The Rapture

[PlainWord]

the only way to explain tha imminency verses is pre-trib rapture. without it they make no sense because they were expecting Jesus at any time but Paul and Jesus said certain things must happen first before da second advent.

http://garyfrazier.com/wp-content/uploads/Rapture_Second_Coming_Passages.pdf

and boy did they happen. Everything recorded in the Bible, is recorded in history. Josephus in read, Bible in blue..

But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them...

Dan 12: [SUP]10 [/SUP]Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Rev 16: [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Rev 19: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The whole point of that saying was that there was not a single creature anywhere in the universe qualified to open that book. Thus it became clear that only the Lamb of God Himself (the Creator) was fully qualified to open that book, and did open the book.

Hi Nehemiha6,

Since I have KJV on ignore, please tell him that, Yes, Jesus was in heaven and that because after those verses above that he posted, it states that Jesus takes the scroll out of the right hand of God the Father who is sitting on his throne, which is in heaven. It's just more of his unscriptural mumbo jumbo.

Furthermore, the scripture says "No one in heaven, or on earth or under the earth" was worthy to open the scroll. The reference to "no one in heaven" includes angels and men, those on the earth would refer to anyone living on the earth and those under the earth would refer to those who were/are in Sheol/Hades and possibly the angels that are in Tartartus.

As for whether Jesus was in heaven or not, when John hears that voice like a trumpet saying "come up here" John says "At once I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne standing in heaven. After that Jesus is seen taking the scroll out of the hand of the One who is sitting on the throne, which again is identified as being in heaven.

 

[PlainWord]

To all my pretribber futurist friends.

If everything I've been saying is wrong and the great tribulation wasn't the destruction of Jerusalem, please cite the verses that do contain the destruction of Jerusalem. Most of the Bible chronicles the history of Israel so we'd expect the end of the nation to merit some major discussion, at least as much as dealt with the Babylonian captivity.

Think of the movie, "A Few Good Men." Israel of 606 BC was going into captivity for 70 years and all the OT prophets devoted many chapters to it. Israel of 70 AD was going away for 1,878 years and nobody made a call, wrote about it, or packed a bag????

 

[Locutus]

and boy did they happen. Everything recorded in the Bible, is recorded in history. Josephus in read, Bible in blue..

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Rev 16: [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Rev 19: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

This is the problem with the woody literalist PL - the account of Josephus is strikingly similar with this:


2 Kings 6:17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the LORD opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So they missed the first resurrection?

Rev. 20:6 say that only those in the first resurrection can escape the second death.

I am sure you have an explanation for that that can not be supported by Scripture.

Yes, they will have missed the first phase of the first resurrection. The church period ends when the Lord appears and gathers the church. There will be those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and that because they will have not been believers prior to when the church is gathered.

The phrase "first resurrection" is misunderstood because expositors interpret it as "only resurrection," which it is not. There are several resurrections and catching away's that belong to the first resurrection. The first resurrection could be understood as, any resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years:


* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection

* The church at his appearing

* The male child/144,000 (caught up)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

Anyone would be hard-pressed to have all of those resurrections and catching away, as all taking place in Rev.20:4-6 and that because it would be impossible, seeing that they all take place at different times. It just so happens that the phrase is used in the description of the great tribulation saints in Rev.20:4-6. The gathering of the church is also part of the first resurrection.

Anyone who attempts to put the church as being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, runs into the problem of putting the church through the entire wrath of God, because the great tribulation saints are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which is after the completion of God's wrath.

 

[PlainWord]

This is the problem with the woody literalist PL - the account of Josephus is strikingly similar with this:


2 Kings 6:17 Then Elisha prayed and said, “O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the LORD opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Right!! I'm not a huge Josephus fan because he basically was a Titus apologist not saying a fraction of the evil of the man since it was Titus who commissioned Josephus to write the "War of the Jews" in 75 AD. But it's all we have of history for that area in that era. In fact, Josephus took the name, Titus Flavius Josephus. But even sugar coating things, you can tell Titus did evil and was evil.

 

[Locutus]

Right!! I'm not a huge Josephus fan because he basically was a Titus apologist not saying a fraction of the evil of the man since it was Titus who commissioned Josephus to write the "War of the Jews" in 75 AD. But it's all we have of history for that area in that era. In fact, Josephus took the name, Titus Flavius Josephus. But even sugar coating things, you can tell Titus did evil and was evil.

I think he did sugar coat somethings - but you're right - his is the only history we have on the war. To discount it on the basis of some or the errors he made in other writings is to wilfully blind.

 

[PlainWord]

[FONT=&quot]In 1 Kings 18 Elijah calls down fire from heaven and then orders all those who would not worship the god of the Israelites to be killed. Like the prophet Elijah, Titus, the false prophet of Revelation 19:20, also called down fire from heaven before ordering all those who would not worship Caesar, the god of the Romans, to be killed. After desecrating the temple with pagan worship, Caesar Titus declared to his Jewish enemies “that he would henceforth spare nobody.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] With this order to kill the remaining Jews, Titus becomes a type of Elijah who after calling fire down from heaven ordered all those who would not worship God to be killed (1 Kings 18). As predicted in Revelation 13:15, the Jews refusing to participate in this unholy rite were, in fact, slaughtered. And Jerusalem was left desolate.[/FONT]

 

[PlainWord]

I think he did sugar coat somethings - but you're right - his is the only history we have on the war. To discount it on the basis of some or the errors he made in other writings is to wilfully blind.

Agreed. Keep in mind also that Vespasian, Titus and Domitian were an unholy trinity all of whom did bad things to Jews and Christians alike. We are seeing a renewal of this evil spirit today.

 

[Persuaded]

Yes, they will have missed the first phase of the first resurrection. The church period ends when the Lord appears and gathers the church. There will be those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and that because they will have not been believers prior to when the church is gathered.

The phrase "first resurrection" is misunderstood because expositors interpret it as "only resurrection," which it is not. There are several resurrections and catching away's that belong to the first resurrection. The first resurrection could be understood as, any resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years:


* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection

* The church at his appearing

* The male child/144,000 (caught up)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

Anyone would be hard-pressed to have all of those resurrections and catching away, as all taking place in Rev.20:4-6 and that because it would be impossible, seeing that they all take place at different times. It just so happens that the phrase is used in the description of the great tribulation saints in Rev.20:4-6. The gathering of the church is also part of the first resurrection.

Anyone who attempts to put the church as being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, runs into the problem of putting the church through the entire wrath of God, because the great tribulation saints are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, which is after the completion of God's wrath.

What you have done here is offer your OPINION.
It is your OPINION that first does not mean first.
You can offer no Scripture to support that the resurrection is in phrases.
It is just a way to justify a false teaching.
It is you OPINION that tribulation is not tribulation, but is God's wrath.
You say you have spent 40 years studying Revelation, but all you can offer is opinions and speculations based on your PRIVATE interpretation of Scripture.
I have no doubt that you truly believe what you teach, but you have deceived yourself into believe a lie.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Every word is there or not there for a reason. Realizing that Jesus wasn't in any of those places means at that point in time he was ministering to the spirits in hell.

Well that would be an IMPOSSIBILITY.

John was receiving his revelations around 90 AD where Christ was in Hades (Hell) in 30 AD, and just for three days and three nights. That is a gap of sixty years,

 

[Ahwatukee]

What you have done here is offer your OPINION.
It is your OPINION that first does not mean first.
You can offer no Scripture to support that the resurrection is in phrases.
It is just a way to justify a false teaching.
It is you OPINION that tribulation is not tribulation, but is God's wrath.
You say you have spent 40 years studying Revelation, but all you can offer is opinions and speculations based on your PRIVATE interpretation of Scripture.
I have no doubt that you truly believe what you teach, but you have deceived yourself into believe a lie.

That's funny, because I just did provided scripture showing that the first resurrection has phases. They can't all take place at Rev.20:4-6. However, I have shared with you a deeper understanding regarding this issue. You are free to believe it or believe what you want.

The truth is that, the church cannot be gathered at Rev.20:4-6, because that resurrection takes place after God's wrath has been completed and after Christ has returned to the earth. Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then they cannot be those who are in view as being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, which is referring to the great tribulation saints only.

 

[VCO]

Why is it clearly a literal mark? I don't have the mark and I don't buy nor sell OIL.

It is a mark that CONTROLS ALL BUYING AND SELLING ON THE PLANET, and that is literally what RFID Chips will do through a Super-Computer.

[video=youtube;eob532iEpqk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk[/video]


LOOK AT THIS NEW VIDEO, and how long before they realize too many cellphones can are lost or stolen, thus even this will be replaced with an implanted RFID CHIP:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmMk1Myrxc

 

[KJV1611]

Well that would be an IMPOSSIBILITY.

John was receiving his revelations around 90 AD where Christ was in Hades (Hell) in 30 AD, and just for three days and three nights. That is a gap of sixty years,

Chirst is spoken of before he ascended to Father. We have a picture of Christ AS a slain Lamb in heaven. There are many things in the book that happened pre AD 90.

John was in the spirit on the LORD'S DAY.... that would be the day of the Lord. Did you catch that? John recieved the vision on the Day of the Lord.

Revelation 1:10 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[KJV1611]

It is a mark that CONTROLS ALL BUYING AND SELLING ON THE PLANET, and that is literally what RFID Chips will do through a Super-Computer.

[video=youtube;eob532iEpqk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk[/video]


LOOK AT THIS NEW VIDEO, and how long before they realize too many cellphones can are lost or stolen, thus even this will be replaced with an implanted RFID CHIP:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrmMk1Myrxc

I'm looking for biblical proof, not whacko youtube videos.

 

[Persuaded]

That's funny, because I just did provided scripture showing that the first resurrection has phases. They can't all take place at Rev.20:4-6. However, I have shared with you a deeper understanding regarding this issue. You are free to believe it or believe what you want.

The truth is that, the church cannot be gathered at Rev.20:4-6, because that resurrection takes place after God's wrath has been completed and after Christ has returned to the earth. Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then they cannot be those who are in view as being resurrected in Rev.20:4-6, which is referring to the great tribulation saints only.

That deeper understanding is all in your mind.
You have closed your mind to the possibility that you might be wrong.
You offered no Scripture to prove that the first resurrection comes if phases, even if you believe you did.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That deeper understanding is all in your mind.
You have closed your mind to the possibility that you might be wrong.
You offered no Scripture to prove that the first resurrection comes if phases, even if you believe you did.

On the contrary, I did offer scripture, you just don't believe. There is no way for you or anyone else to have all of those resurrections take place in Rev.20:4-6. And you cannot have the church resurrected and caught up in Rev.20:4-6 because that would put them through the wrath of God. So, I provided you with scriptural information as to why all of those stages are apart of the first resurrection.

I have been studying this information for over 40 years, so I have and continue to go over it with a fine tooth comb. These truths have obviously not been revealed to you yet, but they will when see the church removed from the earth prior to the revealing oft that antichrist.

 

[KJV1611]

Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

John recieved his vision on the day of the Lord, he was told to write what he see's in a BOOK and send it to the 7 literal churches which are in Asia.

According to the bible, when was the book of Revelation written?

 

[Persuaded]

On the contrary, I did offer scripture, you just don't believe. There is no way for you or anyone else to have all of those resurrections take place in Rev.20:4-6. And you cannot have the church resurrected and caught up in Rev.20:4-6 because that would put them through the wrath of God. So, I provided you with scriptural information as to why all of those stages are apart of the first resurrection.

I have been studying this information for over 40 years, so I have and continue to go over it with a fine tooth comb. These truths have obviously not been revealed to you yet, but they will when see the church removed from the earth prior to the revealing oft that antichrist.[/QUOTE

And you will know just how wrong you are when the Man of Sin begins his reign of terror and the "church" is still here suffering tribulation just as Jesus said. ( Please note that I understand the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.)
God's wrath does not began until after the seventh trump resurrection (FIRST RESURRECTION) of the saints and then the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath as Rev. 16 clearly teaches.

 

[PlainWord]

KJV. I just had a break through regarding the mark. It is both spiritual and literal, as is much of Revelation. The image of the beast was worshiped in the temple in full sight of the Jews by way of the Roman ensigns bearing the imago of the Emperor, Vespasian.

Check out this denarius and remember what Christ said about it? "Give until Caesar what is Caesar's and give until God what is God. In other words, "This is Caesar's crappy little idol, let him have it, but give me your hearts, souls and minds." Don't forget the Law concerning "worshiping graven images" which this certainly is.

On the back the inscription reads, "Divine Julius" stamped through sun rays. THE SUN, don't worship it!! On the front, the same graven image of Vespasian would be much larger on the ensigns carried before the Roman legions in battle and sacrificed to on the Temple in full view of all the Jews. Now, contrary to some beliefs, although prior to 66 AD, Jews were allowed to mint their own currency which usually contained an image of wheat or something, non-God like. But they could only use their currency when conducting trade among themselves. When conducting business with Rome, they used Roman currency. Any property titles being bought or sold had to have the seal of Caesar, his likeness stamped on them. After 70 AD, all those remaining in Palestine, of which some where Jews, and of course in Rome, all had to use Roman money as Jewish money was outlawed. So, you can't buy or sell without the name, the number of his name or the mark.

But there's more. Remember how angry Jesus got with the money changers? Remember how He lambasted the scribes and Pharisees and Sanhedrin for their greed? What does Paul say about "greed in Col 3?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience.

Greed = Idolatry

It was because of idolatry that Jerusalem and all those inside were punished with great tribulation, the likes never handed out by God before. But it gets better.

Judas betrayed Christ over what? 30 pieces of silver or "greed."

Now remember the Sanhedrin when they were looking for a reason to kill Jesus, blasphemy wasn't the real reason. The real reason was over money. They knew based on all Christ taught that if He ever became King, He would "drain the swamp." They all stood to lose everything, their status, their power, their wealth, etc. The one thing that kept them in power and in the money was....wait for it.

THE LAW

So, when God, using the Romans to destroy the Temple, He not only ended the Law, He ended their way of life and in most cases, their actual lives.

There is so much more. I was just getting started but have to run...