The Rapture

[J7]

I think Zephaniah is referring to the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem.

He mentions star and Moloch worship, which God judged in the exile to Babylon.
[FONT=&quot]
Acts 7 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

I am not sure if those practices resurfaced when they returned.[/FONT]

 

[Jackson123]

You are correct and below is what "the day of the Lord" is:

"See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure old, more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger."

So, the above is the description of "the day of the Lord." Did you see any mention of the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him? No, you didn't! That is because they are two different events:

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is when the church takes place prior to the day of the Lord

The day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, takes place after the Lord comes and gathers the church.

First: The coming of the Lord and our being gathered to him

Second: The day of the Lord, the wrath of God which follows our being gathered

The coming of the Lord and our being gathered is not the same event as the day of the Lord, but is the wrath that takes place after we are gathered.

in that case you believe there is third coming

1. First coming happen 2000 years ago in Bethlehem
2. Second coming happen before 7 years tribulation
3. Third coming when Jesus come to rule 1000 years

is that you believe?

 

[Ahwatukee]

in that case you believe there is third coming

1. First coming happen 2000 years ago in Bethlehem
2. Second coming happen before 7 years tribulation
3. Third coming when Jesus come to rule 1000 years

is that you believe?

Regarding number 2, when the Lord comes to gather the church, he is not coming back to the earth, but only appearing in the sky to gather the church and then taking them back to the Father's house, as he promised in John 14:1-3

In opposition, at the second coming the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

So, when the Lord gathers the church he will not be physically coming back to the earth.

It is paramount in understanding that the Lord's appearing to gather the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. They are two separate events with two different purposes.

 

[Jackson123]

Yes, the beast is given authority by God to make war against the saints and conquer them during that last 3 1/2 years, just as the scripture says. Everyone on the earth during that time, no matter what the beast and the false prophet are doing, will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

so the saint face 2 problem.1 War with antichrist/persecute by antichrist, and 2 exposed the wrath of God

why don"t God protect them from wrath of God?

From persecution I understand, Stephen not protected.

 

[Jackson123]

Regarding number 2, when the Lord comes to gather the church, he is not coming back to the earth, but only appearing in the sky to gather the church and then taking them back to the Father's house, as he promised in John 14:1-3

In opposition, at the second coming the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

So, when the Lord gathers the church he will not be physically coming back to the earth.

It is paramount in understanding that the Lord's appearing to gather the church as being a separate event from the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. They are two separate events with two different purposes.

so you believe second coming happen when Jesus start 1000 years earth government. Am I correct?

 

[KJV1611]

What KJV1611 said regarding the stars being "1) lust of the flesh 2) lust of the eyes 3) prinde of life... the third part represents unsaved CARNAL people" is false!

The scripture itself tells us who the stars are representing, which are Satan's angels who originally rebelled with him and who will eventually be cast out of heaven during the middle of that seven year period:

"Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth."

"Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

The "stars" in the scripture above are symbolic for Satan's angels who will be cast out of heaven with him and restricted to the earth during that last 3 1/2 years.

How are "the third part" that was cast out heaven BEFORE the manchild was born the same as the angels that were cast out AFTER the manchild was caught up? Seriously, do you even read the bible as whole or do you only chery pick verses and build doctrines on those verses?

Revelation 12:9 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

so you believe second coming happen when Jesus start 1000 years earth government. Am I correct?

That is correct! His return to the earth to end the age (second coming) is revealed in Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.1:7 and 19:11-21

 

[PlainWord]

but thesalonians is Christian, thesalonians is not Israel.

They were being heavily persecuted by the Jews in Thessaloniki. Didn't you read my reply to you in post 4744? I fully explained it to you. If someone was beating you up every day for years then you found out the beatings would eventually stop because the person abusing you was going away and never coming back, wouldn't you want to hear about it?

 

[KJV1611]

I think Zephaniah is referring to the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem.

He mentions star and Moloch worship, which God judged in the exile to Babylon.

Acts 7 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

I am not sure if those practices resurfaced when they returned.

Zephaniah 1:7 KJV
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God : for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

What would be God's sacrifice in the Babylonian destruction?

 

[Ahwatukee]

so the saint face 2 problem.1 War with antichrist/persecute by antichrist, and 2 exposed the wrath of God

why don"t God protect them from wrath of God?

From persecution I understand, Stephen not protected.

The word of God continually warns of the time of God's wrath. He will not force people to come to him so that they can escape it. This is why Jesus says to "watch" and be having faith when he comes. Those people who become believers after the church has been gathered are there because they were not ready when the church was gathered, otherwise God would have gathered them with the church too.

They will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowls, as well as the persecution of the beast and the false prophet. These are those who will keep their testimony of Christ and the word of God. And who will not have worshiped the beast , his image nor received his mark. They will be willing to go through whatever they have to suffer, even unto dead, which many do.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." - Rev.20:4-6

Those above are those great tribulation saints who will have been killed during that last 3 1/2 years because they will be unwilling to renounce God and to save their own lives. They get the victory over the beast by not worshiping him, his image and by not receiving his mark. So, he kills them, but they have eternal life because the die keeping their faint in Christ.

 

[Jackson123]

Back to 2 thesalonians 2:3

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction

if that day in this verse mean God wrath, mean God wrath happen after 7 years tribulation

if rapture happen before a God wrath, mean rapture happen after tribulation

let make it easy

7 years tribulation happen in 2020 -2027
if God wrath not happen until 7 years tribulation, mean God wrath happen in 2028

if rapture happen before God wrath, mean 2027

 

[Jackson123]

Was Herod a "the fourth part" OR a "the third part"? Herod was carnal, he was not one of God's people.

Herod is Jews, and you said star is jews

 

[KJV1611]

Herod is Jews, and you said star is jews

The bible says the children of Israel are stars.

Genesis 37:9 KJV
And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[Jackson123]

They were being heavily persecuted by the Jews in Thessaloniki. Didn't you read my reply to you in post 4744? I fully explained it to you. If someone was beating you up every day for years then you found out the beatings would eventually stop because the person abusing you was going away and never coming back, wouldn't you want to hear about it?

Is the persecution by Jews make them believe second coming and rapture already happen?

 

[Jackson123]

The bible says the children of Israel are stars.

Genesis 37:9 KJV
And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Not always the star mean Israel, depend on the context, some time star mean Satan.

 

[PlainWord]

so you believe in AD 70 1/3 Jews not believe Jesus?

I believe Jews that not believe in Jesus that time more than 90%

According to Josephus, 1.1 million Jews were slain or lost their lives during the Great Tribulation of 66-70 AD and another 98,000 were taken prisoner. Many of those were killed on the way to Rome and/or killed in the games once they got there. Those not killed were sold as slaves. An additional 144,000 mostly Jewish Christians males of warrior age escaped Jerusalem presumably along with their families making the number closer to 500,000. Also, during the siege of Vespasian many successfully escaped and fled to Egypt and other places.

Roman historian Tacitus claimed that at its fall, Jerusalem had 600,000 residence but since the siege began at Passover, the city population would have swelled way beyond that. There were an estimated 200,000 to 700,000 Jews living in Galilee and another million each in Syria and in Egypt. Many of those in Galilee who were not killed in the Roman wars leading up to the siege of Jerusalem fled to Jerusalem for safety. Adolph Harnack reckons there were at least another 1.5 million Jews in other places east of the Euphrates and in places like Greece and Rome. Many of those would have returned for Passover also.

So, it is not possible to know how many Jew actually were residents of Jerusalem in 70 AD and how many visitors were there but if it were over 1.2 million as Josephus records, Jerusalem would have been among the biggest cities in the world rivaling Rome and Constantinople.

If you take the 144,000 as the total number of Christians and the 1.1 million killed and 98,000 survivors (which the Bible makes clear called upon the Lord and were saved) and disregard others who fled, you would have an un-believing Jewish rate of around 82%.

 

[Jackson123]

According to Josephus, 1.1 million Jews were slain or lost their lives during the Great Tribulation of 66-70 AD and another 98,000 were taken prisoner. Many of those were killed on the way to Rome and/or killed in the games once they got there. Those not killed were sold as slaves. An additional 144,000 mostly Jewish Christians males of warrior age escaped Jerusalem presumably along with their families making the number closer to 500,000. Also, during the siege of Vespasian many successfully escaped and fled to Egypt and other places.

Roman historian Tacitus claimed that at its fall, Jerusalem had 600,000 residence but since the siege began at Passover, the city population would have swelled way beyond that. There were an estimated 200,000 to 700,000 Jews living in Galilee and another million each in Syria and in Egypt. Many of those in Galilee who were not killed in the Roman wars leading up to the siege of Jerusalem fled to Jerusalem for safety. Adolph Harnack reckons there were at least another 1.5 million Jews in other places east of the Euphrates and in places like Greece and Rome. Many of those would have returned for Passover also.

So, it is not possible to know how many Jew actually were residents of Jerusalem in 70 AD and how many visitors were there but if it were over 1.2 million as Josephus records, Jerusalem would have been among the biggest cities in the world rivaling Rome and Constantinople.

If you take the 144,000 as the total number of Christians and the 1.1 million killed and 98,000 survivors (which the Bible makes clear called upon the Lord and were saved) and disregard others who fled, you would have an un-believing Jewish rate of around 82%.

That is why if 1/3 star fall, mean 1/3 Jews is unsaved or not believe in Jesus by AD 70, look like stastistically wrong 82% is about right

 

[PlainWord]

Is the persecution by Jews make them believe second coming and rapture already happen?

We don't know but I suspect they were led to believe this by all the false teachers of their day. There were something like 200 different sects which formed between Christ and 70 AD. Clearly the work of Satan doing whatever he could to pollute "the way."

If you read the NT literally, it's clear that all the teachings point to an earlier, rather than several millennia later, return of Christ. Everyone certainly had the expectation that Christ would again appear in their lifetimes. As I mentioned before, none of the earliest church writers from 70-180 AD spoke about the second coming or resurrection as if the events had passed.

 

[Jackson123]

The word of God continually warns of the time of God's wrath. He will not force people to come to him so that they can escape it. This is why Jesus says to "watch" and be having faith when he comes. Those people who become believers after the church has been gathered are there because they were not ready when the church was gathered, otherwise God would have gathered them with the church too.

They will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowls, as well as the persecution of the beast and the false prophet. These are those who will keep their testimony of Christ and the word of God. And who will not have worshiped the beast , his image nor received his mark. They will be willing to go through whatever they have to suffer, even unto dead, which many do.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." - Rev.20:4-6

Those above are those great tribulation saints who will have been killed during that last 3 1/2 years because they will be unwilling to renounce God and to save their own lives. They get the victory over the beast by not worshiping him, his image and by not receiving his mark. So, he kills them, but they have eternal life because the die keeping their faint in Christ.

Noah was exposed to flood, but protected.

 

[PlainWord]

That is why if 1/3 star fall, mean 1/3 Jews is unsaved or not believe in Jesus by AD 70, look like stastistically wrong 82% is about right

I've always taken the 1/3 of the stars that Satan cast down in Rev 12 as a temporary casting down to try and kill baby Jesus but that they returned to heaven after they failed and were the same demons Michael fought with after Christ ascended making their fall at this time permanent. I never equated the stars to unbelieving Jews.

However, many unbelieving Jews escaped early in the War of 66-70 AD or did not return for Passover of 66 AD. We know this because during the Bar-Kokhba revolt of 132-135 AD, 580,000 Jews were killed according to Cassius Dio. Granted 60 years had passed so most of these would not have been alive in 70 AD but it is reasonable to assume that they were born to parents of no faith otherwise they would not have thought Bar-Kokhba to be the Messiah.