The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

The book of Revelation is written in 96-98AD says my Bible notes, wikipedia and many websites including Christian courier and the early church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus, Victorinus and such.

Link: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

I think those early church Fathers are pretty reliable since they were closer to the events than we on the dating, but honestly WHO knows, it is just what my Bible note said

Hello Bogadile,

PW and those who believe as he does will insist that the book of Revelation was written around 70 AD, otherwise if it was written around 96 AD, which it was, it destroys their whole belief that Jesus has already returned and that all end-time events have already taken place in 70 AD. For the book of Revelation to be written in 96 AD is detrimental to their belief.

It was during Domitian's reign (81 AD - 96 AD) that John was exiled to Patmos.

 

[tanakh]

This is the will of the Father who sent me, that all He has given me
I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this
is the will of him that sent me that everyone who sees the Son and
believes in him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at
the last day.

John 6: 39-40

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:44

Whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life
and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:54

Martha said to him; ''I know that he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day''

John 11:24

No Brainer question - Which day did Jesus say that the resurrection/rapture was going to happen?

If I were a Gambler I would bet it was on the last day.
When is that? When Jesus returns

For those who search for loopholes and wriggle room. Try taking Christs words to say exactly what they mean for once in the same way his Disciples did who had never heard him speak about Pre or Mid Trib raptures.

 

[Burninglight]

I was a Volunteer Prison Chaplain for 15 years in Super Max Prison.

I donate to the Food Bank.

I take sandwhichs (usually giant size Hoggies) to people holding up signs "NEED FOOD".

You should see their eyes when I hand them that instead of the loose change in my pocket.
I always tell them, "Thank Jesus, not me, HE is the one who put it on my heart."

I donate my used clothes to the Salvation Army.

I have picked up hitchhikers in the desert who needed a ride and water,
and of course I witnessed to them.

I visit the sick, and especially the elderly.

YES, living those VERSES has been a part of my life for a long time.

I do hope you plan on sharing that sandwich.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No Brainer question - Which day did Jesus say that the resurrection/rapture was going to happen? If I were a Gambler I would bet it was on the last day. When is that? When Jesus returns

When Jesus mentioned "the last day" He also included the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust within that "last day", and there is a gap of over 1,000 years between those two resurrections (when we examine all the other Scriptures). So we should not assume that "the last day" is a 24-hour period, just as "the Day of the LORD" is not a 24 hour period.

Getting back to the Rapture (or more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints) we find that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints at His second coming "with power and great glory". It is erroneously assumed that there must be a close connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture, but that is not necessarily so. The Tribulation -- by definition -- is a period of wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly, but as far as Christians are concerned God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation. Therefore when the Resurrection/Rapture is taken as the culmination of salvation, then it must be BEFORE any Tribulation period.

 

[Bogadile]

tanakh what you need to take into consideration that even if the rapture is at the last 24hour day, there is still a 1000 year gap between that resurrection and the resurrection of the "rest of the dead".

So I would make the argument there that since we know day is like a thousand years to the Lord, that the last day spoken of in John 6 spans +1000 years.

 

[Burninglight]

I do not know yet. I am from Finland as you can see, the majority of the population here is born into the Lutheran church, which is amillennial.
However I have started to question this teaching because of the way the word resurrection is used in a literal sense in Rev 20, and because the Millennial Kingdom makes possible the numerous prophecies in the Old Testament that cannot be fulfilled in eternity, such as someone considered dying early if they die at 100, as we know in the new heaven and earth there is no death.

So currently I am confident there will be a 1000 year reign, I still do not know where to place the rapture however, therefore I keep asking the questions I do. Both sides have strengths and weaknesses.

To be honest I don't know what it will be like, but I know from explicit Scripture what it is not. Pre-trib teaches that Jesus can rapture you right now, but 2 Thes. 2 says certain things have to happen first before we are gathered to together (Raptured); Also, Jesus said he won't be showing up until after the tribulation of those days Mat 24; so, there are no Scriptures to support a quiet thief like return of Christ to rapture us and then we come back with Christ. I just don't see it. I cannot base my beliefs on man's poor inferences. We also know that it won't happen exactly in the middle of the 7 year period either. So until we see a one world government and the antichrist, we know that we won't be raptured now, but we should live like today is our last day, because for some of us it every well maybe.

 

[Jackson123]

When Jesus mentioned "the last day" He also included the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust within that "last day", and there is a gap of over 1,000 years between those two resurrections (when we examine all the other Scriptures). So we should not assume that "the last day" is a 24-hour period, just as "the Day of the LORD" is not a 24 hour period.

Getting back to the Rapture (or more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints) we find that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints at His second coming "with power and great glory". It is erroneously assumed that there must be a close connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture, but that is not necessarily so. The Tribulation -- by definition -- is a period of wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly, but as far as Christians are concerned God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation. Therefore when the Resurrection/Rapture is taken as the culmination of salvation, then it must be BEFORE any Tribulation period.

Paul said rapture is after tribulation

2 thesalonians 2

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[RickyZ]

Greetings,

The on-going problem and confusion regarding the timing of the gathering of the church, is due to the continued misinterpretation of the wrath of God. The pre-wrath view excludes seals 1 thru 6 and that because of the announcement after the 6th seal is poured out which says "the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it."

Their error is not understanding that the words "has come" is in the aorist tense which is referring to the wrath of God in its entirety "has come," which encompasses all of the seals that will have previously taken place, as well as the trumpets and bowls which are to follow. In fact, we can find the announcement that "God's wrath has come" in each set of seven judgments. So the words "has come" is not only referring to what takes place after that announcement, but includes the seals that will have previously taken place.

In further support of this, you have to take into account that it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals. Many people slice and dice the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, when they are three sets of seven judgments that belong together and not some being tribulation of man or Satan and others God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, the wrath of God, that has been prophesied about from the OT prophets to the apostles.

Since the believer in Christ is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, the church will be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

For those who would believe that the church will go through the seals and the trumpets, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, the fatalities would be over half of the earths population and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor from the seven bowl judgments.

Not understanding the severity and purpose of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is also a reason for believing that the church will go through them. Yet regarding God's wrath, we have the following promises:

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10

For those who would attempt to restrict the wrath spoken above as just referring to judgment and the lake of fire, it is referring to any and all wrath. And that because the believer in Christ has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. Therefore, there is no reason for the church to go through God's wrath, whether the wrath that is coming or the wrath at the great white throne judgment. We are not appointed to suffer any of it and that because Jesus already suffered it on behalf of every believer.

To say the aorist tense (which has been refuted by many) applies retroactively is a stretch.

The bowls are SPECIFICALLY said to contain God's wrath. The seals and trumpets are not, outside of the questionable application of that aorist tense.

God DOES NOT spare His people from judgment - and the world will be judged. God DOES spare His people from His wrath, and the world will see His wrath.

And what another person said about there being mass die-offs during the time of judgment is correct. The number of people who survive to the end of judgment and are physically raptured alive will be a very, very small number.

 

[Ahwatukee]

This is the will of the Father who sent me, that all He has given me
I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this
is the will of him that sent me that everyone who sees the Son and
believes in him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at
the last day.

John 6: 39-40

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:44

Whosoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life
and I will raise him up on the last day

John 6:54

Martha said to him; ''I know that he will rise again in the resurrection
at the last day''

John 11:24

No Brainer question - Which day did Jesus say that the resurrection/rapture was going to happen?

If I were a Gambler I would bet it was on the last day.
When is that? When Jesus returns

For those who search for loopholes and wriggle room. Try taking Christs words to say exactly what they mean for once in the same way his Disciples did who had never heard him speak about Pre or Mid Trib raptures.

Hello Tanakh,

The problem here regarding the reference to "the last day" is that you are not interpreting it properly. You're looking at that phrase as referring to a specific day so that everyone is resurrected on that specific day. The reference to "the last day" covers the entire end-time period. As I have already demonstrated from scripture, there are several resurrections and those who are changed and caught up which takes place at different times. So already, the idea that "the last day" is referring to one specific day is disproven.

The Last day represents the entire time period of the end time process. Therefore, any resurrection that takes place during that time, is happening in the last day. This is also true regarding the phrase "the day of the Lord" or "the hour of trial," which is neither a day or an hour in length, but represents the entire time of God's wrath.

It is the same with the phrase "first resurrection," which includes all resurrections and those caught up prior to the resurrection which takes place at the great white throne judgment.

Those being raised up at the "last day" include the church, which is resurrected and caught up just prior to that time of God's wrath, the Male Child/144,00 who is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven, the two witnesses who are resurrected also in the middle of the seven years, the great tribulation saints who are resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

All of the above will have been raised up at the last day, last time, during the time of the end.

It is paramount in understanding the meanings of these phrases in order to come to a right conclusion.

Not everything is as it appears.

 

[RickyZ]

But to boil it all down, other than some being unprepared and turning away, I'm not really concerned that it will be pre, mid, or post, I'm just glad that at SOME point we're going!

 

[J7]

But to boil it all down, other than some being unprepared and turning away, I'm not really concerned that it will be pre, mid, or post, I'm just glad that at SOME point we're going!

Lol.

First class, business or economy --- as long as we get there

 

[Jackson123]

But to boil it all down, other than some being unprepared and turning away, I'm not really concerned that it will be pre, mid, or post, I'm just glad that at SOME point we're going!

yes we are tired of living on rusty earth with all problem.

 

[Bogadile]

The bowls are SPECIFICALLY said to contain God's wrath. The seals and trumpets are not, outside of the questionable application of that aorist tense.

But who opens the seals? The Lamb. And trumpets and seals are both also very devastating. It is clearly God's wrath.

 

[RedeemedGift]

An alternative view is the 4 winds are the 4 gospels.

Why would anyone interpret it that way? The four Gospel accounts weren't even written when Jesus was making the Olivet discourse. There is only one Gospel. Search your Bible.. the four winds always refer to the physical earth, like Revelation 7:1 for example.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The bowls are SPECIFICALLY said to contain God's wrath. The seals and trumpets are not, outside of the questionable application of that aorist tense.

I've already provided scriptures that make the same announcement in each set of seven, so I don't know why you are resisting this. One announcement is made at the 6th seal, the next at the 7th trumpet and then regarding the bowl judgments. Now, you are either going to believe that or provide an apologetic.

To say the aorist tense (which has been refuted by many) applies retroactively is a stretch.

This is false. I am correct with the information regarding the aorist tense. For I have studied it for myself. The announcement is speaking about God's wrath in its entirety. What it is not saying at the 6th seal is that God's wrath is about to begin. For the opening of the first seal is what initiates God's wrath.

It is amazing to me when people exclude the seals and trumpet judgments from being included as apart of God's wrath, when they make up the worst of God's wrath.

God DOES NOT spare His people from judgment

The Lord most certainly will spare his church from being included in his wrath. This is the crux of your error! For you would have God punishing those who are made righteous in Christ with the wicked and we know that God does not do this.

Your view also comes from a lack of understanding of the severity of God's wrath, its purpose and those whom scripture says it will be directed to. And it surely won't be against those who have already received Christ and have be credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Because of your view, you have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

And what another person said about there being mass die-offs during the time of judgment is correct. The number of people who survive to the end of judgment and are physically raptured alive will be a very, very small number.

So much for our "blessed hope!" And so much for Paul's assurance for believers to comfort each other in regards to the living in Christ being changed and caught up. By having the church go through God's wrath, there would be no blessed hope nor could believers comfort each other with the hope of being changed and caught up.

With your view, you have the same wrath being poured on the righteous as with the wicked.

===============================================

While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

The above infers the opposite of not escaping, meaning that, where the unrigheous will not escape, you brothers and sisters will.

You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

I've already presented this to you, but here is again:

Said at the 6th Seal:
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[SUP]f[/SUP] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Said at the 7th Trumpet:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

So, we see that the reference to God's wrath has been made twice here, once at the 6th Seal and the other at the 7th Trumpet. Therefore, since these take place prior to the bowl judgments, how can you claim that only the bowls represent the wrath of God?

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all represent God's wrath, with the bowl judgments, which are last, completing God's wrath. If you continue to claim that God's wrath only consists of the bowl judgments, then you are just ignoring scripture.

 

[VCO]

But it already has been fulfilled. The more I study the events in and around 70 AD and compare them to Revelation, the more things line up. All of the seals, trumpets and bowls have been completed. Babylon, the Harlot was Jerusalem and she was burned up.

Jerusalem was "prostituting" herself with Rome, acknowledging the Caesars as her king, instead of Christ. The wise men declared baby Jesus, "King of the Jews," a title repeated later by Pilate. The Jewish leaders rejected this title and instead insisted that they have no king but Caesar. The Roman solders also put this title above our Savior on a sign when they crucified Him.

The beast that carried Jerusalem was Rome, not future Rome, past Rome. John wrote Revelation sometime between Dec 21, 69 AD and Apr 14, 70 AD. The report that Revelation was written in 95/96 AD must be false and it has always been debated. The reason I know this is because of this passage:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

From the start of Christ to Nero there were 5 Roman Emperors all who demand to be worshiped as God. They were: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero. Following Nero's death in 68 AD, there was an internal civil war in Rome where three man briefly claimed the throne but none were confirmed by the Senate. So, when John wrote to the churches, 5 had past and the one that is was Vespasian who were appointed Caesar on Dec 21, 69 AD. This makes Titus, the one to come, the 7th. When Titus arrived, he stayed just 5 months having destroyed Jerusalem and then returned to Rome.

I'm still studying the ten horns and wondering if they were leaders of the auxiliary troops brought in by Titus to help. The certainly hated Israel and contributed into destroying her.

We were told you would be come, and WE WILL NOT BELIEVE YOU.

Matthew 24:22-31 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it!
[SUP]24[/SUP] False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Take note: I have told you in advance.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] So if they tell you, ‘Look, He’s in the wilderness!’ don’t go out; ‘Look, He’s in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Wherever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[Bogadile]

A verse just popped into my mind when I was reading the seals trumpets and vials thing.
It is clear that the seals are opened by the Lamb and are God's wrath, and here is the verse that popped into my mind:

Genesis 18:25 "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

 

[tanakh]

When Jesus mentioned "the last day" He also included the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust within that "last day", and there is a gap of over 1,000 years between those two resurrections (when we examine all the other Scriptures). So we should not assume that "the last day" is a 24-hour period, just as "the Day of the LORD" is not a 24 hour period.

Getting back to the Rapture (or more precisely the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints) we find that Christ must first come FOR His saints before He can come WITH His saints at His second coming "with power and great glory". It is erroneously assumed that there must be a close connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture, but that is not necessarily so. The Tribulation -- by definition -- is a period of wrath against the unbelieving and the ungodly, but as far as Christians are concerned God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation. Therefore when the Resurrection/Rapture is taken as the culmination of salvation, then it must be BEFORE any Tribulation period.

Much of this is interpretation Paul says that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep so he doesn't have to come to collect anyone first before the resurrection. There must be millions of believers who have died in the past 2000 years who will receive immortal bodies. Also Peter says in Acts 3 that Christ must remain in heaven until the consumation of all things. This cuts out a Pre Trib rapture unless He and the heavenly host are going to hover in space for seven years before it happens. Exactly why it supposed to take him seven years to arrive is another question which would make another thread interesting. Why is belief that the tribulation and the rapture being close errronious? If you read Christs answer in Matthew you will find he speaks about his coming after the tribulation of those days. You are the first Pre Tribber I have come across who has suggested it so there must be an awful amount who have it wrong

 

[VCO]

I do hope you plan on sharing that sandwich.

The one's I like to buy are sold by the Deli department at the SAFEWAY grocery store, and I could make three meals out of one sandwich. Unfortunate, I moved back to Nebraska after my wife died, and SAFEWAY grocery stores closed their doors here years ago.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why would anyone interpret it that way? The four Gospel accounts weren't even written when Jesus was making the Olivet discourse. There is only one Gospel. Search your Bible.. the four winds always refer to the physical earth, like Revelation 7:1 for example.

So true RedeemedGift,

Regarding this, here is another scripture that demonstrates the "the four winds, from one end of the heave to the other" is referring to the ends of the earth:

"Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war. They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens-- the LORD and the weapons of his wrath-- to destroy the whole country." - Isaiah 13:4-5

I know that people attempt to use the reference in Matt.24:31 which says "the angels will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" in an attempt to make it the church being gathered. But the fact is that it is talking about the angels gathering people from every corner of the earth, those who will have made it through the tribulation period, alive.