Not By Works
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this is exactly where im going now as like my friends in the dragons den say ............IM OUT
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
a straw Man?
the truth is the truth, either you are right, or we are, we are not both right, to say we are is universalism.
so I was right, you were preaching universalism saying we both had our way to heaven, that's wrong and s universalism,
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
He Who sins has never seen God r known him, he is of their father, the devil
he who is born of God can not sin, because his seed is in him and he can not sin,
he who who struggles has Gods spirit
h who does not struggle, has never met god, let alone known him or has he been adopted into his family
this s a fact john makes clear, yet the workers deny.
he who is born of God can not sin, because his seed is in him and he can not sin,
he who who struggles has Gods spirit
h who does not struggle, has never met god, let alone known him or has he been adopted into his family
this s a fact john makes clear, yet the workers deny.
Hi Grace,
John was speaking to Christians, not Gnostics. In his letter, John was warning them of gnostic beliefs and teaching them to not allow these false teachings to infiltrate their minds .......to be led astray.
John says, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin." Chapter 2:1
The apostles letters were to encourage, rebuke, exhort and train. In this letter, John is speaking to all believers. He's teaching them the way of truth in case any of them have been influenced by gnostic teaching.
Like Paul addressed the Galatians because a distortion of the gospel was deceiving them through false brothers, so John is warning believers because a distortion of the gospel is at hand.
In our relationship with God, there is a responsibility on our part to respond to truth; to obey.
We receive forgiveness because of us being in Christ because we're born-again; therefore we are going to ask for forgiveness because we have sinned and we know it.
Therefore if we truly are a believer we will confess our sin in obedience to our Lord and Savior. And He promises to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
John shows that we are in need of constant nourishment, constant care, constant cleansing.
1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
The word confess is present tense meaning continuous action. We keep on confessing our sin. And the one who continually confesses sin, is the one who is cleansed.
The contrast here is with the believer and the nonbeliever; light (believer) and darkness (unbeliever).
The one that says he has no sin is the very person who will not confess; he has no need of it because he doesn't see his sin. He is a liar and the truth is not in him.
But the one who has the truth, the believer, he/she will confess their sin and because they do they also receive forgiveness and cleansing.
If we call ourselves believers, John teaches we are the ones who receive God's faithfulness and His righteousness, and are totally cleansed from unrighteousness when we confess.
If we are in Christ, we desire to come clean so to speak. We desire to rid ourselves of the sin that so easily besets us. We want to unload and leave sin behind us .........why?.......... because we have the mind of Christ.
The one who never confess their sins are the ones of darkness, those who continue in sin, but say they don't have sin.
The if is contrasting light and darkness again. The believer from the nonbeliever. The if shows who is what. The liar unbeliever will say they have no sin and will not confess their sin.
The one who says they have sin and continues to confess their sin, they are the ones who love the Lord their God, the ones that are of the light, the ones that admit their sin and receive cleansing through confession.
This letter applies to all believers......as John said.......my little children. John was writing to those who know the Lord.
Gnosticism was prevalent in their generation so John is highlighting this false teaching to protect them from the lies of the enemy.
It would be like a church in our generation.
If Paul, Peter, John any of the apostles were writing to our church today, they would tell us what we're doing wrong and how we're allowing culture to creep in and distort the truth of the gospel.
And my goodness their letters would be quite lengthy wouldn't they when we consider all the false teaching that's crept in throughout the ages!
Everything the apostles taught us are those things that Jesus taught.
Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
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PHart
Guest
No, John plainly said he was talking to believers in 1 John:
1 John 2:1 NASB
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.
1 John 2:12-14 NASB
12I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. 13I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. 14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
It's very clear. The admonition to confess one's sins is for believers. Not so they can be saved all over again. But so they can keep their feet clean. Believers don't need to have an entire bath again (John 13:10). But we do need our feet washed when we walk in unrighteousness. You are mistaking the admonition to confess our sins as a recrucifying of Christ. Which it is not. It's simply an appeal to the one and only sacrifice for sin that exists, already on the altar in heaven, continually available to us for cleansing. It can't be construed as a confession of sin to be born again again. That is not allowed.
The whole point being, confession of sin for the believer is an expression of his faith in Christ. It's not a trampling of the blood of Christ as many misunderstand what the trampling of the blood of Christ is in Hebrews 10:29. The trampling of the blood is to reject it after being saved and to return to unbelief in a lifestyle of willful, unrepentant, unconfessed sin. It's hardly a trampling of the blood of Christ to continue to rely on it to make us righteous before God. It's interesting how in the doctrine you defend habitual unconfessed sin of the former believer is not a trampling on the blood, yet relying on the blood in a continuing faith and trust in Christ through confession and repentance is.
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PHart
Guest
We cross posted, lol.
This is exactly what John was doing.....warning believers in him to remain in Christ and not be led astray by false teachers. Not warning gnostics to get with the program. In fact, he exhorts them to shun the gnostics.
A son by birth will always be as on by birth.....the funny thing....our Spiritual birth is based upon INCORRUPTABLE SEED.......something that is INCORRUPTABLE is past the ability to be CORRUPTED by ANYTHING....
John was speaking to Christians and those in the church setting that are with them such as the Gnostics which believed that Jesus did not come in the flesh and that they didn't really have sin. Jesus said there would be tares in with the wheat.
John said "My little children " because he wanted "them" to know that they have an Advocate - Jesus the righteous one who is our righteousness. "
We don't go in and out of Christ and righteousness. that is a religious false doctrine that has been falsely preached by others and thus it's now a "sacred cow".
Either Christ is our righteousness or He isn't. You are free to believe whatever you want about 1 John 1:9. I too had a hard time with it initially because of my church teachings but I asked the Lord about it and He showed me the truth about it and no place else in the New Covenant does it say to "confess sins in order to be forgiven".
It's an Old Covenant belief system.
When we come to Christ - we confess that we do have sins and thus we are cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Then we are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Religion always gets the gospel and the things of Christ backwards and they are forever trying to achieve what Christ ahs already done by His finished work. The true gospel of the grace of God in Christ is liberating and His life in us gets us to walk godly in this present world.
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PHart
Guest
And that is why works are a required part of salvation. Not in order to earn us salvation, but as the expected and obligatory outcome of the born again nature. This is what James meant when he said the faith that has no works attached can not save. As even you can see in your own words, works being required to accompany salvation by faith apart from works does not automatically equate to a works salvation.
A works salvation is when a person believes their work literally earns them a declaration of being righteous. In all my thirty years as a Christian I have only met or talked to one or two, maybe three persons in the church who believed their works earned them a declaration of right standing with God. Needless to say, that is hardly the problem plaguing the church today. The exact opposite is true. So many think that James was wrong when he said the faith that has no works attached can't save. That is by far the falseness that rules the church at this present time.
Here is a great teaching on 1 John 1:9 in "context".
I know it goes against some of our church traditions but the truth behind this will free us from the works-based - un-believing in the gospel that has come to the body of Christ.
The message of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ can be seen in Acts 10 and Acts 13 as we have word-for-word accounts and it is all about the forgiveness of sins.
This continually confessing of sins in order to be righteous once be are in Christ is really an anti-Christ belief system when you see it for what it truly is. it is total un-belief in the work of Christ.
If this was so necessary as our religious teachings have taught us - why didn't Paul at least once write to tell Christians about it?
Instead Paul speaks of Christ and what he ahs done - that in Him we have redemption the forgiveness of sins. That we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. That we are sanctified, justified in Christ.
[video=youtube;Xf0B2zowsFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf0B2zowsFM[/video]
I know it goes against some of our church traditions but the truth behind this will free us from the works-based - un-believing in the gospel that has come to the body of Christ.
The message of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ can be seen in Acts 10 and Acts 13 as we have word-for-word accounts and it is all about the forgiveness of sins.
This continually confessing of sins in order to be righteous once be are in Christ is really an anti-Christ belief system when you see it for what it truly is. it is total un-belief in the work of Christ.
If this was so necessary as our religious teachings have taught us - why didn't Paul at least once write to tell Christians about it?
Instead Paul speaks of Christ and what he ahs done - that in Him we have redemption the forgiveness of sins. That we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. That we are sanctified, justified in Christ.
[video=youtube;Xf0B2zowsFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf0B2zowsFM[/video]
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jodyb
Guest
You say "works are a required part of salvation". I would agree that works are part of a Christian life, but not a required part of salvation. To me, that insults the sacrifice our Savior made for us.
This is a typical contradiction. We both believe in salvation by faith in Christ.How we express in and the emphasis varies.
So in truth we both can be right, because in theology we are actually identical, but
a few small emphasis changes makes one group ok and the other the enemy.
This is why as a whole we reject these distortions, which turn a small issue into
the deciding factor which is not how the gospel is preached.
Now to make this work, we have to be turned from brothers in Christ into people
doomed to hell and leading others to hell, yet we are actually the same. It is why
anti-legalism leads to some very odd conclusions
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PHart
Guest
Yes, and now the question is, "is the seed that is incorruptible going to continue to abide in you?"
1 John 2:24 NASB
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
The question is not in the veracity of the word of God. The question is whether or not the believer will continue to abide in that word which is incorruptible and be saved on the last Day. Calvinists say the believer will always believe and will, therefore, always be saved and can not be lost. Some say your return to unbelief has no bearing on your salvation and that you will always be saved despite the fact that you have no works. Still others say that you are saved as long as you believe.
It's only the second group I referred to who claim that works do not have to accompany salvation. The sad part is the first and second groups of posters here in this thread keep bouncing back between the these two very different and contrasting doctrines. Lot's of duplicity in this thread on the part of Calvinists and the Easy Believism groups. In one post they are Calvinist, in another post they are Easy Believism. I'm seeing this a lot in this forum and another I was a part of. That's why I call Easy Believism the ugly step sister of Calvinism. It seems to be this grotesque outgrowth of Calvinism, but which clearly is not in the family of Calvinistic doctrine. It crept in unawares into the church. So much so that even Calvinists don't recognize that it is in contradiction to their own beliefs. Not all OSAS doctrines are equal. The sooner Calvinists recognize this fact the sooner they can start resisting this absurd 'former believers are saved, too' doctrine sweeping through the church and leading little ones who believe in Jesus to hell (Matthew 18:6-9).
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UnderGrace
Guest
Whether you want to admit it or not you are working for your salvation. The very word obligatory makes it so.
James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
This dead faith is inactive and therefore people will see us and not know we are believers, it is not an obligation for salvation it is for the testimony and witness to unbelievers.
James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
This dead faith is inactive and therefore people will see us and not know we are believers, it is not an obligation for salvation it is for the testimony and witness to unbelievers.
The reason why we see in this forum and in others people say that the gospel message is to "believe" in Christ - because it is the gospel message.
Works-based salvationists just like to call it "easy believism" or cheap grace or some other derogatory term so that they can promote the false doctrine of works save us and keep us saved. That is anti-the gospel no matter how we try to pretty it up to look "righteous" and "good".
The end result of this teaching is that our loving Father and Lord throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire.That is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the very grace of God needed for true transformation.
Here is the gospel message as preached by Peter to the Gentiles. in Acts 10.
Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Here is the very same gospel message from Paul in Acts 13.
Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
In order to "believe" one needs the forgiveness of sins - they know they have sins. What if you had the belief - there is no such thing as sins? These were called Gnostics. Those John addressed in 1 John 1.
Works-based salvationists just like to call it "easy believism" or cheap grace or some other derogatory term so that they can promote the false doctrine of works save us and keep us saved. That is anti-the gospel no matter how we try to pretty it up to look "righteous" and "good".
The end result of this teaching is that our loving Father and Lord throw His beloved children into hell and the lake of fire.That is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the very grace of God needed for true transformation.
Here is the gospel message as preached by Peter to the Gentiles. in Acts 10.
Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Here is the very same gospel message from Paul in Acts 13.
Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
In order to "believe" one needs the forgiveness of sins - they know they have sins. What if you had the belief - there is no such thing as sins? These were called Gnostics. Those John addressed in 1 John 1.
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UnderGrace
Guest
So true, I wish people would examine the end result of their beliefs.
If we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He lives in us, does He go into the lake of fire as well.
Sealed means sealed.
In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13
If we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and He lives in us, does He go into the lake of fire as well.
Sealed means sealed.
In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I disagree, works is a RESULT of salvation, not a required part,
a child of God will work, there is not a question of if that, is what john is saying,
the reason a person who lives in sin has never seen God is because he has never been born of God,
He reason we say a person who has no work has dead faith is because faith works, work in a natural result of faith. If on claims to have faith but has no work, has deceived himself,
The way. See it, is When we say works are required and not a direct result of salvation is to say one must save themselves, and that the result of his works, his wage, or his reward, is salvation. Whether he says works saved, r is just to maintain salvation is no different, the end result is a works based gospel.
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PHart
Guest
No, I absolutely know for a fact that it is impossible to earn a declaration of right standing with God through doing work. I tried that. That's why I got saved. I found out it's impossible to earn salvation.
If my use of the word 'obligatory' can only mean I am working for my salvation then it means that when Paul used it it can only mean he was working for his salvation too, right?
Romans 8: NASB
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh
Are you willing to acknowledge that just maybe there is a way to understand the 'obligation' of righteous work being attached to salvation that doesn't automatically and categorically mean 'working for your salvation'? I hope so, because Paul himself said we have an obligation, not to the flesh, but to the Spirit. And he certainly was not saying we are saved by the merit of our work.
Can't you see in your own words that if works "bear out the justification that already came by faith" (which I agree with) that makes those works a necessary part that must accompany that salvation? Not to earn salvation, but as the expected and obligatory proof of the faith that produced those works.
No, dead faith means you are not a believer (or you are a former believer). That's what John said, not me...
1 John 2: NASB
4The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar...
The person who does not have the changed nature is not saved.
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