The Rapture

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Nov 23, 2013
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I concur except wouldn't use the qualifier "well" before. I would say, written just before the events of 70 AD took place.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place...for the time is near.


So what we have to do is figure out is which day was the day of the Lord. We know that the day of the Lord happens AFTER the sun, moon and stars go dark, and that happened at the 6th seal. I think the 6th seal is the resurrection of Christ.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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So what we have to do is figure out is which day was the day of the Lord. We know that the day of the Lord happens AFTER the sun, moon and stars go dark, and that happened at the 6th seal. I think the 6th seal is the resurrection of Christ.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
The Bible records events in cycles that are leading to the main event which is the second coming and judgement. To say that the resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 was the complete fulfillment of what is written in Revelation is like saying the fall of Babylon in the OT is the complete fulfillment of its destruction in Revelation.
 
May 11, 2014
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I did suggest someone who would fit. 666 is not the number of a persons name it is the number of a type of person.
See page 275 Post 5492
Great observation. Thanks for this friend. may God bless you and keep you.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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It just hit me that John was sending the book of Revelation to the seven churches and told them to count the number of the beast. So it must have been something that those 7 churches knew and could count, not something we are supposed to guess and calculate 2000 years later. I found a website that lists all the names that match the gematria of that number, such speculation.

So anyone got any ideas what it was back then that they identified the number with? I doubt it was ronald reagan.
Reagan's address in Santa Barbara was 668 - he called himself the neighbor of the beast :)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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You should know me better than this now VCO... If it ain't in the bible then it aint real. The only confusion I've ever had over this was when I believed comentaries instead of the bible.

The bible is clear - I was in the spirit on the LORD's DAY.... there is only one type of LORD'S DAY in the bible. Not to mention the fact from chapter 1 forward is obviously speaking of things that came AFTER the death, burial and resurrection.

This day has to be SPIRITUALIZED by futurist because it proves beyond any doubt that the book of Revelation was written well before any of the things written in it took place.

Oh, what a twisted theology. How much of your life is NOT IN THE BIBLE? Better throw your computer away. And your Car, etc.. etc.. etc.

And you had better cut these verses out of your BIBLE and throw them away too.


Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
 
May 11, 2014
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The Bible records events in cycles that are leading to the main event which is the second coming and judgement. To say that the resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 was the complete fulfillment of what is written in Revelation is like saying the fall of Babylon in the OT is the complete fulfillment of its destruction in Revelation.
Correct.
I find it very interesting that the book of Revelation takes so much from the Old Testament including Babylon, Gog and Magog, 666, Sodom, Egypt, the plagues and so on.
Amazing stuff.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Iamsoandso,

In Revelation 13:15 the ones who refuse to worship the beast(you say Vespasian,Titus ect./after the wound Nero) and if we examine history (Josephus wars) the Jews who denied Jesus as the messiah revolted,rebelled and refuse to acknowledge Vespasian or Titus as over them. They revolted against them at the cost of their lives and were killed.

In the same time frame the apostles said to the Christians to "HONOUR the authority" as "ordained" by God and use their money/pay tribute (Romans 13:1- 7 and 1Peter 2:13-15 ).
Again, we need to start with "audience integrity." You seem to be taking these two passages and applying them to the zealots inside Jerusalem. Is it appropriate to do so?

Paul was obviously writing to the Christians inside Rome during the early years of Nero (56-58 AD). This was before Nero began persecuting the Christians (64 AD). This time was known as Quinquennium Neronis, a relatively stable, decent and safe time to be a Christian in Rome.

1 Peter is traditionally thought to have been written later in Nero's reign (64-67 AD). Many question the authorship of 1 Peter some even placing it during the reign of Domitian after 81 AD. Regardless, 1 Peter was addressed to displaced Jews in the area of modern day Turkey. As such, neither passage you cite has any bearing on the coins used inside Jerusalem from 66-70 AD or any of the happenings inside Jerusalem or Israel as the audience was not under attack by Rome as they were living inside Rome or a submissive Roman province.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_shekel
So consider these two things from scripture and notice that if the Jews who stopped using the Tyrian shekel and minted their own to use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...Revolt_coinage and refused to obey Vespasian or Titus and they were killed because of it then if the ones who were killed because they would not worship the image of the beast then do they have the mark of the beast or the mark of God?
The "mark" was spiritual. Yes, the priests wore the phylacteries, an outward symbol of their authority under the Law as previously discussed, but the "mark of the beast" is a spiritual marking that they receive. According to Rev 14:10, those who receive "the mark" will ALSO experience God's wrath. This implies that not only those who receive the mark face God's wrath but also some of those who don't face God's wrath.

As you correctly point out, the zealots did not submit to Rome and thus did not receive the mark, nor did they worship Rome or it's Caesar(s). But are they subject to God's wrath?? Based on their actions I would certainly say yes!!

In Revelation every time the wrath,plagues ect. are poured out they are always poured on those who "have the mark,number the name" but not the ones who don't. Other than that anyone who adds to or take away the plagues are added,Revelation 22:18-19.
So, because of the verse below, I have to disagree with your statement (I changed to red above).

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

So, who was openly worshiping Titus and the image of Vespasian? According to Josephus, it was Titus' own solders.

AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

So, I read this to mean the Roman solders will also share in God's wrath along with the Jews inside. We know that most of the Jews left inside, after the Christians fled to Pella, were evil. We know God's wrath was against the tyrants and the priests and most of the people. But apparently He was equally upset with the Roman solders who worshiped Caesar.

So if you notice the mark's are on the wrong foreheads if you conclude the things you have because the ones who are refusing the money and authority of Rome(Vespasian) are the ones who are killed and the ones who Honoured the authority as ordained by God are not receiving God's wrath at all. It gets foggy grey from there and falls all apart if you take the path you are on.


The sealed of God, the 144K were gone, they left Jerusalem. Keep in mind there are two ways to die, physically and spiritually. In Rev 13 we have a physical death but in Rev 14 we have a future spiritual death.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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So what we have to do is figure out is which day was the day of the Lord. We know that the day of the Lord happens AFTER the sun, moon and stars go dark, and that happened at the 6th seal. I think the 6th seal is the resurrection of Christ.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
I place this shortly after the Feast of Unleavened Bread of 66 AD, just prior to the arrival of the Romans. I know you put little stock on the historical record but when dealing with prophesy whose fulfillment happens after the Bible was written, what else can we do? The only historian in Jerusalem at the time was Josephus and he records events that sure seem to match Rev 6.

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."



 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Oh, what a twisted theology. How much of your life is NOT IN THE BIBLE? Better throw your computer away. And your Car, etc.. etc.. etc.

And you had better cut these verses out of your BIBLE and throw them away too.


Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
He's perfect for the MRV.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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The Bible records events in cycles that are leading to the main event which is the second coming and judgement. To say that the resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 was the complete fulfillment of what is written in Revelation is like saying the fall of Babylon in the OT is the complete fulfillment of its destruction in Revelation.
I only understand up to chapter 8. The things written after chapter 8 may be about the complete fulfillment of the destruction of Babylon, but I don't think it is. However I'm open to whatever the truth is after chapter 8.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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Iamsoandso,



Again, we need to start with "audience integrity." You seem to be taking these two passages and applying them to the zealots inside Jerusalem. Is it appropriate to do so?

Paul was obviously writing to the Christians inside Rome during the early years of Nero (56-58 AD). This was before Nero began persecuting the Christians (64 AD). This time was known as Quinquennium Neronis, a relatively stable, decent and safe time to be a Christian in Rome.

1 Peter is traditionally thought to have been written later in Nero's reign (64-67 AD). Many question the authorship of 1 Peter some even placing it during the reign of Domitian after 81 AD. Regardless, 1 Peter was addressed to displaced Jews in the area of modern day Turkey. As such, neither passage you cite has any bearing on the coins used inside Jerusalem from 66-70 AD or any of the happenings inside Jerusalem or Israel as the audience was not under attack by Rome as they were living inside Rome or a submissive Roman province.



The "mark" was spiritual. Yes, the priests wore the phylacteries, an outward symbol of their authority under the Law as previously discussed, but the "mark of the beast" is a spiritual marking that they receive. According to Rev 14:10, those who receive "the mark" will ALSO experience God's wrath. This implies that not only those who receive the mark face God's wrath but also some of those who don't face God's wrath.

As you correctly point out, the zealots did not submit to Rome and thus did not receive the mark, nor did they worship Rome or it's Caesar(s). But are they subject to God's wrath?? Based on their actions I would certainly say yes!!



So, because of the verse below, I have to disagree with your statement (I changed to red above).

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

So, who was openly worshiping Titus and the image of Vespasian? According to Josephus, it was Titus' own solders.

AND now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy.

So, I read this to mean the Roman solders will also share in God's wrath along with the Jews inside. We know that most of the Jews left inside, after the Christians fled to Pella, were evil. We know God's wrath was against the tyrants and the priests and most of the people. But apparently He was equally upset with the Roman solders who worshiped Caesar.



The sealed of God, the 144K were gone, they left Jerusalem. Keep in mind there are two ways to die, physically and spiritually. In Rev 13 we have a physical death but in Rev 14 we have a future spiritual death.

lol,many a time have I ask that same question to full and partial preterist but as for your first answer this is a first in that you point out that certain things were spoken to different people as if you were rightly dividing letters as if disp.

In the second part if any of the phylacteries they wore as an outward sign being the mark if that was so then what does the beast have to do with it if the beast is Rome/Vespasian/Titus isn't that Jewish?

The part you are quoting from Josephus states that his generals were giving pledge that they were behind Titus and would give him their support as the net Caesar right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperator#Imperatores_in_the_Roman_Republic but the Aquila https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman) is what was brought there after the temple was burnt and it's surrounding buildings. Pax would have been their reasoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pax_(goddess) and is what was on the coins of Vespasian(among others) Fortuna as the goddesses of luck so would make no sense after a battle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna Mars maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_(mythology) These are some of the coins minted by Vespasian in his reign https://www.beastcoins.com/RomanImperial/II/Vespasian/Vespasian.htm . Juno Moneta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneta would also but the Aquila was the object of worship (note the only source is Josephus as if it is worshipped) the truth is that it was held in high regard and Legio 12 lost theirs to the Jews and ended up sent to guard the Euphrates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_XII_Fulminata .


The Ebionites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Pella are a completely separate sect who did not follow the same books as the apostles and believed that the new gentile converts should be circumcised and follow the law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites as did the Nazorains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect) were very similar in rejecting the new testament gospels but were a little different, the point is that the flight to Pella by these two sects who did not believe the same way as the 12 and Paul would hardly be those whom we consider Christian.
 
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Nov 23, 2013
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Oh, what a twisted theology. How much of your life is NOT IN THE BIBLE? Better throw your computer away. And your Car, etc.. etc.. etc.

And you had better cut these verses out of your BIBLE and throw them away too.


Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.
Biblical stuff is what I'm talking about VCO.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I place this shortly after the Feast of Unleavened Bread of 66 AD, just prior to the arrival of the Romans. I know you put little stock on the historical record but when dealing with prophesy whose fulfillment happens after the Bible was written, what else can we do? The only historian in Jerusalem at the time was Josephus and he records events that sure seem to match Rev 6.

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."



Why would God have me put my faith in the words of men who do lie rather than in his word which doesn't lie? :)

Nevertheless, keep in mind that there was an earthquake when Jesus died and another one when he rose again. The way I see it God wants me to look for earthquakes in the bible to understand those verses.

Also keep in mind that the sun was turned to darkeness and the moon to blood BEFORE the day of the Lord came.

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Why would God have me put my faith in the words of men who do lie rather than in his word which doesn't lie? :)

Nevertheless, keep in mind that there was an earthquake when Jesus died and another one when he rose again. The way I see it God wants me to look for earthquakes in the bible to understand those verses.

Also keep in mind that the sun was turned to darkeness and the moon to blood BEFORE the day of the Lord came.

Acts 2:20 KJV
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
I understand where you are coming from. However, your view requires you to assign Revelation chapters 1-6 (at a minimum) to the past as of when John wrote to them. This is illogical. John is clearly using future event language in chapters 2-3 when he tells the churches of Asia Minor, (not in existence in the time of Christ's death and resurrection), of things to come to them. Further, the 6th seal has those of the earth (Israel) in fear of the Lamb's pending wrath. Christ did not take revenge until the destruction of Jerusalem which ties much better to my 66 AD timing as it was then, at the Rebellion, that put Rome into action to destroy Jerusalem.

Further, the 6th seal has those to be subjected to the Wrath of the Lamb running and hiding in caves. This didn't happen following the resurrection. It did happen after Titus broke through to the temple.
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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lol,many a time have I ask that same question to full and partial preterist but as for your first answer this is a first in that you point out that certain things were spoken to different people as if you were rightly dividing letters as if disp.
I'm a partial preterist. I believe we are in Rev 20, "thousand years" of grace. I understand what full preterists think about Rev 21-22 and the new Jerusalem being the restored Jerusalem of the 2nd century, but I'm not there with them as the 12 gates were not named after the 12 tribes as all tribal connections are lost.

Any way, Peter and Pauls writings to Christian Jews living outside of Jerusalem is certainly important meaning, yes obey the authority of Rome. But the zealots did not obey the Law or the authority of Rome. They were nationalists with a very distorted view of the Law.

In the second part if any of the phylacteries they wore as an outward sign being the mark if that was so then what does the beast have to do with it if the beast is Rome/Vespasian/Titus isn't that Jewish?
It's part of the harlot relationship the priests of Israel had with Rome. It wasn't the mark although the location of where they wore it is interesting. You obvious know Josephus so remember what Titus said to the priests before he ordered them to be killed?

The Ebionites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Pella are a completely separate sect who did not follow the same books as the apostles and believed that the new gentile converts should be circumcised and follow the law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites as did the Nazorains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_%28sect%29 were very similar in rejecting the new testament gospels but were a little different, the point is that the flight to Pella by these two sects who did not believe the same way as the 12 and Paul would hardly be those whom we consider Christian.
The heretical Christian sects quickly rose as the disciples were ministering. Satan wasted no time in trying to corrupt the church. However, the Ebionites appear to be organic to Pella and the surrounding towns of the decapolis, they were not part of the 144K that fled to Pella. There is no record of the Ebionites before 130 AD at the earliest. Irenaeus in around 180 AD was the first to call them by name. The true Church of Jerusalem which was led by James, the Just, Brother of Christ was massive and it indeed went to Pella and stayed there until after the destruction of Jerusalem. Where they went after isn't clear.

So, what's your view on Revelation, I forgot. Are you a future rapturist?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I understand where you are coming from. However, your view requires you to assign Revelation chapters 1-6 (at a minimum) to the past as of when John wrote to them. This is illogical. John is clearly using future event language in chapters 2-3 when he tells the churches of Asia Minor, (not in existence in the time of Christ's death and resurrection), of things to come to them. Further, the 6th seal has those of the earth (Israel) in fear of the Lamb's pending wrath. Christ did not take revenge until the destruction of Jerusalem which ties much better to my 66 AD timing as it was then, at the Rebellion, that put Rome into action to destroy Jerusalem.

Further, the 6th seal has those to be subjected to the Wrath of the Lamb running and hiding in caves. This didn't happen following the resurrection. It did happen after Titus broke through to the temple.
Historically we don't know when John wrote the book, we don't even which John wrote the book... but what we do know is what the text says. John wrote the book BEFORE every eye shall see him (not his presence, but him), and they also which PIERCED HIM... agree or no?

Revelation 1:7 KJV
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Iamso,

Consider also this passage:

Mk 7:31: [SUP]31 [/SUP]Again, departing from the region of Tyre and Sidon, He came through the midst of the region of Decapolis to the Sea of Galilee.

Christ apparently walked in a big semi circle from Tyre to the Decapolis in which Pella is centrally located. People from this region also came to see Christ witnessed miracles and went home to tell about it as we see here.

Mt 4:25: Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Now I can't prove this but I believe Christ was preparing Pella to accept His church 36 years in advance. Rome had gone through Pella earlier too and Pella was in rebuilding mode about the time the Church of Jerusalem arrived which is what kept them safe there in the wilderness, the place God prepared for them as Rome wasn't going to attack again.


 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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Biblical stuff is what I'm talking about VCO.
So was I when I quoted the verses that went over your head:


Ephesians 4:11-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists,
some pastors and teachers, {They are the ones writing the Commentaries and Dictiontionaries, when is the last time you thanked GOD for them?}
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the training of the saints in the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, ⌊growing⌋ into a mature man with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.