The Rapture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

RedeemedGift

Senior Member
May 28, 2017
158
41
28
34
This is the big one. Where are the Scriptures about a 2000 year delay gathering while they are in unbelief and reject Christ, where are the verses of return in unbelief.
Because the Messiah was "cut off", the offer of the Kingdom of Heaven was turned down by national Israel, hence the delay, hence the predominantly gentile Church age that we are in today. The church age could go on for another 1000 years, time doesn't really matter. Romans 11:25 is a good place for anyone to begin to understand.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Study thyself to be approved, rightly dviding the WORD of Josephus lol. No thanks my friend I don't believe a word of anything he wrote.

AD 70 and what went on in AD 70 have NOTHING to do with prophecy other than Jerusalem was destroyed. Most of the bible prophets gave plenty of ACCURATE details on WHEN and HOW it would go down.

I'm sorry for the vent, but I just think it's utterly ridiculous to send someone OUTSIDE of the bible for prophecy... Do you sudy the book of Enoch too? I don't see any evidence that going extra biblical has ever benefitted anyone, it seems to do the opposite.
I disagree. I think outside evidence can help solidify things but should NEVER change a clear Biblical teaching. I love when history PROVES the Bible.

Josephus was perhaps the most famous historian of his day and an eye witness to much of what happened before, during and after the War. Granted, he had a big spat with one of the main characters, either John or Simon (I forget which) and thus painted that person in probably more of an unfair light and I'm sure propped up his own image. Josephus was captured by the Roman's after fighting against them and he avoided death by cooperating with them. So some aspects we should take with a grain of salt. Being under Roman rule and at the right hand of Titus for much of this, I'm sure he wrote more kindly of the Romans, and Titus, than they deserved.

I don't see anything wrong with reading outside sources and getting more detail than what is contained in scripture. I have not read the Book of Enoch but I have read some of the Book of Jasher because it's cited in the Bible. Now that's an interesting read but I'm not saying I believe all of it.

Right now I'm reading some of the ancient Christian writers from the early second century. So far, none of them even mentioned a future return of Christ or the tribulation or a rapture. Don't you find that odd? They discuss dying and being with Christ a lot. Two of them were personal friends of John and mentored by him. For all the talk of Christ's return by the apostles one generation before them it sure is weird how quiet they are about it.
 
Last edited:
May 11, 2014
936
39
0
Because the Messiah was "cut off", the offer of the Kingdom of Heaven was turned down by national Israel, hence the delay, hence the predominantly gentile Church age that we are in today. The church age could go on for another 1000 years, time doesn't really matter. Romans 11:25 is a good place for anyone to begin to understand.
My question was: where are the verses of return in unbelief. Where are the verses of unbelieving Israel regathered.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
I doubt He even lets them build it although I know they are determined to do so. I spoke with a group of them when I was there in 2015, so I know how eager they are to rebuild the Temple. I just don't see it happening.
You will... :)

I don't understand how anyone could be a Preterist.

Carry on.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
I disagree. I think outside evidence can help solidify things but should NEVER change a clear Biblical teaching. I love when history PROVES the Bible.

Josephus was perhaps the most famous historian of his day and an eye witness to much of what happened before, during and after the War. Granted, he had a big spat with one of the main characters, either John or Simon (I forget which) and thus painted that person in probably more of an unfair light and I'm sure propped up his own image. Josephus was captured by the Roman's after fighting against them and he avoided death by cooperating with them. So some aspects we should take with a grain of salt. Being under Roman rule and at the right hand of Titus for much of this, I'm sure he wrote more kindly of the Romans, and Titus, than they deserved.

I don't see anything wrong with reading outside sources and getting more detail than what is contained in scripture. I have not read the Book of Enoch but I have read some of the Book of Jasher because it's cited in the Bible. Now that's an interesting read but I'm not saying I believe all of it.

Right now I'm reading some of the ancient Christian writers from the early second century. So far, none of them even mentioned a future return of Christ or the tribulation or a rapture. Don't you find that odd? They discuss dying and being with Christ a lot. Two of them were personal friends of John and mentored by him. For all the talk of Christ's return by the apostles one generation before them it sure is weird how quiet they are about it.
Nothing wrong with it lol. Then why are you trying to put this in AD 70?

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Ok dispies, you guys say the "70th" week is future, where do you see the destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24?

AD 70 is outside of Daniels 70 weeks. Take a look, where do we see AD 70 in Daniels 70 weeks?

Daniel 9:24 KJV
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Yeah, they want to skip over that destruction of the sanctuary and city and look for the next one, LOL.
 

RedeemedGift

Senior Member
May 28, 2017
158
41
28
34
My question was: where are the verses of return in unbelief. Where are the verses of unbelieving Israel regathered.
Unbelieving in what exactly? Israel has, as far as God is concerned, been in unbelief for at least 2000 years, whether you can describe them as religious or not. Jewish unbelief is plastered all throughout the New Testament.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
I have been to the website temple institute many times. It is just a few wingnuts, less than 1% of Jews want it.
Okay so you're saying the antichrist lets them build it, that makes sense to me, that would make the unlikely very likely.. Then he stops the sacrifices. All good.

The big burning question remains: during the time that sacrifices are made is it considered a good thing in the eyes of the Lord or not? Is the glory back in the temple during that time?
You need to understand the plan:

The seventy seven year periods were divided up into three parts:

1). 7 seven year period to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

2). 62 seven year periods at the end of which Messiah would be cut off

3). 1 sever year period established by the antichrist

After 69 seven year periods the Messiah was cut off Christ crucified. From that point on God paused that last seven to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age. From that time He began to build the church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord's promise to come back and take all believers back to the Father's house in John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17, will take place.

After the church has been gathered God will then pick up right where He left off with unbelieving Israel, fulfilling that last seven years, complete with a temple and sacrifices. God has unfinished business with Israel and prophesies regarding her that must be fulfilled.

Those who belong to the church, which is made up of both Jews and Gentiles, know and understand that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. For unbelieving Israel who did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, God has a separate program to bring about the end and the fulfillment of prophecy regarding her.

You also have to remember that this is God's plan and no one is going to interfere with it. This coming man of lawlessness is going to be the most charismatic person to have come along. He is going to receive a fatal wound that he will survive. In addition he will have his right hand man the false prophet performing miracles, signs and wonders for the purpose of giving credibility to the antichrist/beast to his claim of being God.

You're looking at things from a human perspective, yet there will be satanic supernatural powers at work during that time, as well as the fact that it is the written word of God and therefore must take place.

The glory of God does not have to be present in the temple in order for God to fulfill that last seven years with Israel. There just has to be a temple. Regarding this, referring to the temple, Jesus told them that their house had been left desolate unto them.

So, whatever you or anyone believes

The church is going to be gathered

That last seven years is going to be established by the antichrist

Israel is going to build her temple and begin sacrifices and offerings

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place throughout the entire seven years

In the middle of the seven years the anitchirst/beast is going to set up that abomination and proclaim himself to be God

Jesus is going to return to the earth 3 1/2 years later

The beast and the false prophet are going to be thrown alive into the lake of fire

Satan is going to be thrown into and restricted in the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign

At the end of the thousand years Satan will be let out for one last rebellion

Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire

The great white throne judgment for all of the unrighteous dead will take place

New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem

Eternity .......................................................................>

That's a summarization of the overall plan
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Nothing wrong with it lol. Then why are you trying to put this in AD 70?

Matthew 27:52-53 KJV
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I'm not placing this passage in 70 AD. I place it in 30 AD where it belongs. I'm just not sold on this being an actual resurrection into spiritual bodies. I think it was more of a resuscitation than a resurrection.

There is no mention of these being seen with Jesus at any time. There is no mention of them going to heaven. There is no mention of this happening anywhere else in Judea or Israel or Babylon or anywhere else.

No doubt, it's a cool event but it doesn't seem to tie with Dan 12. Also, it appears just saints arose and no unbelievers. Perhaps they were firstfruits with Christ although the passage in 1 Cor 15 doesn't mention anyone else being firstfruits except Christ, then the rest at His coming. Certainly not at His resurrection but His Second Coming.

This is why I am looking for any historical evidence including other Christian writings. So far, nothing. This whole topic is a big puzzle.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Got to keep on trying man. One of these regatherings will get it.
We have to skip over the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and that because there has been no fulfillment of that last seven year, of course unless you force it by spiritualizing and distorting scripture. All of these events are reserved to take place in conjunction with the end of the age. Not the made up Jewish end of the age, but the end of the age of all mankind with the dismantling of all human government and the establishment of Christ's millennial kingdom.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
We have to skip over the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and that because there has been no fulfillment of that last seven year, of course unless you force it by spiritualizing and distorting scripture. All of these events are reserved to take place in conjunction with the end of the age. Not the made Jewish end of the age, but the end of the age of all mankind with the dismantling of all human government and the establishment of Christ's millennial kingdom.
Correction AW that's the ONE WEEK (the PASSION WEEK) that Jesus Christ confirmed the Abrahamic covenant and ended the need for SACRIFICE.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
How about the Abomination of Desolation? And how Jesus predicted the events of AD 70?
And while Josephus is not Scripture, surely you read other literature than the Bible such as the news?
What would DEFILE the Coming Third Temple more than anything?

What evil act associated with the Antichrist is more Evil than anything?


Daniel 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”


Could this be the Abomination of Desolation?



Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
We all know that Jesus confirmed the Abrahamic covenant, we all know he ended the sacrifices, we all know that Jesus left Jerusalem desolate when he came. Why in the world would you guys pervert the ULTIMATE sacrifice for the world and CHANGE into a 7 year peace treaty with the Jews? I'm blown away, why would you do this?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
You will... :)

I don't understand how anyone could be a Preterist.

Carry on.
Sorry Shurme, I was using your post to direct this at PlainWord and the other preterists.

I completely agree! The promises that Jesus made to the church, was to the entire church, not just the first century. Therefore the promise to go to the Father's house and prepare places for us and that he was going to come again and take us back to the Father's house, is a promise to the entire church.

When the Lord appears, all of those who belong to the church who will have died from the beginning of the church until the resurrection takes place, will all be resurrected. Those who are in Christ and are still alive when the resurrection takes place will simply be changed and caught up with them to the meet the Lord in the air. Everyone that will be caught will include the church in its entirety.

The preterists version has Jesus already returned and only involving 37 years of people who became believers, which leaves all of the successive centuries and generations of believers up to this very day, out of Christ's promise. They don't understand the plan. They have to force fulfillment of everything, including the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, not understanding the severity of them.
 
May 11, 2014
936
39
0
We have to skip over the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and that because there has been no fulfillment of that last seven year, of course unless you force it by spiritualizing and distorting scripture. All of these events are reserved to take place in conjunction with the end of the age. Not the made up Jewish end of the age, but the end of the age of all mankind with the dismantling of all human government and the establishment of Christ's millennial kingdom.
How was the abomination of desolation not then? This I want to hear! No spiritualizing needed. Where does it say it takes place in conjuction with the end of the world?

So many questions. No evidence of 70 weeks of Daniel spread to three parts anywhere, you just spiritualized it in there(Truth is everyone does this no matter what position they hold, it is ok).

This is the core of the issue right here: IF anyone can prove that AD70 was not the abomination of desolation, they have won the debate I would say.

*Insert Josephus quotes here* Unfortunately I can not since he is boring and dull to read.


Not just that but if you ask me the abomination of desolation already occured before that as well, before Jesus was even born in fact, you can read about it in Maccabees, that is why I am still open to evidence of a tripledoublequadra fulfillment here.
Did you know that Jews consider 70 weeks fulfilled?
 
May 11, 2014
936
39
0
What would DEFILE the Coming Third Temple more than anything?

What evil act associated with the Antichrist is more Evil than anything?


Daniel 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”


Could this be the Abomination of Desolation?



Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. ⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
Are you suggesting the abomination would be someone beheaded in the temple?
To be honest, the fact that there even IS a temple is an abomination to the sacrifice of Christ in itself, no beheadings needed. Going back to the Old Covenant animal sacrifices is certainly abominable. Jesus died once and for all.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Psalm: 88. 6. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. 7. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah. 8. Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth. 9. Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee. 10. Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. - Bible Offline

If you can recieve it, this is the abomination that maketh desolation.