The Rapture
- Thread starter 2nicee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I answered both questions. He just didn't like the answers because he already has his biased opinion based on what he wants to see happen rather than what the Word actually teaches. But he's young and smart. There's a chance he'll see things differently down the road and reject these teachings of man.
Ahh, come on, THINK:
The answer to the riddle is really very simple in this modern era of computerized scanners.
TECHNOLOGY NEEDED TO FULFILL THE MARK OF THE BEAST
No 666 is not a symbol, it is only a number that identifies a man, IT SAYS SO, read it again.
Revelation 13:16-18 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.
In other words it is similar to our Social Security numbers. Only this one will be three groups of 6 digits. Henry Kissenger invented such a EMERGENCY plan in the late 90s, in case the perceived Y2K world wide banking crash actually happened. Since it is the computer age, it probably will be a number imbedded in a very small microchip or biochip as they want to call those designed for humans. They are already testing the (RFID) Radio Frequency Identification Devices in humans in Florida. In particular, for Seniors with Alzheimer's to store their health records on. Instead of the chip that was about twice the size of a grain of rice, like the one in my dog's neck; they have now shrunk the RFID down to not a whole lot bigger than a grain of salt. I posted the following on another site a couple years ago, so the technology is even more advanced now. I added two links at the bottom very recently, in fact that second to the bottom link was dated 20 Nov. 2013 and has a picture of the world's fastest super computer, which doubled the size and speed of the previous record holder. Those two links show that the world really does computers big enough and fast enough acomodate all the worlds bank accounts, and the fact that RFID readers are already starting to show up in stores, should make us sit up and take notice that the stage is set and the time could be very near.
WHAT IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST
The most likely thing the Mark of the Beast could be is a biochip implant, because of the Biblical statement that one will not be able to buy or sell anything without it. They currently have built into them up to a 15 digit ID numbering system. It will not surprise me, (if the Church is still here), when the Antichrist comes to power as the Head of State of the old Roman Empire; that he averts a world wide economic collapse by converting all of the worlds monitary systems and bank accounts to function like credit cards in the form of these implanted biochips. AND watch him add a number to all three hyphenated groups of numbers stored in those Biochip IDs, such as: 123456-123456-123456. Hence his number will be 666 (6 digits dash 6 digits dash 6 digits). Also some of the Techs working on these super computers that they believe we are going to need in the near future, have jokingly referred to their super computers as the "beast"; but I am not laughing.
HERE IS THE RFID MICROCHIP TV ADVERT 100% PROOF IT IS HERE - YouTube
IBM RFID Commercial - The Future Market - YouTube
Hitachi Releases 2.5mm C1G2 Durable RFID Tag: Host Louis Sirico - YouTube
Under Your SkinThe War against Freedom – Human Biochip Implant
Microchip Implants
Bio-chip implant arrives for cashless transactions
Tianhe-2 Tops Supercomputer List > ENGINEERING.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GovcXrEVCc
Hello Burninglight,
No, the problem is that you are not discerning between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would vs. the coming wrath of God which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
From the onset of the church to the present, those who are in Christ are suffering the trials and tribulation that Christ said believers would have. But once the church has been gathered, then what follows is the time period of God's wrath, beginning with the opening of the first seal.
"The tribulation of the those days" that Jesus is speaking of, is referring to the time of Jacobs trouble and the wrath of God that will be in operation during that last seven years and specifically the last 3 1/2 years. What Jesus is not referring to common trials and tribulation in the verse that you provided.
Trials and tribulations = Comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness
God's time of tribulation = the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the two witnesses
Your on-going error is not understanding that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. And because of this, you continue to back the two events synonymous, which they are not. And as long as you and others continue to not recognize the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, you will not understand end-time events.
You guys continue to be under the impression that if end-time events don't go according to what we have believed, that we some our faith just falls apart. If (and I say "if" for the benefit of this debate) was to not take place according to what I believe is saying, then if I were to be watching the news and see some political leader confirm a seven year covenant with Israel, allowing Israel to build her temple, then I would immediately go to God and pray for the strength to go through what know is about to take place. Because once I saw this leader make his seven year covenant, I would know that 3 1/2 years later that he is going to break it by causing Israel's sacrifices and offerings to cease and the setting up of the abomination in the temple.
You see, since I have been studying this information for over 40 years, I would not be taken off guard if events were to take place as you believe. I would anticipate each and every seal, trumpet and bowl judgment. Once the 7th bowl judgment was poured out, then I would know that Jesus would be immediately returning to the earth to end the age.
So to answer your question, I would begin to pray to God to give me the strength to endure all that is about to happen and to prepare me spiritually for the death of my body and that because I would be one of those who would not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark.
But the good news is that, Jesus said that he would keep believer out of that time of wrath. And scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it for us, so that we will not suffer God's wrath in any capacity.
No, the problem is that you are not discerning between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would vs. the coming wrath of God which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
From the onset of the church to the present, those who are in Christ are suffering the trials and tribulation that Christ said believers would have. But once the church has been gathered, then what follows is the time period of God's wrath, beginning with the opening of the first seal.
"The tribulation of the those days" that Jesus is speaking of, is referring to the time of Jacobs trouble and the wrath of God that will be in operation during that last seven years and specifically the last 3 1/2 years. What Jesus is not referring to common trials and tribulation in the verse that you provided.
Trials and tribulations = Comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness
God's time of tribulation = the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and the two witnesses
Your on-going error is not understanding that there is a difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. And because of this, you continue to back the two events synonymous, which they are not. And as long as you and others continue to not recognize the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, you will not understand end-time events.
You guys continue to be under the impression that if end-time events don't go according to what we have believed, that we some our faith just falls apart. If (and I say "if" for the benefit of this debate) was to not take place according to what I believe is saying, then if I were to be watching the news and see some political leader confirm a seven year covenant with Israel, allowing Israel to build her temple, then I would immediately go to God and pray for the strength to go through what know is about to take place. Because once I saw this leader make his seven year covenant, I would know that 3 1/2 years later that he is going to break it by causing Israel's sacrifices and offerings to cease and the setting up of the abomination in the temple.
You see, since I have been studying this information for over 40 years, I would not be taken off guard if events were to take place as you believe. I would anticipate each and every seal, trumpet and bowl judgment. Once the 7th bowl judgment was poured out, then I would know that Jesus would be immediately returning to the earth to end the age.
So to answer your question, I would begin to pray to God to give me the strength to endure all that is about to happen and to prepare me spiritually for the death of my body and that because I would be one of those who would not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark.
But the good news is that, Jesus said that he would keep believer out of that time of wrath. And scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it for us, so that we will not suffer God's wrath in any capacity.
Hello Rickyz,
Really? You are then just ignoring scripture at this point:
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
So, the only explanation regarding your claim, would be that you are symbolizing the references to the Lord and those following him on white horses.
Why are you denying what scripture states?
Really? You are then just ignoring scripture at this point:
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
So, the only explanation regarding your claim, would be that you are symbolizing the references to the Lord and those following him on white horses.
Why are you denying what scripture states?
I asked post-tribbers and you are a preterist, therefore you do not believe rapture WILL happen post-trib, but rather that it already DID happen and we missed it. (Very rare belief)
I do not think my opinion is biased, if anything you have a very uncommon position, outside of orthodoxy. I mean I just do not understand how you can say the rapture happened, nobody has been seen disappearing in a blink of an eye, ever. Oh yes I forgot they had to die and wait for it, that also does not make sense. Those who are alive and remain are caught up in the clouds! No mention of them waiting to die.
You are rushing these things for some reason wanting everything to be over and done, I do not believe the Word teaches what you are teaching, if I did I would accept it. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.
I do not think my opinion is biased, if anything you have a very uncommon position, outside of orthodoxy. I mean I just do not understand how you can say the rapture happened, nobody has been seen disappearing in a blink of an eye, ever. Oh yes I forgot they had to die and wait for it, that also does not make sense. Those who are alive and remain are caught up in the clouds! No mention of them waiting to die.
You are rushing these things for some reason wanting everything to be over and done, I do not believe the Word teaches what you are teaching, if I did I would accept it. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Hello Bogadile,
God bless you for contending for the truth! What preterists don't understand is that by believing and teaching that the resurrection has already taken place, they fall under the same wandered state that Hymenaeus and Philetus were in by the believing and teaching the same thing:
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Tim.2:16-18
By their belief and teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, regarding this Paul said the following:
* That it was godless chatter
* That this teaching would spread like gangrene
* That by this teaching they would become more and more ungodly
* That they had departed from the truth
* Their teaching was destroying the faith of some
All of the above can be applied to those who are currently believing and teaching that the resurrection has already taken place.
God bless you for contending for the truth! What preterists don't understand is that by believing and teaching that the resurrection has already taken place, they fall under the same wandered state that Hymenaeus and Philetus were in by the believing and teaching the same thing:
"Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." - 2 Tim.2:16-18
By their belief and teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, regarding this Paul said the following:
* That it was godless chatter
* That this teaching would spread like gangrene
* That by this teaching they would become more and more ungodly
* That they had departed from the truth
* Their teaching was destroying the faith of some
All of the above can be applied to those who are currently believing and teaching that the resurrection has already taken place.
Going to sleep so I want to repeat my question to post-tribbers once more:
I have two questions for you, how do you explain:
No.1 The Church is returning with Christ on horses wearing white linen @ Rev 19 BEFORE the "first resurrection" of Rev 20. Does this not prove they were already in heaven prior to the "first resurrection" in Rev 20?
No.2 Who will populate the millennium if all the wicked are killed at Christ's coming and the saints are raptured?
I have two questions for you, how do you explain:
No.1 The Church is returning with Christ on horses wearing white linen @ Rev 19 BEFORE the "first resurrection" of Rev 20. Does this not prove they were already in heaven prior to the "first resurrection" in Rev 20?
No.2 Who will populate the millennium if all the wicked are killed at Christ's coming and the saints are raptured?
B
I don't know. The Bible doesn't say, but what it does say is the rapture will not happen until the antichrist is revealed first. He is the one who will make Christians martyrs, and they will be given into his hands for a time, times and dividing of time. 2Thes. 2, and Jesus tells us clearly that after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and He'll return.
Now, I can speculate on your question like pre tribbers do with their non Scriptural pre tribulation theory if you can qualify it as a theory. The Bible says we'll judge angels. How do you know we won't be ruling over angels during that time? There are countless angels or how do you know God kills or destroys all the unbelieving people. you don't know; so, I say stick to what you can know and prove Scripturally and stop listening and believing man's conjectures. speculation theories and very poor inferences on what will be. I hope this helps you and answers your questions
Now, I can speculate on your question like pre tribbers do with their non Scriptural pre tribulation theory if you can qualify it as a theory. The Bible says we'll judge angels. How do you know we won't be ruling over angels during that time? There are countless angels or how do you know God kills or destroys all the unbelieving people. you don't know; so, I say stick to what you can know and prove Scripturally and stop listening and believing man's conjectures. speculation theories and very poor inferences on what will be. I hope this helps you and answers your questions
Last edited by a moderator:
B
Tribulation is or can be the cause of trails. The wrath of God happens but we don't know that we won't be witnessing some of it or all before we are gathered. God is going to be helping believers during their time of trails and persecution from mankind. Whether that involves Him opening the seals to do it or not, but we'll see something.
This is possible, but it isn't all that clear, but I'll give you that.
Yes, but what does Jacobs trouble have to do with God's wrath. It sounds more like the Jews having thought the antichrist was the messiah and finding out that after he causes the daily sacrifices to cease, he sets up the abomination of desolation that causes the Jews to realize he wasn't. The antichrist is the son of Satan in the flesh and wants their worship, and they won't do it that is why it is called Jacob's trouble.
Yes, correct.
The saints will see that, but I am not sure you can call it God's tribulation
I understanding where you're coming from. I used to believe that too, but that is a false Teaching that is about 200+ years old doctrine started by a 12 year old girl Margret McDonald and perpetuated by Scofield and Darby. there will not be a secret coming Jesus said don't believe it when they say he is here in the secret chamber or there. He said everyone will see Him. Stick with the Scripture don't listen to man's theories. You have the word and the Spirit of God depend only on that.
glad to hear you won't fall apart, but I have seen Christians fall apart that thought the rapture happened and they thought they were left behind. That is one reason I hate that false rapture doctrine.
That is good, but I believe all of us will hear the last trump and meet the Lord in the air
When that time comes, it will be tribulation and trail but God will give you the power for that time.
I think Jesus said keep you from that time of trail meaning you'll not give in to the temptation to give up or lose hope or faith in God, IOW, He will give you His strength to endure till the end. He doesn't say he'll rapture you away from your tribulation. If you think that, it is a poor inference from Scripture that is taught in the false pre-trib rapture doctrine. .
This is possible, but it isn't all that clear, but I'll give you that.
Yes, but what does Jacobs trouble have to do with God's wrath. It sounds more like the Jews having thought the antichrist was the messiah and finding out that after he causes the daily sacrifices to cease, he sets up the abomination of desolation that causes the Jews to realize he wasn't. The antichrist is the son of Satan in the flesh and wants their worship, and they won't do it that is why it is called Jacob's trouble.
Yes, correct.
The saints will see that, but I am not sure you can call it God's tribulation
I understanding where you're coming from. I used to believe that too, but that is a false Teaching that is about 200+ years old doctrine started by a 12 year old girl Margret McDonald and perpetuated by Scofield and Darby. there will not be a secret coming Jesus said don't believe it when they say he is here in the secret chamber or there. He said everyone will see Him. Stick with the Scripture don't listen to man's theories. You have the word and the Spirit of God depend only on that.
glad to hear you won't fall apart, but I have seen Christians fall apart that thought the rapture happened and they thought they were left behind. That is one reason I hate that false rapture doctrine.
That is good, but I believe all of us will hear the last trump and meet the Lord in the air
When that time comes, it will be tribulation and trail but God will give you the power for that time.
I think Jesus said keep you from that time of trail meaning you'll not give in to the temptation to give up or lose hope or faith in God, IOW, He will give you His strength to endure till the end. He doesn't say he'll rapture you away from your tribulation. If you think that, it is a poor inference from Scripture that is taught in the false pre-trib rapture doctrine. .
Last edited by a moderator:
When the beast in power, not only Jews suffer, He will have great authority to all nations, not only jews, and who ever/not only Jews, not take the mark will suffer, can buy food anymore
rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: , and power was given him over all kindred, and tongues and nations (not only Jews)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Some will go to prison, some will be kill
I talk to my cousin, and tell her that Christian still there not rapture yet, because these verses said same will be in prison or kill, how you kill if they in the clouds, she said it is happen to Christian that repent after rapture
1. She believe during rapture Holy Spirit being remove from the earth
without The help of the Holy Spirit, who able to repent or persist in persecution
Jesus said can not bear a fruits of it self.
2. I ask her to show me a verse or verses which tell that Christian who go to tribulation is christians that accept the Lord after tribulation, and she could not find
rev 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: , and power was given him over all kindred, and tongues and nations (not only Jews)
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Some will go to prison, some will be kill
I talk to my cousin, and tell her that Christian still there not rapture yet, because these verses said same will be in prison or kill, how you kill if they in the clouds, she said it is happen to Christian that repent after rapture
1. She believe during rapture Holy Spirit being remove from the earth
without The help of the Holy Spirit, who able to repent or persist in persecution
Jesus said can not bear a fruits of it self.
2. I ask her to show me a verse or verses which tell that Christian who go to tribulation is christians that accept the Lord after tribulation, and she could not find
Hello Jackson123,
Your cousin is correct! If you will notice, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used throughout Rev.1 thru 3. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." Likewise, from Rev.4 onward you will only see the word "Hagios/Saints" and you will not see the word Ekklesia/Church. The saints that are referred to is that great multitude wearing white robes which no man can count. These are the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Just as your cousin said, these are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.
Your cousin is correct! If you will notice, the word "Ekklesia" translated "church" is used throughout Rev.1 thru 3. Within those same chapters you will not find the word "Hagios" translated "Saints." Likewise, from Rev.4 onward you will only see the word "Hagios/Saints" and you will not see the word Ekklesia/Church. The saints that are referred to is that great multitude wearing white robes which no man can count. These are the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Just as your cousin said, these are those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign.
Rank bad false teaching I am afraid Ahwatukee.
There are no half-saints. The saints are the Church, and for you to teach and deceive gullible people on this is not good.
It hardly needs saying, but anyway, I say it. Paul makes it clear that the Saints are those who are raptured to be with Christ at his second coming.
2 thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
You shouldn't be allowed to get away with this stuff, but it is a forum, so you do.
There are no half-saints. The saints are the Church, and for you to teach and deceive gullible people on this is not good.
It hardly needs saying, but anyway, I say it. Paul makes it clear that the Saints are those who are raptured to be with Christ at his second coming.
2 thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.
You shouldn't be allowed to get away with this stuff, but it is a forum, so you do.
Yes, but that suffering will be by God's hand. The Lamb/Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, followed by the trumpets and then the bowl judgments. These are not common tribulation, but God's tribulation that has been prophesied by the OT prophets and the NT apostles as well.
If you were familiar with Dan.2:31-45, you would understand that the statue represents all human government. The ten-toed kingdom that the Rock/Jesus falls on, is that last kingdom under the control of the beast. When the Rock falls on the feet of the statue, it smashes it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blows it away without leaving a trace, which is figurative for bringing an end to all human government. Then the Rock/Jesus becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth, which is figuratively representing Christs' millennial kingdom.
So, the time of God's tribulation is not only restricted to Israel, but includes the entire earth, which is yet to come. There are many verses that also make known that this time of tribulation involves all of the inhabitant of the earth, as can be seen from the following:
One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast. They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”
Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Whenever you see the words "whole world" and "every tribe and people and tongue and nation" it means the Gentile nations, everyone other than Israel.
God is going to fulfill that last seven years that was decreed upon Israel and at the same time, he is going to pour out his wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world.
If you were familiar with Dan.2:31-45, you would understand that the statue represents all human government. The ten-toed kingdom that the Rock/Jesus falls on, is that last kingdom under the control of the beast. When the Rock falls on the feet of the statue, it smashes it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor and the wind blows it away without leaving a trace, which is figurative for bringing an end to all human government. Then the Rock/Jesus becomes a huge mountain and fills the entire earth, which is figuratively representing Christs' millennial kingdom.
So, the time of God's tribulation is not only restricted to Israel, but includes the entire earth, which is yet to come. There are many verses that also make known that this time of tribulation involves all of the inhabitant of the earth, as can be seen from the following:
One of the heads of the beast appeared to be fatally wounded. But the mortal wound was healed, and the whole world was astonished and followed the beast. They worshiped the dragon who had given authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can wage war against it?”
Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Whenever you see the words "whole world" and "every tribe and people and tongue and nation" it means the Gentile nations, everyone other than Israel.
God is going to fulfill that last seven years that was decreed upon Israel and at the same time, he is going to pour out his wrath upon the entire Christ rejecting world.