The Rapture
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The problems with making Titus the Man Of Sin are manifold.
Poor guy. You go to Jerusalem and teach the God Killers a lesson, and
you end up being called the Man Of Sin.
8 [FONT="]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[/FONT][FONT="]Even if you passionately believe that Jesus has already returned, then you still need to deal with a slight hitch. Titus did not die in AD 70, or AD 73.
Far from it, he went back to Rome and was declared Emperor.[/FONT]
Poor guy. You go to Jerusalem and teach the God Killers a lesson, and
you end up being called the Man Of Sin.
8 [FONT="]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[/FONT][FONT="]Even if you passionately believe that Jesus has already returned, then you still need to deal with a slight hitch. Titus did not die in AD 70, or AD 73.
Far from it, he went back to Rome and was declared Emperor.[/FONT]
Try to learn how they spoke in their time rather than how we speak 2,000 years later. They use figurative language just as we do but figurative language changes over time. The colorful way we speak and understand things are different today than how they spoke and understood things.
Example. Look at Dan 8, which every scholar agrees dealt with the speed of Alexander's conquest of Persia in 331 BC. Keep in mind this language was only 400 years prior to John's writings so the imagery would be much closer than it is now.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Ask yourself, did Alexander literally fly above the ground without touching it or did he travel so fast that Daniel is using this symbolically to describe the speed in which Alexander attacked?
Did Alexander conquer China or South Africa or the Americas? Then how did he cross the surface of the whole earth? Was Daniel a big fat liar or was he talking about the known earth or relevant part of the earth to them? If it was the latter, than we should expect John to speak the same way as not much changed from 331 BC to 70 AD.
Example. Look at Dan 8, which every scholar agrees dealt with the speed of Alexander's conquest of Persia in 331 BC. Keep in mind this language was only 400 years prior to John's writings so the imagery would be much closer than it is now.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
Ask yourself, did Alexander literally fly above the ground without touching it or did he travel so fast that Daniel is using this symbolically to describe the speed in which Alexander attacked?
Did Alexander conquer China or South Africa or the Americas? Then how did he cross the surface of the whole earth? Was Daniel a big fat liar or was he talking about the known earth or relevant part of the earth to them? If it was the latter, than we should expect John to speak the same way as not much changed from 331 BC to 70 AD.
But using a foreign army to punish His people is how God always dealt with Israel. Look how Josephus discusses the history of the various conquests of Israel. This is the last paragraph of Book 6 of the War of the Jews. Each time it was with a foreign army led by a Gentile leader. Read this and tell me why you think Titus doesn't match the divine judgment that God used in the past. I'll be back to deal with the other part of your question concerning the "consuming" of the man of sin.
AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy-seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem.
AND thus was Jerusalem taken, in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, on the eighth day of the month Gorpeius [Elul]. It had been taken five times before, though this was the second time of its desolation; for Shishak, the king of Egypt, and after him Antiochus, and after him Pompey, and after them Sosius and Herod, took the city, but still preserved it; but before all these, the king of Babylon conquered it, and made it desolate, one thousand four hundred and sixty-eight years and six months after it was built. But he who first built it. Was a potent man among the Canaanites, and is in our own tongue called [Melchisedek], the Righteous King, for such he really was; on which account he was [there] the first priest of God, and first built a temple [there], and called the city Jerusalem, which was formerly called Salem. However, David, the king of the Jews, ejected the Canaanites, and set-tied his own people therein. It was demolished entirely by the Babylonians, four hundred and seventy-seven years and six months after him. And from king David, who was the first of the Jews who reigned therein, to this destruction under Titus, were one thousand one hundred and seventy-nine years; but from its first building, till this last destruction, were two thousand one hundred and seventy-seven years; yet hath not its great antiquity, nor its vast riches, nor the diffusion of its nation over all the habitable earth, nor the greatness of the veneration paid to it on a religious account, been sufficient to preserve it from being destroyed. And thus ended the siege of Jerusalem.
rev 13
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[h=1]Revelation 13New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Beast out of the Sea[/h]13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemiesand to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage waragainst God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[b]
9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[d]
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
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[h=1]Revelation 13New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Beast out of the Sea[/h]13 The dragon[a] stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemiesand to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage waragainst God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[b]
9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[d]
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
That would be correct Jackson123. In no other time in history has the world been in a technological position to be able to control buying and selling as in these last days. The system that the mark will run on has been set up for some time now and people all over the world use it every day when they make their purchases via card swiping or cell phone bank apps., etc.
We already have people having chip implants under the skin of the hand for the purpose of making purchases. During the time of the antichrist, that mark will replace the card swiping, cell phone bank apps. and any other other devices used for electronic crediting and debiting.
Since we can see the stage being set for these events that are to take place after the church has been gathered, then we are getting very close to the church being gathered.
We already have people having chip implants under the skin of the hand for the purpose of making purchases. During the time of the antichrist, that mark will replace the card swiping, cell phone bank apps. and any other other devices used for electronic crediting and debiting.
Since we can see the stage being set for these events that are to take place after the church has been gathered, then we are getting very close to the church being gathered.
I hate to tell you this but when Jesus Christ returns there will not be a need to study some dusty history books to see when and if it happened, it will be something that everyone will know. Everything will change.
This is precisely what we are warned about "Look there He is" but no, everyone will see Him!
This is precisely what we are warned about "Look there He is" but no, everyone will see Him!
praise the Lord brother, we are close. It is exhilarating to hear soon we are MOVINg to palace
a testimony from ex muslim Imam, when they put in the prison for 6 years, in the prison police beat him almost every day
one day he can not take anymore. He almost give up and Deny Jesus.
but suddenly he colapse a second before he plan to Deny. During that time he feel like Jesus take him to heaven.
he is so Happy and ask Jesus not to send him back to earth
People WHO experience heaven, not afraid to die anymore. He want die sooner because heaven is 10000 time better than earth
a testimony from ex muslim Imam, when they put in the prison for 6 years, in the prison police beat him almost every day
one day he can not take anymore. He almost give up and Deny Jesus.
but suddenly he colapse a second before he plan to Deny. During that time he feel like Jesus take him to heaven.
he is so Happy and ask Jesus not to send him back to earth
People WHO experience heaven, not afraid to die anymore. He want die sooner because heaven is 10000 time better than earth
Okay, let's deal with the issue of "consuming" the Man of Sin. Keep in mind, the Man of Sin is of Satan, doing Satan's work. This is why he is AKA, the Son of Perdition which means the Son of the one already condemned to hell.
I'm curious, which translation do you use? I like it. Most don't have the word "spirit" of his mouth included. That's good and it's a big part of solving this puzzle. Any time you see, "spirit," switch from the physical to the spiritual. The Lord did not literally burn up Titus with His mouth in 70 AD. As you point out, Titus lived until September of 81 AD.
First, let's go to the actual Greek and look at the whole passage. This from the Interlinear which is the ultimate authority for best translations that I know.
"And then be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of the mouth of Him, and bring to nothing by the brightness of the coming of Him; of whom the coming according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of a lie, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost..."
Those being lost were the 1.1 million deceived Jews inside the city. The deception was that Christ was not their Messiah King and instead Caesar was their King. Rather than sparing them (which Titus offered to do if they would have surrendered), he finished most of them off sparing just 98,000. Okay, lets focus on these two phrases because they are causing the most confusion, and rightly so.
will consume by the spirit of the mouth of Him
bring to nothing by the brightness of the coming of Him
Suddenly these phrases are looking a lot less literal and a lot more spiritual in nature. Now think back to the statue of Dan 2. The last metal was iron, representing Rome, correct?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
I recently solved the next section which deals with the mixing of iron and clay but let's save that topic. So, what happens next?
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
We are now clearly in the spiritual realm. This statue representing human government under Satan from Babylon to Rome along with their sun worship shall be destroyed by the Kingdom of God.
And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Christianity filled the whole earth bringing to nothing the works of Titus and Vespasian because they destroyed only the wicked Jews whose branches were cut off and dead. The Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles were 100% spared and untouched by the Romans in 70 AD as they fled to Pella and were gathered in an assembly by Christ and from there spread out and filled the world. Thus the workings of Satan in destroying the Jews was completely useless, it came to nothing because God wanted them destroyed so that His new people could rise, His unified Church made up of only those who accepted and loved His Son.
I'm curious, which translation do you use? I like it. Most don't have the word "spirit" of his mouth included. That's good and it's a big part of solving this puzzle. Any time you see, "spirit," switch from the physical to the spiritual. The Lord did not literally burn up Titus with His mouth in 70 AD. As you point out, Titus lived until September of 81 AD.
First, let's go to the actual Greek and look at the whole passage. This from the Interlinear which is the ultimate authority for best translations that I know.
"And then be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord will consume by the spirit of the mouth of Him, and bring to nothing by the brightness of the coming of Him; of whom the coming according to the working of Satan in all power and signs and wonders of a lie, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost..."
Those being lost were the 1.1 million deceived Jews inside the city. The deception was that Christ was not their Messiah King and instead Caesar was their King. Rather than sparing them (which Titus offered to do if they would have surrendered), he finished most of them off sparing just 98,000. Okay, lets focus on these two phrases because they are causing the most confusion, and rightly so.
will consume by the spirit of the mouth of Him
bring to nothing by the brightness of the coming of Him
Suddenly these phrases are looking a lot less literal and a lot more spiritual in nature. Now think back to the statue of Dan 2. The last metal was iron, representing Rome, correct?
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others.
I recently solved the next section which deals with the mixing of iron and clay but let's save that topic. So, what happens next?
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
We are now clearly in the spiritual realm. This statue representing human government under Satan from Babylon to Rome along with their sun worship shall be destroyed by the Kingdom of God.
And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
Christianity filled the whole earth bringing to nothing the works of Titus and Vespasian because they destroyed only the wicked Jews whose branches were cut off and dead. The Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles were 100% spared and untouched by the Romans in 70 AD as they fled to Pella and were gathered in an assembly by Christ and from there spread out and filled the world. Thus the workings of Satan in destroying the Jews was completely useless, it came to nothing because God wanted them destroyed so that His new people could rise, His unified Church made up of only those who accepted and loved His Son.
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By your reckoning then Titus must be the little horn
[FONT="]19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
But Titus never killed the Saints, he killed the anti-Saints[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
But Titus never killed the Saints, he killed the anti-Saints[/FONT]
If you really believe that Jesus returned in AD 70, then you would believe that the destruction was God's judgement. Here am I trying to give you a slightly less leaky culinder. lol
[FONT="]
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/FONT]
[FONT="]
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/FONT]
I do not know what to say. I did not make that up, Jesus said that everyone will know and see Him. Things will change when He comes back. You are literally saying that the Lord came back and everyone missed it. This is against all historical creeds, unheard of strange doctrine.
I am interested in what you said about me having no idea what happened in the past so I cannot know what is left to happen in the future. The reason this comment caught my eye is because in your mind there is nothing left to happen in the future, so how does that make sense?
I am not afraid to read history books, but I find them very boring, you could say I am lazy but I prefer to spend my time doing something other than reading boring history books.
I have seen you quote the history books and I am not convinced the Lord Jesus came back and EVERYONE missed it. I hope you see this, less people know of Jesus' supposed return in 70 AD than they do about world war 2. Let that sink in. If that does not convince you nothing will.
I am afraid you are fighting against the entire Church here, post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, amill, postmill, nobody believes Jesus already returned. That should be worrying.
Join us in...:
Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
I am interested in what you said about me having no idea what happened in the past so I cannot know what is left to happen in the future. The reason this comment caught my eye is because in your mind there is nothing left to happen in the future, so how does that make sense?
I am not afraid to read history books, but I find them very boring, you could say I am lazy but I prefer to spend my time doing something other than reading boring history books.
I have seen you quote the history books and I am not convinced the Lord Jesus came back and EVERYONE missed it. I hope you see this, less people know of Jesus' supposed return in 70 AD than they do about world war 2. Let that sink in. If that does not convince you nothing will.
I am afraid you are fighting against the entire Church here, post-trib, pre-trib, mid-trib, amill, postmill, nobody believes Jesus already returned. That should be worrying.
Join us in...:
Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
Read Rev 12 again in the light I just gave you:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
EARTH = ISRAEL
THE SEA - in this instance was the surrounding nations who attacked.
Satan wipes out wicked Israel. While the attack was led by the Romans under the command of Vespasian and carried out by Titus, his son, most of the solders, up to 20:1 were not Italians but were instead made up mostly of the nations around Israel, like the Syrians and the Arabs. They all paid a heavy price as the Jews inflicted much damage on them as well.
Then what does Rev 12 say?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
The Woman, true Israel who received and accepted their Messiah were kept from Satan and Titus as they went to Pella where they stayed safe for 3.5 years.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
The "flood" was the solders (the sea) under Roman control. The "earth" (wicked Jews) swallowed up the Romans in that they occupied all their attention while the Christian Jews got away.
These Jewish Christians were spared so Satan went to make war with the offspring, the gentile Christians. Remember, the Jewish Christians came first.
You see, Satan has been trying to destroy Israel ever since he learned the eternal life giving Messiah was going to come from Israel. He failed to killed the Messiah now He has been waging war on Christians ever since.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
EARTH = ISRAEL
THE SEA - in this instance was the surrounding nations who attacked.
Satan wipes out wicked Israel. While the attack was led by the Romans under the command of Vespasian and carried out by Titus, his son, most of the solders, up to 20:1 were not Italians but were instead made up mostly of the nations around Israel, like the Syrians and the Arabs. They all paid a heavy price as the Jews inflicted much damage on them as well.
Then what does Rev 12 say?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
The Woman, true Israel who received and accepted their Messiah were kept from Satan and Titus as they went to Pella where they stayed safe for 3.5 years.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
The "flood" was the solders (the sea) under Roman control. The "earth" (wicked Jews) swallowed up the Romans in that they occupied all their attention while the Christian Jews got away.
These Jewish Christians were spared so Satan went to make war with the offspring, the gentile Christians. Remember, the Jewish Christians came first.
You see, Satan has been trying to destroy Israel ever since he learned the eternal life giving Messiah was going to come from Israel. He failed to killed the Messiah now He has been waging war on Christians ever since.
I see a very bright future, eternal life with Jesus and God, our Father. What can be brighter than that? You are thinking carnally worried (perhaps that's not the correct word), obsessed with what is going to come to this sinful planet. Who cares? We are not of this world. Our citizenship is in heaven. This is where our focus should be, getting as many of our lost brethren to join us and lead them to salvation and righteousness.
As for what Paul wrote to Titus, were they intended for Titus or not? Did Paul give Titus an expectation of Christ's appearance or was he speaking more to a 21st century young man from Finland
? If you say all throughout history from them until now and into the future, then you just spiritualized the heck out of that passage giving it no purpose for Titus.
Keep in mind, it was only an appearance not a return as Him walking again as a man on earth. Parousia means PRESENCE. I keep telling you this. Christ presence returned "in the clouds of heaven" to wipe out wicked Israel and to comfort the saints. Little is told or known about our future.
As for what Paul wrote to Titus, were they intended for Titus or not? Did Paul give Titus an expectation of Christ's appearance or was he speaking more to a 21st century young man from Finland
? If you say all throughout history from them until now and into the future, then you just spiritualized the heck out of that passage giving it no purpose for Titus.Keep in mind, it was only an appearance not a return as Him walking again as a man on earth. Parousia means PRESENCE. I keep telling you this. Christ presence returned "in the clouds of heaven" to wipe out wicked Israel and to comfort the saints. Little is told or known about our future.