13 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
NONE OF THOSE THINGS WERE EVEN POSSIBLE BEFORE CABLE TV.
THAT BLOWS PRETERISM CLEAN OUT OF THE WATER.
From one of the best Bible Teachers in the World, back starting in 1982, Dr. John MacArthur's verse by verse Sermons through the whole book of Revelation. I heard it the first time on Christian Radio, then I listened to it three more times on 36 hours of cassette tapes. Here is where I picked up on the idea that this had to be an event SEEN BY SOME OF EVERY TRIBE AND VILLAGE IN THE WORLD, SEEING IT ON TV:
Revelation 11:9-13 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
NONE OF THOSE THINGS WERE EVEN POSSIBLE BEFORE CABLE TV.
THAT BLOWS PRETERISM CLEAN OUT OF THE WATER.
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Hmm,when I was young I remember that from the things I heard I thought that Jesus was coming in the future. I was about 18 or so when I decided to read the bible all the way through but I must have been a slow reader because I was about 25 or so when I finished,lol. So to me from the way I saw to do this was to read it from page 1 to the very end(why I don't know,but that's what I thought and did). At the end I thought that like magic or something that me being the special sort of guy I am in my own mind that there was no way that I wouldn't just instantly know everything that there was to know.
As time went on and that didn't happen is when reality set in though. first I got married and wondered how I would be able to say to my wife the things she needed to know to live forever with God. Then our children were born and I thought about what I would say to them that would give them that same eternal life. After that I looked at my friends that I loved and I wondered what to say to them so that they would also not miss this,and then the rest of the people and saw to pity them too.That's when I knew that I did not know what to say to them.
Now I asked all of the preachers and people around me and all of them said they knew but the funny thing is that they all knew something different. and if I ask them why the reason they gave was that the others were filled with demons,were false prophets,just generally confused or one another adjective left to my discretion.
lol, I'm asking questions about Revelation 13 and 17 but your asking me about revelation 20-22 and if you think about it without resolving Revelation 13 and 17 then any and everyone who has a "position they hold" would only be rationalized out after resolving Revelation 13/17. If you consider what you are asking then if the beast and the false prophet are already in the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20 and the devil is bound in the pit, Revelation 20:2 then the mill. is present but if not then the mill. has not began.
So the mark is the hang up in the whole thing that is the heart of all of the debates of this nature(similar threads) but everyone from all the camps seem to drift of into the foggy grey area when it comes to that specific fulfilment, the mark,the beast and the false prophet and the binding of satin. So my position is the same as everyone else’s on the matter and so I ask the questions I do about it. There are 42 million teachers and 3 or 4 students, I am one of the three or four and when this is resolved I will confess my position.
As time went on and that didn't happen is when reality set in though. first I got married and wondered how I would be able to say to my wife the things she needed to know to live forever with God. Then our children were born and I thought about what I would say to them that would give them that same eternal life. After that I looked at my friends that I loved and I wondered what to say to them so that they would also not miss this,and then the rest of the people and saw to pity them too.That's when I knew that I did not know what to say to them.
Now I asked all of the preachers and people around me and all of them said they knew but the funny thing is that they all knew something different. and if I ask them why the reason they gave was that the others were filled with demons,were false prophets,just generally confused or one another adjective left to my discretion.
lol, I'm asking questions about Revelation 13 and 17 but your asking me about revelation 20-22 and if you think about it without resolving Revelation 13 and 17 then any and everyone who has a "position they hold" would only be rationalized out after resolving Revelation 13/17. If you consider what you are asking then if the beast and the false prophet are already in the lake of fire, Revelation 19:20 and the devil is bound in the pit, Revelation 20:2 then the mill. is present but if not then the mill. has not began.
So the mark is the hang up in the whole thing that is the heart of all of the debates of this nature(similar threads) but everyone from all the camps seem to drift of into the foggy grey area when it comes to that specific fulfilment, the mark,the beast and the false prophet and the binding of satin. So my position is the same as everyone else’s on the matter and so I ask the questions I do about it. There are 42 million teachers and 3 or 4 students, I am one of the three or four and when this is resolved I will confess my position.
Interesting but not surprising. John and the people who read it were taught the OT. It was their Bible so the visions John had were full of OT imagery so that they could understand what God wanted to communicate to them. This seems to be lost on many readers and Authors today. Instead they imagine God gave John visions of Tanks Helicopters and such instead. What use would that be to him back in the 1st century?
Good evening Tanakh,
Exactly! That is why Rev.4 onward are future, end of age, events "the things which must soon take place."
Consider this, king Ahaz was told by Isaiah saying "the Lord himself will give you a sign. A virgin will conceive and bring forth a son and his name shall be called Immanuel." This was fulfilled some 700 years later, which means that king Ahaz never saw its fulfillment.
I don't understand why is it so difficult for people to understand that Revelation 4 onward has nothing to do with the past, but deals with the end of the age as a future event and just has nothing to do with any of the previous centuries? Why can't God write information that is just for that last generation?
Exactly! That is why Rev.4 onward are future, end of age, events "the things which must soon take place."
Consider this, king Ahaz was told by Isaiah saying "the Lord himself will give you a sign. A virgin will conceive and bring forth a son and his name shall be called Immanuel." This was fulfilled some 700 years later, which means that king Ahaz never saw its fulfillment.
I don't understand why is it so difficult for people to understand that Revelation 4 onward has nothing to do with the past, but deals with the end of the age as a future event and just has nothing to do with any of the previous centuries? Why can't God write information that is just for that last generation?
Unfortunately for the futurist "theologies" John does not separate verses and chapters for future use, he brackets the beginning and end of his revelation with "the things which must soon take place":
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
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Rev 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
To claim chapters 4 onwards is 1970 years and counting in the future is to deny what John wrote and make him either a liar or a false prophet - good luck with that.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
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Rev 22:6 And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.
Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”
To claim chapters 4 onwards is 1970 years and counting in the future is to deny what John wrote and make him either a liar or a false prophet - good luck with that.