The Rapture

[PlainWord]

I think the debate boils down to the fact that Christians are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

The pre-wrath camp says the seals are not God's wrath and that it does not start until the vials (or trumpets).
The pre-trib camp says they are God's wrath (because the Lamb opens the seals) and therefore the gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the survivors of God's wrath and is a separate event from the rapture.

First we need to figure out who the Lamb's wrath is/was aimed at. Was Christ angry at the generation of His day, the money changers, the religious leaders who falsely accused Him and had Him put to death; or, is He more upset with a generation thousands of years into the future that never knew Him?

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves

Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?

Then Jesus answered and said, “O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you?

Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

IDK, I see a lot of righteous anger aimed at those of His generation and threats made against them. If my life depended on it, I'd bet Christ's wrath was aimed at those in the first century, which consequently, was when they were all wiped out, except the remnant, none of which were religious leaders. You need a future wrath and it's been 2,000 years with all kinds of horrible people deserving of it, yet it has not happened.

 

[Bogadile]

PlainWord if you pay attention to the world now you know this generation is also very evil.

 

[Burninglight]

No one is arguing against this.

When Jesus comes back the saints will be gathered together the dead in Christ will rise first. there is no indication there will be a rapture before this.

 

[Burninglight]

Nehemiah is.

Please explain

 

[Jackson123]

I read the article you cited and as I said, there are compelling arguments on both sides of the issue. On the 96 AD side, the strongest arguments come from writings of 2-3rd century writers, none of whom knew John. The rest of the arguments are weak.

On the pre-70 AD side, these arguments are pretty compelling:

1. The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here.

2. The second century Syrian version of the book has the title of "John the Evangelist in the Isle of Patmos, where he was thrown by Nero Caesar." Nero, of course, was dead by 68 AD.

3. According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD as most had returned to Jerusalem for Passover of 70 AD and were trapped in the city where 93% of them were killed. After this, the Jews were taken to Rome, enslaved with many killed in the games. Some survived and were scattered.

4. The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD is deafening! A future temple some 2 thousand years into the future argues against the "quickness" or "soon" language contained throughout.

5. There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the real apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time. For these false apostles to be around making these claims in 96 AD and to have been of age (20 or so) during Christ, they would have been as old, if not older than John, well into their 80s.

6. I already made my point about the heads or kings which fits my view perfectly.

7. What purpose would it serve for John to tell the first readers of his prophecy to "calculate" the number of the name of the beast if he was not to be born until 2000 years later? This would be completely ridiculous. This implies that the beast was living at the time of this writing making this command possible for the intended audience.

8. In Revelation there seems to be only 7 churches in Asia Minor (Turkey). Historically, there seems to be many more than that by 96 AD as Christianity began to grow very rapidly as the destruction of Jerusalem and the old way would have been a very compelling event for the correctness of Christianity.

9. The incredible parallels of Matthew 24 and Revelation, which Jesus said would happen in "this generation" and "when . . . Jerusalem (is) surrounded with armies". Most of that generation were dead in the time of 96 AD and Jerusalem was surrounded with armies in 70 AD.

10. Those 1-2 early Christians who give Revelation a 96 AD timing, had every reason to date it after 70 AD since they were still living under harsh Roman rule and did not see the need to identify Rome as the Beast who destroyed Jerusalem.

I could go on but the point is, the dating of Revelation is far from a settled issue.

I am not familier with this view, I have a question, do you believe tha antichrist already come or Will come in the future?

 

[J7]

Please explain

Well I can only go on what Nehemiah says.

This is the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints (and after the Tribulation). Not the Rapture which is FOR His saints (before the Tribulation). How can Christ come with His saints if He had not already come for His saints? The "elect" here are the believing Jewish remnant, not the Church. After the second coming of Christ, God will gather all the Jews to Israel, and they will all see Jesus and mourn and repent and be converted.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:26).

I don't really understand what he is saying, it is gobbledygook. Can you explain it?

 

[PlainWord]

I am not familier with this view, I have a question, do you believe tha antichrist already come or Will come in the future?

Here's some more information for you regarding Revelation:

• The “Syriac version” of the New Testament, which dates back to the second century A.D., states that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero making a date of 64-68 A.D.
• The “Muratorian Fragment,” dating back to 170-190 A.D., states that this work of John was written during the reign of Nero.
• The “Aramaic Peshitta” version has a remark that places its date prior to 70 A.D. The title page of Revelation states this work of John was written right after the reign of Nero.

By antichrist, do you mean, "The Man of Sin" spoken of by Paul in 2 Thes 2 or do you mean the antiChrist spoken of by John in 1 John 2?

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

John clearly identifies the period he is speaking of as "the last hour" a clear reference to the last hour of Jerusalem. We know this because Jesus told us in Mat 24 to be on guard for many deceptive false christs IN JERUSALEM during this period. Josephus writes extensively about them also from an historical perspective. We also see that this passage dealt with contemporary people as "they went out from us (John and his church) and were not of us."

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord if you pay attention to the world now you know this generation is also very evil.

No doubt. It is "as the days of Noah" right now too. I bet those living in Nazi Germany felt the same way, especially the Jews and other minorities.

You didn't answer my other post. Who was/is Christ more angry with?? Do you see any anger towards the religious leaders of His day? If so, what did He do about it, if anything?

 

[Jackson123]

Here's some more information for you regarding Revelation:

• The “Syriac version” of the New Testament, which dates back to the second century A.D., states that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero making a date of 64-68 A.D.
• The “Muratorian Fragment,” dating back to 170-190 A.D., states that this work of John was written during the reign of Nero.
• The “Aramaic Peshitta” version has a remark that places its date prior to 70 A.D. The title page of Revelation states this work of John was written right after the reign of Nero.

By antichrist, do you mean, "The Man of Sin" spoken of by Paul in 2 Thes 2 or do you mean the antiChrist spoken of by John in 1 John 2?

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

John clearly identifies the period he is speaking of as "the last hour" a clear reference to the last hour of Jerusalem. We know this because Jesus told us in Mat 24 to be on guard for many deceptive false christs IN JERUSALEM during this period. Josephus writes extensively about them also from an historical perspective. We also see that this passage dealt with contemporary people as "they went out from us (John and his church) and were not of us."

WHO is antichrist that mention by John

how about a man of sin in thesalonians 2

 

[VCO]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The rapture is post-trib. Read it and weep.

Is there an error in the translation?
.....(no).....

Do we have a problem understanding basic English language syntax and semantics?
........(no).........

So therefore the rapture clearly, unequivocally, and indubitably comes after the tribulation. Why is there an argument about this?

Wake up, there ARE TRIBULATIONS THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SEVEN YEARS of the ANTICHRIST'S REIGN.


TAKE THAT VERY DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND APPLY IT TO THE APPROPRIATE PLACE IN REVELATION, remembering that for the most part Revelation is Written in Chronological Order. AND SEE WHERE IN REVELATION, THOSE THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

Revelation 6:12-17 (RSV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"


GEE, you just proved the Early Rapture of the Church without even realizing it. ALL THAT STUFF you wanted as proof of a POST TRIB Rapture, actually HAPPENS by the opening of the 6th Seal, EVEN BEFORE THIS VERSE happens:


Revelation 6:17 (RSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"

 

[J7]

Wake up yourself.

1) Matthew talks about a Tribulation singular. You are now introducing multiple ones, which i am not talking about.
2) How do you know the Antichrist reign's 7 years?
3) Whatever tribulations there are they are not referenced by Jesus in the Temple prophecy
4) " ALL THAT STUFF" Sorry, what is that stuff you refer to here?

Wake up, there ARE TRIBULATIONS THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SEVEN YEARS of the ANTICHRIST'S REIGN.


TAKE THAT VERY DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND APPLY IT TO THE APPROPRIATE PLACE IN REVELATION, remembering that for the most part Revelation is Written in Chronological Order. AND SEE WHERE IN REVELATION, THOSE THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

Revelation 6:12-17 (RSV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"


GEE, you just proved the Early Rapture of the Church without even realizing it. ALL THAT STUFF you wanted as proof of a POST TRIB Rapture, actually HAPPENS by the opening of the 6th Seal, EVEN BEFORE THIS VERSE happens:


Revelation 6:17 (RSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Scripture says the coming of the Lord not the comings of the Lord. Where does the Scripture give support for what you say here?

Well "the coming of the Lord" is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ from Heaven to earth WITH His saints and angels (also referred to as "clouds" because that is their appearance when viewed from earth).

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7) You will notice in this verse that there is universal mourning and wailing at the second coming. But the Rapture is a time of rejoicing since it is the completion of salvation for the Church.

Also, at the Rapture the Lord does NOT come down to the earth, but meets the saints "in the air" and then returns to Heaven. So technically this is not a "coming of the Lord" but rather a "catching up of the saints". That is where the word Rapture is derived from. The Greek word is harpazo and is translated as "caught up together". But the Latin word is rapimur (from the Vulgate) and that is "rapture" in English.

 

[Jackson123]

Wake up, there ARE TRIBULATIONS THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SEVEN YEARS of the ANTICHRIST'S REIGN.


TAKE THAT VERY DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND APPLY IT TO THE APPROPRIATE PLACE IN REVELATION, remembering that for the most part Revelation is Written in Chronological Order. AND SEE WHERE IN REVELATION, THOSE THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

Revelation 6:12-17 (RSV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"


GEE, you just proved the Early Rapture of the Church without even realizing it. ALL THAT STUFF you wanted as proof of a POST TRIB Rapture, actually HAPPENS by the opening of the 6th Seal, EVEN BEFORE THIS VERSE happens:


Revelation 6:17 (RSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"

seem to me wrath of God happen after tribulation

It say and the kings of the earth strong men etc hide in the cave etc. It mean government not operate anymore.
all office close, all market close the antichrist himself have to hide in the cave

 

[Bogadile]

You didn't answer my other post. Who was/is Christ more angry with?? Do you see any anger towards the religious leaders of His day? If so, what did He do about it, if anything?

You've probably heard of it, it is a place under us burning right now called hell.
There is no doubt 70 AD Jerusalem's destruction was devastating to the Jews as well, I am not denying that.

 

[Bogadile]

seem to me wrath of God happen after tribulation

It say and the kings of the earth strong men etc hide in the cave etc. It mean government not operate anymore.
all office close, all market close the antichrist himself have to hide in the cave

The seven seals are also God's wrath, it is clear that the Lamb is opening the seals. (Our Lord Jesus Christ)

 

[JIMBO43]

Wake up, there ARE TRIBULATIONS THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SEVEN YEARS of the ANTICHRIST'S REIGN.


TAKE THAT VERY DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND APPLY IT TO THE APPROPRIATE PLACE IN REVELATION, remembering that for the most part Revelation is Written in Chronological Order. AND SEE WHERE IN REVELATION, THOSE THINGS ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

Revelation 6:12-17 (RSV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"


GEE, you just proved the Early Rapture of the Church without even realizing it. ALL THAT STUFF you wanted as proof of a POST TRIB Rapture, actually HAPPENS by the opening of the 6th Seal, EVEN BEFORE THIS VERSE happens:


Revelation 6:17 (RSV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"

whats the sigificance of moving the moutains ?

 

[Jackson123]

The seven seals are also God's wrath, it is clear that the Lamb is opening the seals. (Our Lord Jesus Christ)

Ya but when It happen, during the trib or after that is I do not know for sure

 

[VCO]

Safeway died a death in the UK about five years ago. It was taken over by a store called Morrisons. I dont think it sold Hoggies. I cant remember seeing any. Do Hinky Dinky stores still exist? Im suprised they had any Customers they would be too busy laughing at the name here to go inside

Yeah the Hoagies were huge and Safeway's Deli was still selling when I moved out of Nevaday a year and a half ago. It was how they got rid of their day old french bread and luncheon meat before it expired. When I was in the Air Force, 68-72, I told a buddy I used to work for Hinky Dinky and he was ROFL, then he told me he used to work for a grocery store called Piggly Wiggly and it was my turn to ROFL.

I KNOW, "You Yanks are Blooming Silly."

 

[PlainWord]

WHO is antichrist that mention by John

how about a man of sin in thesalonians 2

I believe they are both the same person. When you look at the interlinear Bible, and the actual Greek you see a couple of minor difference from the KJV or NKJV. These slight changes nails it for me.

2 Thes 2:4 ...he opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as him in the temple of God as God to sit, showing himself that he is a God."

Caesars have all be known as a god and worshiped as gods. No other God can be elevated above them. This is why Herod freaked out when told that the "King of the Jews" was born.

Multiple historical accounts place Titus in the temple and being worshiped on the wing of the temple where images of his father, Caesar Vespasian, were on the standards being carried by Titus' troops onto the temple mount. The Roman troops were in focus in the Olivet as the Abomination of Desolation and Titus was their leader. The troops bowed down and worshiped Titus as God and made sacrifices to him. The Talmud (as objectionable as it is) states that Titus entered the Holy of Holies with a prostitute and committed a sin. Titus took his sword and split the veil and blood came out. This caused Titus to declare that he had killed the God of the Jews. The troops called Titus imperator or Emperor of Rome bestowing upon him the same title held by his father at the same time his father held it. Both Vespasian and Titus were called, "TITVS FLAVIVS CAESAR."

The fact that Titus destroyed the temple meant that he forever ended the Law making him, "the lawless one." Titus completely and utterly destroyed the city and sanctuary making him the "Prince of the people to come" in Dan 9. Titus ended the Jewish nation after 2,000 years in existence as God's chosen people removing them from the covenant Land for another 2,000 years. No figure in the Bible (although he is unnamed) had inflected more harm or longer lasting damage upon Israel than Titus. There isn't even a close second. Titus was from the 4th beast of Daniel 7, "dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth." He carried the remaining Jews away to Rome to be humiliated in a parade. An arch dedicated to Titus with an image of the temple burning stands next to the Roman Colosseum today, the site of many Jewish and Christian murders.

If Titus was not the Man of Sin (AKA antiChrist) then a future one who did everything Titus did would need to come and a new temple would need to be built. Why look past a perfect historical match?

 

[VCO]

whats the sigificance of moving the moutains ?

CAVES TO HIDE IN!