The Rapture

[J7]

10 virgins is about setting in for the long haul

Same as it ever was

 

[J7]

Maybe because the kingdom of God is within the true believers!

Nice.

So the Kingdom of God had a definite starting point. A date.

And that Date was the giving of Revelation.

 

[Burninglight]

No,too thin.
He said "some of you standing here"

So how do you know John wasn't standing there at the time? He saw everything and we have read what he saw, but we haven't heard what he heard. Why do you doubt Jesus? If He said it, it happened exactly as He said. You doubting Him doesn't make it false or thin.

Besides,rev was written around ad 90. I suspect all the disciples were dead by then.

What makes you think John wasn't around to see what Jesus spoke of or anyone else standing there at the time, and what makes you think John didn't write Revelation?

IOW they did see death
(thats assuming the "john's vision" qualifies as actually seeing him coming)

They saw death, but you cannot prove they didn't see Jesus coming in His kingdom. You are projecting by saying what I share is thin.

 

[J7]

John was one of those standing there.

 

[Burninglight]

Nice.

So the Kingdom of God had a definite starting point. A date.

And that Date was the giving of Revelation.

Jesus didn't give a date in Revelation, but you'll find these verse in Luke and we know it had to have been around the time Jesus walked the earth:
Luke:
English Standard Version
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

American Standard Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[J7]

shall - future tense. Why?

 

[Burninglight]

1) show us in history where there were flying scorpions that stung all men on the planet save the 144k Jews.
2) show is in history fiery hailstones
3) show is the mark that was required.

1. there is no Scripture I know of speaking of stinging flying scorpions, but there is a creature that stings men giving great pain for months 2. the fiery hail stones came down as part of the ten plagues during the time of Moses 3 the mark of the beast is 666

Margaret had a dream/vision that I suspect you heard was some pretrib rapture.
In practically the same breath she elaborated that the church needed to go through the GT for "cleansing"

Who cares what hamburger vision McDonald had. Darby turned her dream like vision into a pretribulation rapture doctrine that has plague Christianity with false doctrine that is not Scriptural.

She was post trib rapture big time. One of your major points is a total fluke

What is your point? This comment contributes nothing to the thread.

 

[Ahwatukee]

there is no Scripture I know of speaking of stinging flying scorpions,

This a perfect example of not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

At the opening of the 5th trumpet, a star symbolically representing an angel, will open the Abyss releasing these demonic beings resembling locusts, with tails and stingers like that of a scorpion. They are also described as having faces like human faces, hair like women's hair and teeth like lions teeth. Their king is that angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who comes up out of the Abyss and kills the two witnesses.

So either you haven't read the scripture or you have, but have spiritulized it. You have to understand that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all literal events that are going take place, which is how God is going to carry out his coming wrath.

 

[PlainWord]

I hope you're right. Don't think you are, but I hope so.

I believe we need to get ready. And God recently led us 2,000 miles across the country, into the wilderness, to a house with a built in storage bunker. Funny how that works.

If you just happen to find yourself facing all this, head for southwest Minnesota. We'll be multiplying the fishes and loaves out there.

That's so awesome. I wish I had a bunker to protect me from N Korea. I live in Vegas so I have to worry about fat boy Kim getting nukes.

If you check out Rev 14:8 you see that Babylon has fallen. Babylon was first century Jerusalem, the mother of all harlots. She was "prostituting" herself with the beast, Rome. She was worshiping Caesar as her king and not worshiping Christ. Rome was the beast that carried her. They had a very "inappropriate" relationship.

If you go to Rev 14:9-11 and replace "beast" with first century "Rome", you see that you had to worship Caesar and his image in order to receive the mark of the beast's name. Once it is understood that the wrath of God mentioned here was His wrath against Jerusalem, the city that killed His Son, then we can time this period to 64 - 70 AD. Those who "drink of the wine of the wrath of God" perished in Jerusalem and most of them were Jews and none of them were Christian Jews.

The priests of that era of around 60-66 AD would offer up sacrifices (worship) the gods of Rome and Caesar in the Temple of God. Most people don't know this. Finally the Governor of the Temple, Eleazar, put a stop to it infuriating the priests who fear retribution from Rome. Anyway, stopping the sacrifices to Rome led to the War of the Jews with Rome and the destruction of the temple and city and end of the Nation of Israel for 1878 years.

In Ephesus, inscriptions to Nero have been found where he was called, "Almighty God" and "Savior." Nero demanded Emperor worship and from 64 to his death of 68, he "made war against the saints," the first emperor to do so for a period of exactly 42 months. Nero was even called a beast by contemporary philosopher, Apollonius of Tyana. According to Tertullian, Nero was the first to assail the Christian sect with the imperial sword and at age 30, he committed suicide by sword. "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword." I could go on but tired.

 

[KJV1611]

Zephaniah 1:7-8 KJV
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God : for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

[8] And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lord's sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

Undeniable proof that the day of the Lord happened at the first coming and this lunacy about the "last 7 years" continues lol.

 

[Snoozy]

Now look what is recorded in history by Josephus, the Jewish historian, who was with Titus.

for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

very interesting. but are u saying that Jesus' parousia or presence returned in the year 70 ? but i say it "returned" earlier at pentecost when the Holy Spirit came. is that not presence? thats why i think that da parousia word means a physical return. before Jesus ascends to the Father remember what Peter asks him? Peter says will u at this time restore the kingdom to israel? they were waiting for dat kingdom not just a presence return id say. all over da old testament the restoration of Israel's kindgom is promised.

also i wanna say i dont know greek or hebrew so i prefer to keep it in english. i like my english bible i believe it da translators know better than us. i read a king james bible and i can understand it its good.

 

[tanakh]

I am new here and would like to add my 2 cents worth. I don't belong to a church or follow any doctrines but I read the scriptures and study the wording in its original text and compare to the Hebrew text. I have a paper I put together on this topic.

I’m sure you’ve heard over and over again in churches all over the world, that when the Messiah returns we will all be whisked away into the sky, and taken to a place of safety while the Son of God puts Satan and the false prophets and all the evil doers into the pit of Hell.
Have you ever studied your world history pertaining to the fall of the Roman Empire and the beginning of the dark ages? Do you have a spiritual ear to hear and a willingness to learn the truth? Research over the years reveals the rapture teaching‑ or theory‑ is reported to have one of few origins. The most popular supposition is that the rapture teaching began over 175 years ago in Great Britain during one of the meetings of a fundamentalist group named the Plymouth Brethren. It is reported that during this meeting, a woman rose up and exclaimed that the Holy Ghost had informed her in a dream that when the tribulation came upon the earth, all the believers in Messiah would be taken into heaven and thereby escape the ensuing holocaust. The singular experience of this woman, as is told, was accepted with enthusiasm, thus giving birth to the teaching of the 'rapture' of the saints. What If I told you that the rapture of the church had already happened more than a thousand years earlier, would you be willing to listen to me?, or throw this article away and go about your way thinking I’m some kind of a nut. I can only hope that you will be open enough to listen to the facts from history and what the Bible has to say.
Let’s start with the definition of the word rapture,
1: The state of being rapt [carried away with lofty emotion] or transported; ecstatic joy; ecstasy. 2: An expression of excessive delight. {Webster’s contemporary dictionary}. The word rapture is not used in the scriptures, so we must use the dictionary to find its meaning. So now we can see it’s an emotional feeling, rather than an actual lifting of the body or soul. OK, so now what does the Bible say you must be asking? Well let’s turn in the Bible and see what it has to say, In Matthew, 24:30 all the Tribes [races] of the earth mourn, and they shall see the SON OF MAN coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN with power and great glory. 24:31 and They [ the tribes] shall gather together His [the Messiah] elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew, 26:64 Hereafter (from now on) shall ye see the SON OF MAN sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN. Acts, 1:9 and A cloud received him out of their sight. 1:11 why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Have you noticed the use of the word cloud? Let’s take a close look at the word cloud and what this word means;
1: A mass of visible vapor or particles floating in the atmosphere.
2: Any cloudlike mass, as of birds, dust, steam, etc.
3: Something that obscures. {Webster’s contemporary dictionary}


Now let’s look at some of the ways the word cloud is used in the scriptures; turn if you will to Exodus, 13:21 and the Spirit of God went before them by day in a pillar of A CLOUD, to lead them the way. 14:20-21 and the Angel of God came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was A CLOUD and darkness to them. Exodus, 19:9 and God said unto Moses, Lo I come unto thee in A THICK CLOUD, that the people may hear when I speak with thee,. Are you starting to get a picture here, the cloud is God Himself. Yahweh, [God] is a spirit and as such deals with spirit, but in order for man to see, He must create A CLOUD like mass for us to see HIM. Christ said that no man [flesh] can enter into the realm of the spirit. OK you say, that proves your point, Christ is coming in a cloud. What I’m trying to point out is that the CLOUD here is a SPIRIT, not flesh. We can also see that cloud {s} doesn’t necessarily mean a literal cloud in the sky.

Light In John 1:4
the Word was Yasha. In HIM was life, and the life was the LIGHT of man.

Light in John 8:12
Yasha said { I am the Light of the world}

Light in John 9:5
as long as I am in the world, I am the Light Now let’s take a look at history, (remember the dark ages{Encyclopedia Britannica refers to it as being a period of intellectual darkness and barbarity} taught in history, this time period was from approximately 400-500AD until 1400-1500AD.) The teaching of Yasha and the Kingdom of Yah ended with the fall of the Roman Empire which history shows to have been about 350-400AD, this is when the church was taken away. Revelation 2:2-3 says for a 1000 yrs. the devil would be put into the abyss [that was during this the Dark Ages time period]. 2 Cor. says that Satan comes as light, so if he is removed, then there was NO light in the world (no light from Christ or from Satan}. Light means in this instance understanding or lack of ). 2 Cor.11, even the devil appears as light.
It wasn’t until the early church opened up its doors to all people that scriptural understanding came back into (Yasha’s light) the world. Put your spiritual eyes on and your spiritual ears to use and listen with an open mind. In Revelation it speaks of a time that the Devil would be locked up and the church [spiritually speaking] would be taken away for a thousand years. Check your history, no man had access to the holy scriptures except the monks in the early (universal) church, and even if they (man) could have gotten a hold of a copy they would not have been able to read them anyway, illiteracy was common among all commoners, and only the wealthy and the monks and priests where educated Furthermore all the text had been locked away and the people were taught from Latin. Christian teaching had stopped. The early church had become so corrupted , and false teachings had so heavily taken over, that the holy wars broke out all over the land. You might say that was the influence of the devil that caused all of that, well, if you will look in your Bible at Rev.20:1-3. Satin is cast into the bottomless pit, for a thousand years, not the false prophet, nor the man of sin (it is hard to remember we are dealing with “SPIRIT”). Remember that in the final end the false prophet and the man of sin are also put in the pit with the devil. This scripture makes no mention of any one other that the devil himself.
The preachers also a long with the rapture story, tell of going to a wedding of the church and the Messiah in Heaven. Well I hope you weren’t planning on going, sorry, but it too has already happened. If you will turn in your Bible to Luke 12:35-38. When HE [the Messiah] returns, He will be returning from His wedding.
One other point of interest, Yasha is not going to return until His enemy is made His foot stool. Psalms 110:1, The Lord [Yah] says to my Lord [the Messiah], Sit you at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy foot stool.



Matt. 24:21-30, For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of this world.... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, the moon will be dark, and the stars shall fall, Then shall appear the sign, they shall see the Son of Man coming with power and great glory. Luke 21:31-34, when you see these things come to pass, know that the Kingdom of God is now at hand. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Many believers in this day will die of starvation, pestilence, or the sword, because they believed Yahweh would take them out of the earth before all these terrible events occurred. This is sad, but true. Many more will die of fear, simply because Yahweh's judgments will be so fierce in the earth. Evidence of this fact is found in the writings of the major and minor prophets of the old testament. Read the accounts of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Amos, Obadiah, and Micah, to name a few. Yahweh's pattern remains the same: He removes the wicked but preserves the righteous in His time of tribulation (judgment). He did not remove Noah and his family from the earth in the time of the great Deluge. He preserved them in the flood. Yahweh did not remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the tribulation of the fire in the furnace. He preserved them in the fire. Yahweh did not remove Daniel from the lion's den. He preserved him in the den. Yahweh did not remove Yasha from the tribulation of the cross, He preserved him unto full resurrection glory. In all tribulation, therefore, Yahweh has proven to preserve those who are 'caught up' in Him: those whose spirits are fastened on Him in love, adoration, and obedience. This is the one and only escape that will be afforded His people in the days ahead. When the lights go out, will Yasha be your light? When there's no food on the table, will Yasha be your bread? If nuclear war breaks out, will Yasha be your shelter or will the rapture be to you a bitter end?
Yahweh spoke it well when He said to Daniel, Many shall be made purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand", Daniel 12:10. See, understand, and hear what saith the Spirit.
So you see people, the rapture story is just a false tale. 2Peter 1:19-21, We have also a more sure word of prophecy; Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy come not by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
You have to remember Christ talked not only to the multitudes, but also to the disciples in parables, and the book of Revelation was not to be sealed. If Christ had wanted everyone to know what He was saying, He would have spelled it out plainly. Now we are in, I believe, to be the last days spoken of by Yasha. He has given us His written word, to read and study, the Holy Spirit to help us in finding the truth, to see and understand. Now it is up to us to put together the pieces of the puzzle, remember, Isa. 28:10, For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: verse 9, Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. {Church doctrine}

References; Hebrew Bible, KingJames Bible
excerpts from:
The Rapture-Another Lie by Mary Jaqua
Rapture Theory of Margaret McDonald from Feb.-April, 1830 byLavern Tucker

You appear to be confusing the McDonald/ Darby heresy with the actual teaching of the resurrection found in the New Testament. In particular 1&2 Thessalonians. The Church as a whole has always believed that at the second coming Christ will resurrect the righteous dead and those alive will be transformed, receiving immortal bodies and meeting the lord in the air at his return. What was believed by Mc Donald, Darby and others was that instead of one straight second coming there would be one in two stages. Christ would Rapture believers before the tribulation and then come back with them after seven years. this version of the Rapture is a key part of the Dispensationalist system created by John Nelson Darby and promoted by Edward Irvin and Cyrus Schofield. It stems from Margaret McDonalds Vision of 1830. I remember seeing somewhere that it has been estimated that only 25% of the worlds Christian population believe this version of events and a large number of those live in the US. That is largely due to Scofields Bible and notes.

 

[iamsoandso]

That's so awesome. I wish I had a bunker to protect me from N Korea. I live in Vegas so I have to worry about fat boy Kim getting nukes.

If you check out Rev 14:8 you see that Babylon has fallen. Babylon was first century Jerusalem, the mother of all harlots. She was "prostituting" herself with the beast, Rome. She was worshiping Caesar as her king and not worshiping Christ. Rome was the beast that carried her. They had a very "inappropriate" relationship.

If you go to Rev 14:9-11 and replace "beast" with first century "Rome", you see that you had to worship Caesar and his image in order to receive the mark of the beast's name. Once it is understood that the wrath of God mentioned here was His wrath against Jerusalem, the city that killed His Son, then we can time this period to 64 - 70 AD. Those who "drink of the wine of the wrath of God" perished in Jerusalem and most of them were Jews and none of them were Christian Jews.

The priests of that era of around 60-66 AD would offer up sacrifices (worship) the gods of Rome and Caesar in the Temple of God. Most people don't know this. Finally the Governor of the Temple, Eleazar, put a stop to it infuriating the priests who fear retribution from Rome. Anyway, stopping the sacrifices to Rome led to the War of the Jews with Rome and the destruction of the temple and city and end of the Nation of Israel for 1878 years.

In Ephesus, inscriptions to Nero have been found where he was called, "Almighty God" and "Savior." Nero demanded Emperor worship and from 64 to his death of 68, he "made war against the saints," the first emperor to do so for a period of exactly 42 months. Nero was even called a beast by contemporary philosopher, Apollonius of Tyana. According to Tertullian, Nero was the first to assail the Christian sect with the imperial sword and at age 30, he committed suicide by sword. "he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword." I could go on but tired.

I cant see how you would say this if you had read any of the writings of Josephus or any of the other historical writings from that time period.
Why is "Jewish wars","Jewish revolt",,,ect. why is that it is well known that if someone is trying to repel the leadership of a government instead of honouring it then they are "against it" right?

The Jews in the siege were not worshipping Caesar(Nero,Vespasian,Titus ect.) they were "against them" and "revolting" against their authority all the way down to their death in ad70. Then after this the ones who did survive were carried away into captivity(against their will) and those who weren’t killed or carried away regrouped and revolted again and then did the same for the third time years later.

The same Jews refused to use Rome’s money because it had pagan images on them and minted their own https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish_Revolt_coinage and so it is impossible to say that they took the mark(money of Rome) if they refused to use it so Revelation 13:17 absolutely could not be fulfilled by those Jews if they did not use Rome’s money.

It used to be a dare in the old days they would say "I dare any of you to read Josephus,ect." as if it would be conclusive in their behalf and in the end what it actually did was prove beyond any doubt that the Jews in ad66-70 absolutely did not worship Caesar nor receive his mark. Past that the only reason why anyone would try to say they did would be for the sole purpose of defending a camp instead of letting things be what they really mean.

 

[heartofdavid]

10 virgins is about setting in for the long haul

Same as it ever was

Long haul doctrine (postrib rapture) is not watching and waiting for a horseless groom .

Postribs are waiting for the antichrist on a white horse.

Only pretribs are waiting for the groom.(no horses).

What a glaring difference.

 

[J7]

Long haul doctrine (postrib rapture) is not watching and waiting for a horseless groom .

Postribs are waiting for the antichrist on a white horse.

Only pretribs are waiting for the groom.(no horses).

What a glaring difference.

10 virgins is about not expecting Jesus to the point of abandoning your spiritual work - nothing to do with post-tribulation doctrine is it?

Who is the horseless groom? (i've heard of the headless horseman)

No, I am waiting for the groom and and I am post-trib I think

 

[KJV1611]

10 virgins is about not expecting Jesus to the point of abandoning your spiritual work - nothing to do with post-tribulation doctrine is it?

Who is the horseless groom? (i've heard of the headless horseman)

No, I am waiting for the groom and and I am post-trib I think

Why wouldn't the 10 virgins be the Jews looking for Jesus coming the first time? Why is this future?

 

[heartofdavid]

10 virgins is about not expecting Jesus to the point of abandoning your spiritual work - nothing to do with post-tribulation doctrine is it?

Who is the horseless groom? (i've heard of the headless horseman)

No, I am waiting for the groom and and I am post-trib I think

If you are post trib,Jesus CAN NOT come soon,and ,to you,when he comes,it is on a horse with millions of saints.

I have no doubt that is why,in the ten virgin parable,you omit the setting,Jesus,the oil,and those left behind.

See why that doctrine is so destructive?

 

[heartofdavid]

10 virgins is about not expecting Jesus to the point of abandoning your spiritual work - nothing to do with post-tribulation doctrine is it?

Who is the horseless groom? (i've heard of the headless horseman)

No, I am waiting for the groom and and I am post-trib I think

Also,why do you ascribe the label of "weak non productive Christian" to us. But to yourself,who is waiting for the AC,you see yourself as superior?

Because your doctrine is busted?

Go to a business with a corporate headquarters,and tell them,"the owners are coming day after tomorrow.
Under your wisdom,they get real sloppy,party,and loose all sight of being productive.

You guys love the obscure.

 

[KJV1611]

If you are post trib,Jesus CAN NOT come soon,and ,to you,when he comes,it is on a horse with millions of saints.

I have no doubt that is why,in the ten virgin parable,you omit the setting,Jesus,the oil,and those left behind.

See why that doctrine is so destructive?

The great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, the day of the Lord was in Jesus time why are we as believers today even discussing the great tribulation?

 

[J7]

Why wouldn't the 10 virgins be the Jews looking for Jesus coming the first time? Why is this future?

Because Jesus says:

13 [FONT=&quot]Keep awake therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.[/FONT]