The Rapture

[KJV1611]

KJV. I just had a break through regarding the mark. It is both spiritual and literal, as is much of Revelation. The image of the beast was worshiped in the temple in full sight of the Jews by way of the Roman ensigns bearing the imago of the Emperor, Vespasian.

There are no scriptures that speak of the image of the beast as a Roman ensign and the Jews didn't worship the Roman ensigns.

Check out this denarius and remember what Christ said about it? "Give until Caesar what is Caesar's and give until God what is God. In other words, "This is Caesar's crappy little idol, let him have it, but give me your hearts, souls and minds." Don't forget the Law concerning "worshiping graven images" which this certainly is.

On the back the inscription reads, "Divine Julius" stamped through sun rays. THE SUN, don't worship it!! On the front, the same graven image of Vespasian would be much larger on the ensigns carried before the Roman legions in battle and sacrificed to on the Temple in full view of all the Jews. Now, contrary to some beliefs, although prior to 66 AD, Jews were allowed to mint their own currency which usually contained an image of wheat or something, non-God like. But they could only use their currency when conducting trade among themselves. When conducting business with Rome, they used Roman currency. Any property titles being bought or sold had to have the seal of Caesar, his likeness stamped on them. After 70 AD, all those remaining in Palestine, of which some where Jews, and of course in Rome, all had to use Roman money as Jewish money was outlawed. So, you can't buy or sell without the name, the number of his name or the mark.

Revelation 13:16-17 KJV
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


The beast causes ALL, that means everybody, to take his mark. Where did Caesar require ALL to take a mark in their right hand or forehead? If it's going to fit, it's going to fit in all ways.

But there's more. Remember how angry Jesus got with the money changers? Remember how He lambasted the scribes and Pharisees and Sanhedrin for their greed? What does Paul say about "greed in Col 3?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience.

Greed = Idolatry

It was because of idolatry that Jerusalem and all those inside were punished with great tribulation, the likes never handed out by God before. But it gets better.

Judas betrayed Christ over what? 30 pieces of silver or "greed."

Now remember the Sanhedrin when they were looking for a reason to kill Jesus, blasphemy wasn't the real reason. The real reason was over money. They knew based on all Christ taught that if He ever became King, He would "drain the swamp." They all stood to lose everything, their status, their power, their wealth, etc. The one thing that kept them in power and in the money was....wait for it.

THE LAW

So, when God, using the Romans to destroy the Temple, He not only ended the Law, He ended their way of life and in most cases, their actual lives.

There is so much more. I was just getting started but have to run...

What does Jewish greed have to with taking the mark of the beast, worshipping the beast or not being able to buy or sell without the mark? You can piece together all kinds of unrelated scripture and histroy and make the beast and his mark be anything you want it to be.

Bottom line is, the bible and the bible alone will define who the beast is and what his mark is. We study the bible, not history to show ourselves approved. I'm sorry, I can't agree with any of that.

 

[heartofdavid]

On the contrary, I did offer scripture, you just don't believe. There is no way for you or anyone else to have all of those resurrections take place in Rev.20:4-6. And you cannot have the church resurrected and caught up in Rev.20:4-6 because that would put them through the wrath of God. So, I provided you with scriptural information as to why all of those stages are apart of the first resurrection.

I have been studying this information for over 40 years, so I have and continue to go over it with a fine tooth comb. These truths have obviously not been revealed to you yet, but they will when see the church removed from the earth prior to the revealing oft that antichrist.[/QUOTE

And you will know just how wrong you are when the Man of Sin begins his reign of terror and the "church" is still here suffering tribulation just as Jesus said. ( Please note that I understand the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.)
God's wrath does not began until after the seventh trump resurrection (FIRST RESURRECTION) of the saints and then the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath as Rev. 16 clearly teaches.

Not necessarily.

I am pretrib and I believe we will be rounded up and detained in large facilities. The rapture will probably happen during that time.

Could also happen before.

I also believe there will be mockers. Christian brothers berading us,telling us "where is your Jesus now". They will watch us depart

 

[VCO]

I'm looking for biblical proof, not whacko youtube videos.

You believe your wild THEORY, that NEVER had an ounce of biblical proof, and refuse to believe evidence that shows the Prophecy is about to be fulfilled, oh that is a choice bit of twisted logic. You may get your proof, but only after I and other Believers WATCHING for the Bridegroom, are called home first. We hope you are with us, but I do not know your heart; HE DOES.

The videos were not put out by us Christians who believe in the end times prophecies, but rather they are Advertisement Videos by Businesses. That is the direction they want to take us.

 

[Burninglight]

Where does the bible say having the mark sends someone to hell? And where does the bible say the mark is a blood pact with "the Antichrist"?

It says in Scripture "Whoever takes the mark will drink of the wrath of God;" that doesn't sound like paradise to me; now, you show me where in Scripture it doesn't mean hell bound or that it isn't a pact with the antichrist (Satan in the flesh the son of perdition). The burden of Scripture proof is on you, because the most logical inference that can be made is what I believe the Lord showed me from Scripture.

 

[Burninglight]

I am pretrib and I believe we will be rounded up and detained in large facilities. The rapture will probably happen during that time.
Could also happen before.

Of course there are no Scriptures to support this theory and there are Scripture to prove contrary to this. 2 Thes. 2 and Matthew 24 and many others but these are enough.

I also believe there will be mockers. Christian brothers berading us,telling us "where is your Jesus now". They will watch us depart

Possibly, but this could only happen "after the tribulation of those days" as Jesus states. What is so hard about accepting the Scriptures for what they say?

 

[Burninglight]

I'm looking for biblical proof, not whacko youtube videos.

Do you think that video is any less whacko than your end time theories? I am looking for Biblical proof not your unscriptural interpretation of the Lord's return before the tribulation. We have Jesus and Paul telling us it will happen after the tribulation. Why would anyone want to believe a false teaching that says "it will happen before the tribulation?"

 

[KJV1611]

You believe your wild THEORY, that NEVER had an ounce of biblical proof, and refuse to believe evidence that shows the Prophecy is about to be fulfilled, oh that is a choice bit of twisted logic. You may get your proof, but only after I and other Believers WATCHING for the Bridegroom, are called home first. We hope you are with us, but I do not know your heart; HE DOES.

The videos were not put out by us Christians who believe in the end times prophecies, but rather they are Advertisement Videos by Businesses. That is the direction they want to take us.

I'm totally confused on "my wild theory". I counted the number 666 and the only logical answer is 66 + 6... where does THEORY come into this?

 

[KJV1611]

It says in Scripture "Whoever takes the mark will drink of the wrath of God;" that doesn't sound like paradise to me; now, you show me where in Scripture it doesn't mean hell bound or that it isn't a pact with the antichrist (Satan in the flesh the son of perdition). The burden of Scripture proof is on you, because the most logical inference that can be made is what I believe the Lord showed me from Scripture.

Revelation 14:9-10 KJV
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The verses say "If any man worship the beast AND his image AND recieve his mark" will drink of the wine of the wrath of God. Doesn't that mean that you have to do ALL those things?

If the verses would have said "If any man worship the beast OR his image OR recieve his mark", then you would be correct.

 

[KJV1611]

Do you think that video is any less whacko than your end time theories? I am looking for Biblical proof not your unscriptural interpretation of the Lord's return before the tribulation. We have Jesus and Paul telling us it will happen after the tribulation. Why would anyone want to believe a false teaching that says "it will happen before the tribulation?"

What part of my counting the number of the beast is unscriptural?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Chirst is spoken of before he ascended to Father. We have a picture of Christ AS a slain Lamb in heaven. There are many things in the book that happened pre AD 90.

Perhaps. But the opening of the seals happened then.

John was in the spirit on the LORD'S DAY.... that would be the day of the Lord. Did you catch that? John recieved the vision on the Day of the Lord.

Sorry, but we need to distinguish very clearly between "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week when Christians worship) and "the day of the Lord" which is a period of very severe judgments, and will correspond to the Great Tribulation.

John was "in the Spirit" on the Lord's Day and that is a lesson for us to also be in the Spirit every Lord's Day. It is unfortunate that many Christians refer to this day as "Sunday" (the pagan designation) rather than "the Lord's Day" (Christian designation).

Revelation 1:10 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Please note what John Gill has to say about the Lord's Day in his commentary. It is very enlightening.
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
Revelation 1:10[/FONT]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day
Not on the Jewish sabbath, which was now abolished, nor was that ever called the Lord's day, and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day; much less the Jewish passover, but the first day of the week is designed; so the Ethiopic version renders it "on the first day"; and is so called just as the ordinance of the supper is called the Lord's supper, being instituted by the Lord, and the Lord's table, (1 Corinthians 10:21 ) ( 11:20 ) , and that because it was the day in which our Lord rose from the dead, ( Mark 16:9 ) ; and in which he appeared at different times to his disciples, ( John 20:19 John 20:26 ) , and which the primitive churches set apart for his worship and service, and on which they met together to hear the word, and attend on ordinances, ( Acts 20:7 ) ( 1 Corinthians 16:1 ) ; and Justin MartyrF26 tells us, who lived within about fifty years after this time, that on the day called (th tou) (hliou hmera) , "Sunday", (by the Greeks,) the Christians met together in one place, and read the Scriptures, and prayed together, and administered the ordinance of the supper; and this, he adds, was the first day in which God created the World, and our Saviour Jesus Christ rose from the dead; yea, Barnabas F1, the companion of the Apostle Paul, calls this day the eighth day, in distinction from the seventh day sabbath of the Jews, and which he says is the beginning of another world; and therefore we keep the eighth day, adds he, joyfully, in which Jesus rose from the dead, and being manifested, ascended unto heaven: and this day was known by the ancients by the name of "the Lord's day"; as by Ignatius F2, Irenaeus F3, Tertullian F4, Origen F5, and others; for it must be some day that was known by this name, otherwise it is mentioned to no purpose, because it would not be distinctive from others; for which reason it cannot merely design the day in which John saw this vision, because the Lord appeared on it to him, for this would not distinguish it from any other day. Some have conjectured that this was not the weekly Lord's day observed by the Christians, but the anniversary of Christ's resurrection; and so the Ethiopians still call Easter "Schambatah Crostos", the sabbath of Christ: to understand it of the former is best. Now, though John was driven from the house and worship of God, and could not join with the saints in the public worship of that day; yet he was employed in spiritual contemplations and exercises, and was under a more than ordinary influence of the Spirit of God; and his spirit or soul was wholly intent upon, and taken up with divine and spiritual things, with visions and representations that were made unto his mind, which he perceived in his spirit, and not with the organs of his body; he was in an ecstasy of spirit, and knew not scarcely whether he was in the body or out of it:

 

[Nehemiah6]

To all my pretribber futurist friends.

If everything I've been saying is wrong and the great tribulation wasn't the destruction of Jerusalem, please cite the verses that do contain the destruction of Jerusalem.

How did you miss Luke 21:10-22?

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke is not strictly chronological and that has led to a great deal of misunderstanding. Jerusalem compassed with armies and the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem were all part and parcel of the same Roman invasion of Judea around 70 AD.

 

[tanakh]

The number 666 appears in 2 Chronicles 9:13

Now the weight of Gold that came to Solomon in
one year was six hundred and sixty six talents
of gold.

The number represents Solomon who was hugely wealthy and
known for his wisdom that is why in Revelation it says Here is
wisdom. The number doesnt represent the letters of a mans
name. It represents a system led by man like Solomon who is
involved in buying and selling. Solomon also abandoned worship
of God and turned to Idols. He was also very powerful.

 

[PlainWord]

KJV, I wasn't finished had to run yesterday. Are you ready to see what the Mark of the Beast was!?!?! This mystery was just revealed fully to me yesterday.

Revelation 13:16-17 KJV
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


The beast causes ALL, that means everybody, to take his mark. Where did Caesar require ALL to take a mark in their right hand or forehead? If it's going to fit, it's going to fit in all ways.

I've been explaining how the Law ties to everything, the source of money for the wealthy elite in the first century was the Law and the Temple tax. Preserving the Law, preserved the Temple and the priests' source of great income. Any Messiah threatened the temple because a crowned king would declare Israel sovereign and would be sure to lead to a war with Rome and a destruction of the temple. This fear was the real motivation behind killing Messiah as admitted to here:

John 11: [SUP]48 [/SUP]If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place (temple) and our nation.”

Jerusalem was the richest city per capita in the world in the first century. The source of their great wealth was the temple. When Jesus threw out the money changers He claimed they had made the temple, "a den of thieves" whereby the merchants there use the Law as their source of income. It is no coincidence that Josephus called the tyrants who plundered the people, "robbers" and that they used the temple as their fortress (den).

Now I'm ready to show you what the "mark" was but first some back ground.

Deu 6: [SUP]6 [/SUP]These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. [SUP]8 [/SUP]You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

Check out also Deu 11:13-21 which contains this: [SUP]18 [/SUP]“You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

So what was on their hands and foreheads? Four Bible passages. The two above and these from Exo 13:1-10 which deals with the Feast of Unleavened Bread (which was when in 66 AD Josephus records the strange phenomenon in the sky and in the temple) and contains this phrase:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]It shall be as a sign to you on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the Lord’s law may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand the Lord has brought you out of Egypt.

Exo 13:11-16 contains this phrase:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]It shall be as a sign on your hand and as frontlets between your eyes, for by strength of hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.”

These four passages were required to be carried by all priests of Israel in leather pouches called, "Phylacteries." These phylacteries containing 4 passages of the LAW as I just identified were worn on their hand and upon their foreheads. Keep in mind that the high priests of those days were appointed by Rome and sold to the highest bidder. They paid money to Rome for the title of high priest and they used their office to rob the people and become filthy rich.

Look at Exo 13 again:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And it came to pass, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that the Lord killed all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore I sacrifice to the Lord all males that open the womb, but all the firstborn of my sons I redeem.’ [SUP]16 [/SUP]It shall be as a sign on your hand and as frontlets between your eyes, for by strength of hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.”

What did the high priest do? They sacrificed Jesus, the firstborn of Mary and of the Woman, Israel and they did it for money, Roman currency that contained the image of a deified Caesar, which they worshiped and which Christ called the love of, "the root of all evil."

But there's more. I'm just getting started...

 

[PlainWord]

How did you miss Luke 21:10-22?

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke is not strictly chronological and that has led to a great deal of misunderstanding. Jerusalem compassed with armies and the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem were all part and parcel of the same Roman invasion of Judea around 70 AD.

One passage? That's it? 65 Books all about Israel from start to Christ and through the acts of the disciples and their epistles and only one tiny passage that dealt with their dramatic, catastrophic and climatic end? This is what you'd have us believe?

I agree Luke 21 dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and since it did, the other Olivet passages (Mt 24 and Mk 13) did also and so did the end of Isaiah, and Daniel and other OT prophesies.

 

[Snoozy]

Agreed. Keep in mind also that Vespasian, Titus and Domitian were an unholy trinity all of whom did bad things to Jews and Christians alike. We are seeing a renewal of this evil spirit today.

now u are getting somewhere. this renewal thats coming, is that something Jesus will destroy with da brightness of his coming?

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[PlainWord]

In light of what I've just given you, read again Mat 23, the passage just before Jesus discusses the great tribulation to come upon them. Try to really get into His wrath with those who He is condemning, to those who commit the Unpardonable Sin. I just read this again and everyone who reads it should know who Christ's wrath was aimed at and if they can't see it, they never will.

The "Mark of the Beast" is found in this passage and it is the only place in the entire Bible where it is found, which I highlight below.

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, [SUP]2 [/SUP]saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. [SUP]6 [/SUP]They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, [SUP]7 [/SUP]greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ,[SUP][b][/SUP] and you are all brethren. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted. [SUP]13 [/SUP]“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[SUP][/SUP]

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[SUP][d][/SUP] the gold? [SUP]18 [/SUP]And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ [SUP]19 [/SUP]Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. [SUP]21 [/SUP]He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells[SUP][e][/SUP] in it. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]26 [/SUP]Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, [SUP]30 [/SUP]and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [SUP]34 [/SUP]Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

What does Rev 18 say?

For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

The blood money used to purchase the betrayal of Christ came from this temple tax, 30 pieces of silver. Keep in mind also, that it is with Rome that Jerusalem prostituted herself. Because a percentage of all the Temple Tax gets paid to Caesar as Titus reminds them below. Note also that Caesar Titus claims to have done what God did, give the Jews their Land. But the biggest thing Rome did in this inappropriate relationship was to let the high priests "practice" the Law thereby they all got rich.

It can therefore be nothing certainly but the kindness of us Romans which hath excited you against us; who, in the first place, have given you this land to possess; and, in the next place, have set over you kings of your own nation; and, in the third place, have preserved the laws of your forefathers to you, and have withal permitted you to live, either by yourselves, or among others, as it should please you: and, what is our chief favor of all we have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God with such other gifts that are dedicated to him; nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves...

 

[PlainWord]

now u are getting somewhere. this renewal thats coming, is that something Jesus will destroy with da brightness of his coming?

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

History is repeating. We very well may be in the last days of our age but little is told about what to expect but perhaps we can use history as our guide.

But the verse you quote happened back then. The word "consume" is better translated "bring to nothing." The Man of Sin wasn't literally consumed when Christ returned, he was "brought to nothing." The means that the victory Titus thought he had when he defeated Jerusalem and by extension - God, was brought to nothing by the appearance of Christ because Christianity was about to spread and overthrow all human governments.

The religious leaders dominated rule in Jerusalem for centuries and this would soon come to Rome under Constantine. The Church in Rome dominated the "nations of the world" and their leaders ever since.

But I do sense a tide of evil turning the world upside down again.

 

[Ahwatukee]

now u are getting somewhere. this renewal thats coming, is that something Jesus will destroy with da brightness of his coming?

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Morning Snoozy,

The following is what the scripture is referring regarding the Lord consuming with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming:

"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed signs on his behalf, by which he deceived those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. " - Rev.19:20

The above event takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

 

[PlainWord]

What does Jewish greed have to with taking the mark of the beast, worshipping the beast or not being able to buy or sell without the mark? You can piece together all kinds of unrelated scripture and histroy and make the beast and his mark be anything you want it to be.

Bottom line is, the bible and the bible alone will define who the beast is and what his mark is. We study the bible, not history to show ourselves approved. I'm sorry, I can't agree with any of that.

Sad, your eyes are only half open.

The Bible foretold what would happen and when (to that generation), but it does not tell you "who" and "how." We must turn to history for that. This is why I show a Bible passage, then a historical passage so you can see the fulfillment. The Bible doesn't continue and say, "okay, here's when this future event happened and who did it," right?

Here is another example. I've been discussing the wicked priests who have been in an adulterous affair with Rome and by extension Caesar. I've been saying that Titus, was the Man of Sin, the Lawless One, the one man the priests had put their faith in and whose "mark" they wore on their hand and forehead. Now look at 2 Thes 2 again in this light:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The deception was that Caesar Titus was their Messiah, their savoir to rescue them from the tyrants who had ended the daily sacrifice and thrown them out of the temple. Now look what Titus does to these priests once he takes over the temple. You wouldn't know this if you don't study history or had someone to tell you. Now here we are, 5 days later and Titus is still on the temple site, deciding who lives and who dies:

On the fifth day afterward, the priests that were pined with the famine came down, and when they were brought to Titus by the guards, they begged for their lives; but he replied, that the time of pardon was over as to them, and that this very holy house, on whose account only they could justly hope to be preserved, was destroyed; and that it was agreeable to their office that priests should perish with the house itself to which they belonged. So he ordered them to be put to death.

 

[Snoozy]

Morning Snoozy,

The following is what the scripture is referring regarding the Lord consuming with the spirit of his mouth and the brightness of his coming:

"But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed signs on his behalf, by which he deceived those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Both of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. " - Rev.19:20

The above event takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

yes im very well aware. im asking plainword to join us in reality-land