Not By Works

[PHart]

I understand what you are saying and I agree in principle but it is a carnal ( fleshly ) way of living the Christian life.

How is congregating on the 7th day of the week because you love the Lord carnal but congregating on the 1st day of the week because you love the Lord not carnal?

I think it a little misguided to condemn law keepers for their law keeping while we ourselves have our own 'law' that we follow in our worship of God. The 'laws' of worship that we follow--Easter, Christmas, Sunday worship, etc.--are laws too. But for some reason we excuse ourselves from the condemnation of law keeping in regard to our 'law'--the 'law' that the Catholics invented for us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In this context 'going back to the law' means trying to be justified by the law. Paul made it clear that the issue was in regard to trying to be justified by the law, not simply keeping the law.

Galatians 5:4 NASB
...you who are seeking to be justified by law...

'Going back to the law' does not mean choosing to honor and worship God, whom you love, by observing a Sabbath, or a Festival. It would be terribly hypocritical of Paul to chastise the Galatians for simply wanting to observe the law since he himself observed the law. The point of contention with the Galatians is they were trying to be justified by observance of the law. That's the no-no.

If one claims you can lose your salvation because you have sinned (like he said, and I have seen him say numerous times) then one is putting one back under law.

in the same token, if your obeying the sabbath only as a means of performance (God said so so I must do it) then you miss the whole point, and you too are placing yourself under law. and missing out of the real rest God has been wanting to give us.

Thats why the law can not make us righteous, It was never intended to save us, or make us good moral people. People who have tried to use it that way have failed. Look at Israel..

yet here we are and much of the church wants to do the same thing, as if they will have better luck..

that is the wisdom of men for ya, and what does God say about the wisdom of men?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How is congregating on the 7th day of the week because you love the Lord carnal but congregating on the 1st day of the week because you love the Lord not carnal?

I think it a little misguided to condemn law keepers for their law keeping while we ourselves have our own 'law' that we follow in our worship of God. The 'laws' of worship that we follow--Easter, Christmas, Sunday worship, etc.--are laws too. But for some reason we excuse ourselves from the condemnation of law keeping in regard to our 'law'--the 'law' that the Catholics invented for us.

How is congregating on the 7th day of the week vs the first day of the week spiritual?

The sabbath was not given for congregating by the way, It was given for mankind to rest, He was to work for 6 days, and on the seventh rest,

I find it amazing that so many pushing the 7th day do not even properly follow the seventh. nor understand what it means.

 

[Ariel82]

Some folks need to learn the difference between "law" and "traditions"......neither makes one more holy or spiritual.

However when folks break the "law" you expect punishment. When folks break "tradition", you might ruffle a few feathers but you don't normally get condemned for it.

Why argue over the traditions of men?

The thread is that we are justified by FAITH AND NOT BY WORKS.

Galatians 3 is clear that some would try and keep the law and abandon grace and faith in what Jesus did for our salvation.

 

[Grace777x70]

How is congregating on the 7th day of the week because you love the Lord carnal but congregating on the 1st day of the week because you love the Lord not carnal?

I think it a little misguided to condemn law keepers for their law keeping while we ourselves have our own 'law' that we follow in our worship of God. The 'laws' of worship that we follow--Easter, Christmas, Sunday worship, etc.--are laws too. But for some reason we excuse ourselves from the condemnation of law keeping in regard to our 'law'--the 'law' that the Catholics invented for us.

Both "the keeping of Saturday or Sunday" are carnal ( fleshly ) ways and no one is condemning anyone for it. That might just be a product of your own thought life thinking that others are saying that they are condemning law-keepers.

I am however totally against the Judaizing spirit which says that if Christians don't follow the Sabbath or any other carnal observation in the Old Testament then they are sinning and dis-obeying God.

I'm simply saying the way of the Lord in the New Covenant which is Christ Himself living His life in and through us is how Christians are to live now.

Whether people meet on a Saturday or a Sunday or any day is totally irrelevant in the New Covenant.

Any "laws" that we put on ourselves or others other then the law of Christ, the law of love, the law of faith, the law of liberty in Christ and the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus - are all carnal laws.

People are free in the Lord to do as they please in some of these areas but it's when they start to impose these "laws" on others - that's when the line has been crossed.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[graceNpeace]

How is congregating on the 7th day of the week because you love the Lord carnal but congregating on the 1st day of the week because you love the Lord not carnal?

I think it a little misguided to condemn law keepers for their law keeping while we ourselves have our own 'law' that we follow in our worship of God. The 'laws' of worship that we follow--Easter, Christmas, Sunday worship, etc.--are laws too. But for some reason we excuse ourselves from the condemnation of law keeping in regard to our 'law'--the 'law' that the Catholics invented for us.

Actually you are more than a little misguided if you believe what you have written!
In what way are the laws of worship (your construct entirely) laws?
My eternity is in no way affected by whether I specifically go to church on any day, or not, including those on your list.

The posse of legalistic Sabbatarians (mostly from the SDA church) believe anyone not observing the Sabbath is hell-bound as they will bear the mark of the beast (this is complete rubbish but it is an offical doctrine of the SDA church).
These people are aggressively pushing their heresies on this forum no doubt in an attempt to proselytise Christians who may not be well grounded and hence vulnerable to their scare stories.

I suggest you properly research the SDA church and its doctrines (not to mention other Sabbatarian groups - most of them also believe non observers of the Sabbath are hell-bound too)!

 

[Grace777x70]

Actually you are more than a little misguided if you believe what you have written!
In what way are the laws of worship (your construct entirely) laws?
My eternity is in no way affected by whether I specifically go to church on any day, or not, including those on your list.

The posse of legalistic Sabbatarians (mostly from the SDA church) believe anyone not observing the Sabbath is hell-bound as they will bear the mark of the beast (this is complete rubbish but it is an offical doctrine of the SDA church).
These people are aggressively pushing their heresies on this forum no doubt in an attempt to proselytise Christians who may not be well grounded and hence vulnerable to their scare stories.

I suggest you properly research the SDA church and its doctrines (not to mention other Sabbatarian groups - most of them also believe non observers of the Sabbath are hell-bound too)!

Here is an example of what you are saying. This is in the signature of one of them.

The BeastsMark is coming! "I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice,Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."(Rev 14:6-7)


Here is the website that speaks of Christians taking the mark of the beast because of going to meet on sundays.

https://www.beastsmark.com/

Here is a quote from it.

Those who receive the mark in their foreheads believe that the Sunday law is necessary to regain God’s favor, while those marked in the hand obey only out of fear of death .

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE FOREHEAD = TO BELIEVE IN SUNDAY WORSHIP AND TO OBEY IT

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE HAND = TO OBEY (You don't need to believe in Sunday Worship)

These characteristics are seen in His 7th day Sabbath commandment, which identifies Him as our Creator (Ex 20: 10). God's true followers are identified as those who resist the mark of the beast and keep God's 7th Day Sabbath Holy. They are identified as “keeping the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12)

Unquote:

Where have we ever seen Rev. 14:12 quoted constantly out of context with the finished work of Christ?

 

[dcontroversal]

The handwriting of ordinances which was against us and contrary to us has been removed and NAILED to the cross....is that not symbolic of DYING with Christ and being put to death.........

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Oh yuck...

edit: that was in response to what bruce posted

 

[dcontroversal]

I notice the lawyers and workers for are still failing to interpret the words of Jesus in light of the fact that he was born, lived and died under the LAW which ratified the NEW COVENANT.....

 

[dcontroversal]

I see the lawyers and workers for are still missing the mark on "blasphemy of the Spirit" which boils down to UNBELIEF in the WORK of Christ by the power of the SPIRIT.....ONE who will NOT believe cannot be FORGIVEN.....and I see they still take Hebrews out of context to teach a losable salvation that cannot be regained....BOTH false I might add........

 

[dcontroversal]

How is congregating on the 7th day of the week vs the first day of the week spiritual?

The sabbath was not given for congregating by the way, It was given for mankind to rest, He was to work for 6 days, and on the seventh rest,

I find it amazing that so many pushing the 7th day do not even properly follow the seventh. nor understand what it means.

Amen....not to mention the church in Acts met EVERY DAY.......and Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath ALLOWED his disciples to break it and pick wheat (corn)........imagine that.....

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi Grace,

It is important to listen to the "now" word of God. We can take an Old Covenant scripture and try to "apply it" in the New Covenant and as Jesus said we end up ruining both. He gave us the example of new wine in old wine skins.

Sorry this is not true. I'm not sure who's telling you this, but it's actually a lie. There are many verses that are repeated in the New from the Old.

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”Paul spoke to Timothy extolling the virtues of the Old Testament telling him to continue on in what he learned from the Old Testament.

2 Timothy 3:14-16
You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
~~~

All scripture is inspired. Guess which scripture Paul was speaking of? The Old Testament. They didn't have the New Testament yet.

Paul goes on to say that the Old Testament is profitable. For what?
~ Teaching
~ Reproof
~ Correction
~ Training in Rightousness

Christian common sense should tell us how precious God's word is.......all of it!

 

[Ariel82]

The old testament spoke of the New Covenant.....the old covenant made on mount Sinai is not the New covenant promised to Abraham and Moses (Moses spoke of another Prophet that would establish a better covenant) and even in Genesis 3 with the promised Seed.

Scriptures speak of Jesus but some still have a veil when they read the old testament and do not see the New Covenant Jesus spoke of.

 

[Desertsrose]

Actually you are more than a little misguided if you believe what you have written!
In what way are the laws of worship (your construct entirely) laws?
My eternity is in no way affected by whether I specifically go to church on any day, or not, including those on your list.

The posse of legalistic Sabbatarians (mostly from the SDA church) believe anyone not observing the Sabbath is hell-bound as they will bear the mark of the beast (this is complete rubbish but it is an offical doctrine of the SDA church).
These people are aggressively pushing their heresies on this forum no doubt in an attempt to proselytise Christians who may not be well grounded and hence vulnerable to their scare stories.

I suggest you properly research the SDA church and its doctrines (not to mention other Sabbatarian groups - most of them also believe non observers of the Sabbath are hell-bound too)!

Hi GnP,

I'm not proposing we observe Sabbath, but in all fairness to what Phart wrote, he is correct about what he says in part of his post.

I have experienced the wrath of some if you don't worship on Sunday or disagree with Sunday only worship. Scripture tells us we are free to consider each day the same. If fact the early church met every day of the week to worship God.

Sunday is a sacred day to some and can't allow for worship on another day in place of Sunday. And if you don't worship on Sunday.....well you're in danger of not being a Christian.

I have also experienced the wrath of some in mentioning that the holidays are manmade via the Catholic church. I was even called a heathen for saying this. The point in saying this is that some will condemn those who celebrate the OT holidays and the very ones who do condemn, celebrate holidays that were manmade through the RC church.

People can make laws out of all kinds of things and tell you your not going to be saved unless you do it my way. Even the varying denominations might call one another unsaved unless you do it our way.

I don't agree with him that we can use that to suggest we all begin to worship on Saturday if doing so is because we have to and will affect our salvation, but we can choose any day of the week to worship the Lord our God corporately.

 

[UnderGrace]

Spent a bit of time perusing that web site out of curiosity.
I guess we are supposed to be shaking in our boots....good thing we know better.

Here is an example of what you are saying. This is in the signature of one of them.

The BeastsMark is coming! "I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice,Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."(Rev 14:6-7)


Here is the website that speaks of Christians taking the mark of the beast because of going to meet on sundays.

https://www.beastsmark.com/

Here is a quote from it.

Those who receive the mark in their foreheads believe that the Sunday law is necessary to regain God’s favor, while those marked in the hand obey only out of fear of death .

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE FOREHEAD = TO BELIEVE IN SUNDAY WORSHIP AND TO OBEY IT

RECEIVING THE MARK IN THE HAND = TO OBEY (You don't need to believe in Sunday Worship)

These characteristics are seen in His 7th day Sabbath commandment, which identifies Him as our Creator (Ex 20: 10). God's true followers are identified as those who resist the mark of the beast and keep God's 7th Day Sabbath Holy. They are identified as “keeping the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12)

Unquote:

Where have we ever seen Rev. 14:12 quoted constantly out of context with the finished work of Christ?

 

[Meggido]

Hi Cee,


My question would be:


Romans 1 talks about all mankind so Jew and Gentle are covered......all men are without excuse


Verse 28-32 says this:


And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


Here it says that they all know the ordinance of God, they know that because of going against the law and their works of unrighteousness, they know they are worthy of death.......they even try to bring others to their level of depravity, clapping their hands with hearty approval.

DR-
Romans 1 is written about the gentiles and not the Jews.....Romans 2 is written about the Jews....Romans 3 is about all men

 

[Meggido]

The law is written in their hearts and they go against it anyway in rebellion (the pride of life is so ubiquitous!) so is it not that same law that ultimately condemns them? It is true Jesus paid the price for the sins of the world, but if His gift is rejected, those who do so are left outside of grace (no condemnation) and are condemned by what standard? I would think it to be the law, is what I was getting at. They are judged by their deeds according to the measurement of the law... yes? No?

Thank you, Cee, always nice to see you also!

They are condemned by the law of sin and death[Romans 8.2]...not the Mosaic law...

 

[Magenta]

They are condemned by the law of sin and death[Romans 8.2]...not the Mosaic law...

What laws are broken? The ten commandments. Is that what you call Mosaic? I am not sure what you mean when you say that.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What law is sin and death predicated upon? They hang on something. What?

 

[Meggido]

The huge mistake the church makes is to automatically and categorically make any and all law keeping equivalent to trying to be made righteous (justified) by the law.

If it was true that any and all attempts to keep the law of Moses automatically condemned you as trying to justify yourself by your works then Paul himself was most certainly condemned, for he is recorded in the book of Acts as observing the law of Moses. He proves that you are not automatically condemning yourself for choosing to observe various things in the law. The reason you are keeping the law determines whether or not your law keeping condemns you. The church does not know this.

Some Christians choose to observe the literal Sabbath or a Festival for the same reason the rest of us don't murder, or steal. The church seems to only be capable of understanding works as 'trying to justify yourself' and seem oblivious to the fact that Christians can in fact keep a law of God because they love him and want to please him. And that's certainly not a reason for keeping the law that condemns a person.

Few in the church know that it is actually the early Catholic church that outlawed the law and made it a crime to keep the law for any reason whatsoever. God is not the one who indoctrinated us against law keeping by saying any and all law keeping is the attempt to justify oneself. The Catholic church is responsible for that indoctrination. It's interesting to see Christians refer to Sunday as the Sabbath when the truth is the Catholics are the ones who changed the law and made Sunday the new Sabbath.

Don't get me wrong. I personally am convinced that Christians do not HAVE to keep the ceremonial law of Moses as we have to keep the law of murder and theft, for example. But to insist that no one can keep the ceremonial laws because that automatically means you're trying to justify yourself is just plain misguided at best, down right judgmental at worse. Who are we to judge the heart and intent and motivations of someone who keeps the law because he loves God, and not in order to be justified?

If people keep the ceremonial laws of Moses to stay saved or think by keeping them they are saved they are wrong.

If they teach and preach to others they must keep them to stay saved or can only be saved by keeping the ceremonial laws they are wrong and it is a false teaching..and is exactly what Paul was preaching against....

Paul was observing the law of Moses in Acts 21 as a favor and request of the Jewish elders....he also did it with 4 men who were taking a vow and the fact they shaved their heads, means they were probably in the last steps of a Nazarite vow.....would you please include proper context in your remarks?


The only new covenant people I ever personally witnessed keeping the ceremonial laws of Moses are usually Messianic Jews who do so for the customs and heritage aspect only and are know without doubt that Messiah died on the cross for them.

Most of the others do it as a means of salvation or in attempt to keep salvation and many on this chat board, push this false teaching...