A Study of Torah from Gen. - Rev.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 25, 2015
9,216
3,194
113
It might also be interesting to note, that the purpose of the light on the first day is to set out a period of time, thus it says:

And the evening and the morning were the first day.

this of course being established on the first day becomes the normal time period which repeats every day afterwards. The sun moon then act as governors of this set time period of God.

In essense what I am suggesting and exploring is if the light of the first day is no physical but rather the establishment of the day time period. The visible aspect of this is established on the 4th day. and thus the similar language.
Something I struggle with sometimes is to understand that God created time. God doesn't need a watch to tell time because He is the Creator of all. It is my mind that is just to small to think that far.

You are right that time was created on day 4
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
Now this is interesting, as you mentioned the light is a different word, but notice this:

Gen_1:18 And to ruleH4910 over the dayH3117 and over the night,H3915 and to divideH914 H996 the lightH216 fromH996 the darkness:H2822 and GodH430 sawH7200 thatH3588 it was good.H2896

The sun and the moon rule over the day and the night which were established on day 1. and they divide the Light here the word light is the same as the one in verse 4. So the purpose of this physical light is to rule and divide the light form day one.
 
Jan 25, 2015
9,216
3,194
113
Now this is interesting, as you mentioned the light is a different word, but notice this:

Gen_1:18 And to ruleH4910 over the dayH3117 and over the night,H3915 and to divideH914 H996 the lightH216 fromH996 the darkness:H2822 and GodH430 sawH7200 thatH3588 it was good.H2896

The sun and the moon rule over the day and the night which were established on day 1. and they divide the Light here the word light is the same as the one in verse 4. So the purpose of this physical light is to rule and divide the light form day one.
Or it could be dividing the Light (God) from the darkness H2822 (Lucifer)(the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness: - dark (-ness), night, obscurity.) :)
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
Something I struggle with sometimes is to understand that God created time. God doesn't need a watch to tell time because He is the Creator of all. It is my mind that is just to small to think that far.

You are right that time was created on day 4
I am actually suggesting that time was created or established on day 1. that is how there is a measurement on day one. chapter 4 God gives the sun and moon to govern those set times.
 
Jan 25, 2015
9,216
3,194
113
I am actually suggesting that time was created or established on day 1. that is how there is a measurement on day one. chapter 4 God gives the sun and moon to govern those set times.
OOOHHHHHHHHHH :)
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
sorry I meant day 4 not chapter 4, lol
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
The light on day one does not seem to be physical as one of the purposes of the sun was to give light on the earth, this suggests that the light on day one does not give light on the earth.

The fact that the sun and moon are given to time and seasons suggests they are given in connection to the established time God made in day 1.

The fact that they govern the day and night suggest that there was nothing to govern them on day 1 other than they simply were because god said. I am just vocalising my thoughts.
 
Jan 25, 2015
9,216
3,194
113
The light on day one does not seem to be physical as one of the purposes of the sun was to give light on the earth, this suggests that the light on day one does not give light on the earth.

The fact that the sun and moon are given to time and seasons suggests they are given in connection to the established time God made in day 1.

The fact that they govern the day and night suggest that there was nothing to govern them on day 1 other than they simply were because god said. I am just vocalising my thoughts.
We were taught that time was created on day 4 in our Genesis Hebrew series but I can't remember how our Pastor came to this conclusion :) . If I remember I will listen to it again...
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,534
87
48
Before we move on, I feel there is a need for a disclaimer. Well 2 in fact.
1... We will are going to start looking at some parts of Law, that will most likely bring our the worst in some. Just be clear, that I really don't concern my self with what others do, or follow. I am not here to change you, and I don't need you trying to change me. It is not mans job to change others, that job is left to the Holy Spirit, and only Him. After all, for man to change a person, is really not possible at all. At lest not for real change to take place. As real change takes place only in the hear, and not in the mid, or actions of any of us.

2... You will find what some may think is an advert ion to looking at Paul. Trust me that is wrong. Paul is a great writer, and well versed in Law. Much more than any of us. I try to stay clear of pulling Paul into any study, as ever the Word tells us,
2Pe 3:15 ¶And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—
2Pe 3:16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

If Peter seen fit, and the Spirit seen fit to worn us of how Paul would used, then would it not be fitting to see most teachings of man, that turn to Paul, and will not look at the red letters, as they are, with skepticism? I do pray that when this studyis done, we can turn to a studyof Paul. Not his writtings, rather of the man himself. I am sure that once there is a full understanding of the man, his writtings will be seen for what they are.
After all it hard to take the side of a man that seems to ride both sides of the fence. We know that isn't true, yet when Paul makes statements like the following,
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Leaving one to think this may be telling us that we must keep the law.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Giving fuel for not keeping the law. Or this,
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Letting us know that we can still sin even if we are under garce, and not Law. Or what about this,
Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

I trust I have made my point about Paul. We can talk of Law and grace, use only Paul, and never find the truth. That is unless we place into His own life, time, and teachings. To thin that when Paul talks of Scripture, he is talking of his own writings, only serves to mislead. After Paul didn't have his wrings to work from, He only had what we call the OT. SO all his writings must be understood and keep in context with the scripture he had at hand. To place his teachings in contrast with the only scripture he had to teach from, would place Paul as one not to hear at all. Think about it, if someone used the scriptue to show you that Yeshua can not be HaShem, and that placing your salvation in faith in him did no good. Would you hear them out? I would find myself wanting that person gone.
So to remove Paul from his true teaching, by not understanding the man, is kind of what is done. I know I am going to get some flack for this, yet it had to be said. So before we move on, lets get that out of the way.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,534
87
48
How do I keep posting 2 of the same thing?
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
Oh ok I went back to see where we had got to and then realised the 7th day is next. now I understand why you wrote what you did about Paul. Took me a bit but I got there Lol.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
So some interesting observations on the four verses that I would like to hear from others on:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This is how they appear in the KJV.

In my Tanakh version it reads much the same, but a few differences. One is this part:



Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:

The other version puts it like so: And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy:

Small difference and does indeed fit the words used in Hebrew thoughts?

Also they structure the sentences different in verse 4 they only write:

Such is the story of heaven and earth when they were created.

Then they put: when the Lord God made the earth and heaven attached to the beginning of verse 5. They are not breaking any rules and it does seem more consistent with the flow from the orderly account to the focus on humanity in chapter 2.

And last but not least the Complete Jewish Bible version says this:

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce.

now that got my attention, because I don't see it in the wording yet this author saw fit to put it. I began to try to find why they would get this idea. All I found is the connection to the fact that God blessed the day.

IF you study the result of God blessing something like Adam and Eve or Noah or crops or animals it always results in reproduction. Be fruitful and multiply. thoughts?[/FONT]
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
I trust I have made my point about Paul. We can talk of Law and grace, use only Paul, and never find the truth. That is unless we place into His own life, time, and teachings. To thin that when Paul talks of Scripture, he is talking of his own writings, only serves to mislead. After Paul didn't have his wrings to work from, He only had what we call the OT. SO all his writings must be understood and keep in context with the scripture he had at hand. To place his teachings in contrast with the only scripture he had to teach from, would place Paul as one not to hear at all. Think about it, if someone used the scriptue to show you that Yeshua can not be HaShem, and that placing your salvation in faith in him did no good. Would you hear them out? I would find myself wanting that person gone.
So to remove Paul from his true teaching, by not understanding the man, is kind of what is done. I know I am going to get some flack for this, yet it had to be said. So before we move on, lets get that out of the way.
God can use an unbeliever represented by a donkey in a cerimonial law to bring his gospel. The gospel is after no man

First and foremost I would suggest that it’s not the book of Moses but the first five chapters of the 66 altogether make up the one book of prophecy. Trying to pit one of the holy men of old that God moved according to His good will and not the will of men against another as if that prophecy were private interpretations .I would think could be a form of blasphemy which is attributing the work of God to either Moses or Paul. When men do that a red warning flag goes up with myself. Some do the same with Paul and James

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

It really does not matter if Paul had the first five books or not. He was moved to record he words of God’s will the same as that of Moses. Both in the truest form are apostles as those sent from God with the word of God.Not the word of Moses, the word of Ballams ass, or the word of Paul. What God calls together in that way let no man call seperate

Paul before he was converted served a law of the fathers as a false zeal for knowing God and therefore was killing the Christian who would not serve the law of the father. They walked by sight in respect to killing Christians according to the law of the fathers ....out of sight out of mind.

This is when men called men Rabbi or Father violating the law of God who as law informs to call no man on earth Father or Rabbi because one is our Father as our Rabbi in heaven . In the end of the matter we do not look to the flesh of any of the prophets as a source of Christ faith. Christ alone is that source.

Perhaps studying the law of the fathers and how it apposed the gospel would be more beneficial in looking at the perfect law of God the Bible or called book of the law also called the book of prophecy
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
In my Tanakh version it reads much the same, but a few differences. One is this part:



Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:

The other version puts it like so: And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy:

Small difference and does indeed fit the words used in Hebrew thoughts?

Also they structure the sentences different in verse 4 they only write:

Such is the story of heaven and earth when they were created.
To sanctify something is to set it apart for a certain purpose . God sanctified mount Sinai as he set it apart to be used as a shadow of that not seen from other mountains that had the same rudiments of this world (dust) as that in which he formed man of by. We do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world. It fulfilled its purpose and left no residue blessing. Some of the Jews would look to it as a idol today in the same way as with the wall of the temple.You could say shadow worshippers.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,534
87
48
God can use an unbeliever represented by a donkey in a cerimonial law to bring his gospel. The gospel is after no man

First and foremost I would suggest that it’s not the book of Moses but the first five chapters of the 66 altogether make up the one book of prophecy. Trying to pit one of the holy men of old that God moved according to His good will and not the will of men against another as if that prophecy were private interpretations .I would think could be a form of blasphemy which is attributing the work of God to either Moses or Paul. When men do that a red warning flag goes up with myself. Some do the same with Paul and James
Al though the Torah does hole some prophecy, it is still the Laws. When any one trys to use Paul to say the Laws is gone, then yes red flags should go up, as that is pitting Paul against the whole of the Word, even to the point of pitting HIm against Yeshua.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20
One thing we must keep in mind, is that Moses was not moved by the Spirit of HaShem, rather he got the law straight from HaShem. It was only after talking with HaShem that it was placed in written form.

It really does not matter if Paul had the first five books or not. He was moved to record he words of God’s will the same as that of Moses. Both in the truest form are apostles as those sent from God with the word of God.Not the word of Moses, the word of Ballams ass, or the word of Paul. What God calls together in that way let no man call seperate

Paul before he was converted served a law of the fathers as a false zeal for knowing God and therefore was killing the Christian who would not serve the law of the father. They walked by sight in respect to killing Christians according to the law of the fathers ....out of sight out of mind.

This is when men called men Rabbi or Father violating the law of God who as law informs to call no man on earth Father or Rabbi because one is our Father as our Rabbi in heaven . In the end of the matter we do not look to the flesh of any of the prophets as a source of Christ faith. Christ alone is that source.
We are not told not to call others Rabbi rather not be Rabbi our selves.
Mat 23:8 “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.



Perhaps studying the law of the fathers and how it apposed the gospel would be more beneficial in looking at the perfect law of God the Bible or called book of the law also called the book of prophecy
When the Law enters into the NT, it will be pointed out. Just as the parts of the Law that everyone folllows will be. This does include the teachs of the Law being nailed to the cross, as they do follow some parts of it. Though it is funny to watch them try to twist the words of any that point this out. You will see they won't say they don't follow the parts pointed out as them following it, just side step it by trying to say one bad thing or the other about the one pointing it out.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,534
87
48
Gen 9:1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.
Gen 9:2 “And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand.
Gen 9:3 “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.
Gen 9:4 “But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.



One thing we must keep in mind here is that even today this holds true. The blessing placed on man, the animals still hold a fear of man. As can be seen in their unwillingness to be seen by us. This holds true for almost every animal that was not raised by an, and even someone that were. Ever had a cat hide from people that came over to visit? Or a dog that just didn't like anyone?

As we see in verse 3, HaShem gave all things as food. There simply no way to change this, and I will not try to. Yet as we will see in Lev. when we get there, this was changed. At lest to some extent.

Gen 9:5 “Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.

This is rather self explanatory. I see no need to give any thing more on it.

Gen 9:9 “And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants after you,
Gen 9:10 “and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth.

Here we find the first covenant in witch HaShem makes with man, and ask nothing in return. It can be said that HaShem has entered a one sided covenant, with all his creation. Setting the president for others that will follow.

Gen 9:11 “Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
Gen 9:12 And God said: “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:13 “I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
Gen 9:14 “It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud;
Gen 9:15 “and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.

As I see we have some posting on here that have in times past disrupted other threads of this nature, It should be known that if The Law had been removed, you would loss this one promise as well. Yet with every rain, (except at night when you can't see it) their is a rain bow. As this is a sign of this covenant, one must conclude that it still holds. As such, then we can say that not all The Torah was removed. I my self, once more really am not worried about what others may think. I follow what I follow, I teach the Word for what the word really does say. Most of all, I can not be moved from what the Word tells me.

Gen 9:18 Now the sons of Noah who went out of the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And Ham was the father of Canaan.

It is of interest that HaShem seen fit to name only one son, Canaan. At lest in my mind, this is to say keep an eye on this family.

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard.
Gen 9:21 Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent.

So the first thing we find Noah doing is getting drunk. Does this mean that he was a drunk before hand? To many it does, yet one must wonder. After all did the word not say that Moses was righteous? No it said he was righteous in his generation. In other words, He was just better than everyone around him. No one, no matter what they think or say, is ever 100% with out sin. Though some will say that Enoch, and Elisha were. For the wages of sin is death, and nether of them tasted death, rather were taken.

Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside.
Gen 9:23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness.
Gen 9:24
So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him.
Gen 9:25
Then he said: “Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren.”

So why did Canaan get this curse and not Ham? Some say that Canaan was the first to see Noah, and that he went and told Ham. Doing so in a disrespectful manner. Other say that Canaan had done something to Noah, as the Word says Noah knew what his younger son had done to him. We will really never know the answer to this. Yet Noah does go on to bless the other 2.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
Something I struggle with sometimes is to understand that God created time. God doesn't need a watch to tell time because He is the Creator of all. It is my mind that is just to small to think that far.
I'm not sure why anyone would "struggle" with the concept of time as related to the earth and its inhabitants. While time is meaningless to God (for whom 1,000 years are equivalent to one day), it is extremely relevant to man, and to the redemption of mankind. The Bible says that "When the FULNESS OF TIME was come, God did something stupendous (Galatians 4:4,5):

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.