The Rapture

[VCO]

You know this obsession that Christians have with a rebuilt temple is not shared by Jews. Did you know that majority of today's judaism practicers do not want a temple? Especially the reformed jews (who are the largest denomination) say that:

"Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism do not believe in the rebuilding of a central Temple or a restoration of Temple sacrifices or worship. They regard the Temple and sacrificial era as a period of a more primitive form of ritual from which Judaism has evolved and should not return. They also believe a special role for Kohanim and Levites represents a caste system incompatible with modern principles of egalitarianism, and do not preserve these roles. Furthermore, there is a Reform view that the shul or synagogue is a modern Temple"

The conservative judaism practicers viewpoint:

"Conservative Judaism believes in a Messiah and in a rebuilt Temple, but does not believe in the restoration of sacrifices. Accordingly, Conservative Judaism's Committee on Jewish Law and Standards has modified the prayers. Conservative prayerbooks call for the restoration of Temple, but do not ask for resumption of sacrifices. The Orthodox study session on sacrifices in the daily morning service has been replaced with the Talmudic passages teaching that deeds of loving-kindness now atone for sin."

The concensus:

"Rabbinical consensus in the Religious Zionist stream of Orthodox Judaism continues to hold that it is forbidden for Jews to enter any part of the Temple Mount"

The truth is that only a small minority of them care one bit about the temple. It seems to me that dispensational christians and christadelphians are more interested in the temple than the Jews themselves.
This is the small minority point of view, and even that is not 100%:

"Although in mainstream Orthodox Judaism the rebuilding of the Temple is generally left to the coming of the Jewish Messiah and to Divine Providence, a number of organizations, generally representing a small minority of Orthodox Jews, have been formed with the objective of realizing the immediate construction of a Third Temple in present times."

There have been many attempts by the Jews throughout history to rebuild the temple and everytime it has been destroyed by a fire or an earthquake or something. Hmm. Maybe God does not want the temple built?

All these quotes are from wikipedia with sources listed at the bottom of the page and all this to say: STOP the temple hysteria... Because you know they can not build it in the original place because the mosque is there now you got to invent a new secret location that was found where it truly was just to fulfill the temple fantasies, it just has to be built somewhere for some reason. Join the rest of us in the New Covenant.

Wow, are you ever MISINFORMED, They are Training the Priests NOW, and Every Artifact for the TEMPLE have been rebuilt, except for the Arch of the Covenant, but their are Rumors they already KNOW where the real one is.

[video=youtube;F6prYdPPPaQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6prYdPPPaQ[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCsEMjpZZoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byAoFbA6cr8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EICu2C02sKk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hng2mVVjJs

 

[KJV1611]

No one knows the Day or the Hour, but it is not an earth day, but Seven Year Period of time.

No, we don't know the day nor hour but what we do know is that it happened BEFORE the disciples finished their ministry to Israel.

Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

[Bladerunner]

Where in the world did you ever get the idea that Salvation was dependent upon believing in the new "Rapture" theory?

Hi WIllie-T.... First there is no new Rapture Theory. For those who truly believe in Jesus Christ will be Raptured according to scripture of the Holy Bible KJV.

Do you really think Preterist will get to heaven?

 

[VCO]

No, we don't know the day nor hour but what we do know is that it happened BEFORE the disciples finished their ministry to Israel.

Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

THAT ISN'T EVEN EXTREMELY REMOTE TO BEING CLOSE TO HOW BAD THE GREAT TRIBULATION WILL BE. A Third of the World's Population will die in and a War, and Half of those remaining will die from Sickness and Disease. A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF BEHEADINGS AT THE ORDERS OF ANTICHRIST. MASSIVE EARTHQUAKES KILL MANY THOUSANDS, 7000 IN JERUSALEM IN ONE DAY, DROUGHT KILLS EVEN MORE, AND HUGE METEORITES WILL KILL EVEN MORE, AND THE PLAGUES FROM GOD, ONE EVEN CAUSES THE FLESH TO ROT OFF THE BONES OF THOSE ATTACKING JERUSALEM, ETC., ETC., ETC.

EVEN THIS EVENT WILL LITERALLY HAPPEN DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHEN THE FLESH ROTS OFF THE BONES:


Revelation 14:20 (CSBBible)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses' bridles for about 180 miles.

 

[KJV1611]

THAT ISN'T EVEN EXTREMELY REMOTE TO BEING CLOSE TO HOW BAD THE GREAT TRIBULATION WILL BE. A Third of the World's Population will die in and a War, and Half of those remaining will die from Sickness and Disease. A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF BEHEADINGS AT THE ORDERS OF ANTICHRIST. MASSIVE EARTHQUAKES KILL MANY THOUSANDS, 7000 IN JERUSALEM IN ONE DAY, DROUGHT KILLS EVEN MORE, AND HUGE METEORITES WILL KILL EVEN MORE, AND THE PLAGUES FROM GOD, ONE EVEN CAUSES THE FLESH TO ROT OFF THE BONES OF THOSE ATTACKING JERUSALEM, ETC., ETC., ETC.

EVEN THIS EVENT WILL LITERALLY HAPPEN DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHEN THE FLESH ROTS OFF THE BONES:


Revelation 14:20 (CSBBible)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses' bridles for about 180 miles.

So you don't think "till the son of man be come" is talking about the 1st second coming?

Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

[MattforJesus]

The great tribulation will be terrible and Jesus said if He did not shorten the days there would be no flesh alive which is three and one half years.

God will give the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business on earth.

But the tribulation is only for the last three and one half years of the 7 years period.

The first three and one half years repentance,and salvation is still available to the world,and there will be a unified religious system,and the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,and the first three and one half years are not part of the great tribulation,and that is when the 6th trumpet sounds,the religion of Islam and the world clash,and nuclear weapons devastate the Arab nations,and the man of sin plucks up 3 horns by the roots,and a third of the population of the world dies.

That war is so terrible they turn to the man of sin for the solution to have peace on earth,and the world follow the beast kingdom,and then the great tribulation against the saints for three and one half years,and at the end of that time the saints that remain are gathered unto Christ.

Then the great tribulation is over,for the great tribulation is for the saints,not the world,and then the wrath of God poured on the people that followed the beast kingdom,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,where the plague God gives them is their flesh shall melt off their bones,which the wrath of God is not tribulation,but punishment for following the beast kingdom.

The great tribulation is for only three and one half years,and it is only for the saints.

 

[Bladerunner]

Bladerunner,

It is not from listening to Plainword or KJV1611 that lead me away from dispensationalism. I'm was a preteristic-amillennialist ever since I joined CC in 2012, which was before these guys joined. I have written many post, debated many people using the bible to defend my postition to no avail that I'm aware of. It is clear to me, by interpreting the bible with the bible, by interpreting the unclear passages with the clear passages, that those in Christ in the Church are now ruling with Him in this millennium (time frame). There will be a day when the Lord comes back to raise all the dead, some to eternal damnation and some to eternal life (John 5:29). The dead will raise first, then those alive will be caught up with the Lord in the air while the earth burns with fire (2 Peter 3:7) and is remade/restored. Then God's people will continue down to earth in the eternal state and forever live in eternal bliss. Jesus will hand over this kingdom to the God the Father so that God can be our all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

Having said this, I still reserve the right to be wrong. However, I still believe that the system of eschatology that I hold has more biblical truth and less error.

Sounds like you are in more need of prayer if you think eschatology is what saves a person from their sins. Maybe this is why so many dispensationalist fight so hard for their system of eschatology.

I think knowing you're in Christ's kingdom now, as opposed to waiting for Christ's Kingdom to come, changes your perspective on how we live our lives for Christ. And IMHO, this the most important reason why it matters. The second reason would be going back to animal sacrifices (even if you think it's just a memorial, why would you need a memorial when you could see the holes in Christ's hands and feet?) which would be an insult/abomination to the Trinity and would trample on the blood of Christ.

Perhaps you, or someone on the fence, would read Kenneth Gentry's "Ephesians Road Out of Dispensationalism" (Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6)".

Bookends,,,It is sad that your eschatology ignores the many explicit promises and commitments made by God throughout the OT and NT...There are 1845 references in the OT and 318 in the NT referring to the literal Jesus Christ ruling the world through Israel from David's throne in Jerusalem.

It is sad that Origen, his allegorizing influences and his Hellenic thinking along with the Bishop of Hippo's (Augustine) writings brought on the amillennial eschatology. By allegorizing scriptures of the Bible (Augustine), the very denial of a Millennium you speak of still pervades the churches today.

There is no need to go any further with this discussion as it is easy to see that you are as hardcore on your eschatology as I am mine. However, I will leave you with Jeremiah 31:35-37

Have a Good Day Sir:

Blade

 

[KJV1611]

The great tribulation will be terrible and Jesus said if He did not shorten the days there would be no flesh alive which is three and one half years.

God will give the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,so He can end this sin business on earth.

But the tribulation is only for the last three and one half years of the 7 years period.

The first three and one half years repentance,and salvation is still available to the world,and there will be a unified religious system,and the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,and the first three and one half years are not part of the great tribulation,and that is when the 6th trumpet sounds,the religion of Islam and the world clash,and nuclear weapons devastate the Arab nations,and the man of sin plucks up 3 horns by the roots,and a third of the population of the world dies.

That war is so terrible they turn to the man of sin for the solution to have peace on earth,and the world follow the beast kingdom,and then the great tribulation against the saints for three and one half years,and at the end of that time the saints that remain are gathered unto Christ.

Then the great tribulation is over,for the great tribulation is for the saints,not the world,and then the wrath of God poured on the people that followed the beast kingdom,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,where the plague God gives them is their flesh shall melt off their bones,which the wrath of God is not tribulation,but punishment for following the beast kingdom.

The great tribulation is for only three and one half years,and it is only for the saints.

Where does the bible say the great tribulation is for 3 1/2 years? Just one verse will be enough.

 

[RickyZ]

You're giving a lot of out of context verses that have nothing to with the second coming of Christ.... I don't understand why people do this, don't you want to know the truth instead of twisting the truth to fit your doctrine?

See, the thing is, we say the same thing about you

 

[J7]

THAT ISN'T EVEN EXTREMELY REMOTE TO BEING CLOSE TO HOW BAD THE GREAT TRIBULATION WILL BE. A Third of the World's Population will die in and a War, and Half of those remaining will die from Sickness and Disease. A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF BEHEADINGS AT THE ORDERS OF ANTICHRIST. MASSIVE EARTHQUAKES KILL MANY THOUSANDS, 7000 IN JERUSALEM IN ONE DAY, DROUGHT KILLS EVEN MORE, AND HUGE METEORITES WILL KILL EVEN MORE, AND THE PLAGUES FROM GOD, ONE EVEN CAUSES THE FLESH TO ROT OFF THE BONES OF THOSE ATTACKING JERUSALEM, ETC., ETC., ETC.

EVEN THIS EVENT WILL LITERALLY HAPPEN DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION WHEN THE FLESH ROTS OFF THE BONES:


Revelation 14:20 (CSBBible)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses' bridles for about 180 miles.

So What?

I've told you, you are arguing with Jesus. Why put yourself under the spotlight?

If 20 zillion people die in a hydrogen bomb flash, or one person dies skinned by the Aztecs, which do you thing equates to greater suffering?

Many of the Jews tried to escape from Jerusalem and were crucified outside the walls. Some of the Roman soldiers got physically ill.

Crucifixion - ever tried it? No but I know a man who did.

 

[tanakh]

Mark 10:31 (NRSV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."


I believe that is a comparison of TRUE BELIEVERS who are those from the FIRST COVENANT, and those who are from the LAST COVENANT. Which places the 70th Week of Daniel FIRMLY AFTER the LAST COVENANT is FINISHED.


Zechariah 14:16-21 (NRSV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then on them shall come the plague that the LORD inflicts on the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to keep the festival of booths.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] On that day there shall be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "Holy to the LORD." And the cooking pots in the house of the LORD shall be as holy as the bowls in front of the altar;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] and every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and use them to boil the flesh of the sacrifice. And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.

I got news for you, in the 1000 Year Earthly Kingdom, JESUS gets to DECLARE anything HOLY that CHOOSES TO DECLARE HOLY.

To start with the rebuilt Temple that everyone talks about is not a Millennial one its one that is expected to be built with the'blessing' of the Antichrist If you think God would declare that holy you must have a very strange method of interpretation

The Millennial Temple is described in great detail in Ezekiel. Based on the measurements given there its been estimated that the Temple area will cover the whole of present day Jerusalem and then some. So any temple built in the tribulation cannot be the millennial one. Whatever sacrifices carried out in it cant be for sin because Christ is the one and only sacrifice.

In Revelation it says the New Jerusalem has no temple because God and the Lamb is the Temple. So its clear that the Sacrificial system ends after the Millennium is over.

 

[Bogadile]

Hi WIllie-T.... First there is no new Rapture Theory. For those who truly believe in Jesus Christ will be Raptured according to scripture of the Holy Bible KJV.

Do you really think Preterist will get to heaven?

Amazing. You just discredited majority of Christianity of their salvation because of a differing belief regarding end times. You have absolutely no idea how new and foreign this pre-trib rapture thing is do you? Step out of the bubble.

 

[Bogadile]

VCO did you even read my post before you replied? I posted not my own opinion, but what the Jews in the world think, they could not care less about the temple a good majority of them. The only people who do care are the wingnuts in the youtube videos you have posted, the minority of the minority orthodox Jews.
This would be like me equating all of Christianity to Westboro baptist church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Amazing. You just discredited majority of Christianity of their salvation because of a differing belief regarding end times. You have absolutely no idea how new and foreign this pre-trib rapture thing is do you? Step out of the bubble.

Hello Bogadile,

Regarding this, I would remind you that, anyone who believes and teaches that the resurrection has already taken place is referred to as being wandered from the truth. Likewise, anyone who is trusting in their the works of the Law have wandered from grace and have been alienated from Christ. Therefore, what do you think about someone who is not trusting in the promise of the Lord to gather His church and rescue us from God's coming wrath?

They are believing and teaching others and new believers that Jesus has already returned and that all end-time events have already taken place, including the wrath of God. They are basically distorting and diluting the word of God. What is frustrating is that they don't even know that they are false teachers.

By this, I believe that they are guilty of Rev.22:18

As proof of this, look who gave you a "Like" for your post. It is one of those who have been teaching those false teachings.

 

[J7]

Lie Ahwatukee.

Retract please.

 

[Bogadile]

Ahwatukee I do not teach that the Second Coming has already happened, I also do not believe the resurrection has occured yet, other than a Spiritual passing from death to life mentioned in Paul's epistles obviously.
The bodily resurrection of the righteous and the wicked is still future.

In fact I do not consider myself to be teaching anything at all, I am just partaking in a discussion, trying to learn and share what I think, I am not a pastor or a teacher nor do I claim my words are infallible, I might change my mind tomorrow on everything I am not locked in on end times it is an interesting study.

 

[KJV1611]

Hello Bogadile,

Regarding this, I would remind you that, anyone who believes and teaches that the resurrection has already taken place is referred to as being wandered from the truth. Likewise, anyone who is trusting in their the works of the Law have wandered from grace and have been alienated from Christ. Therefore, what do you think about someone who is not trusting in the promise of the Lord to gather His church and rescue us from God's coming wrath?

They are believing and teaching others and new believers that Jesus has already returned and that all end-time events have already taken place, including the wrath of God. They are basically distorting and diluting the word of God. What is frustrating is that they don't even know that they are false teachers.

By this, I believe that they are guilty of Rev.22:18

As proof of this, look who gave you a "Like" for your post. It is one of those who have been teaching those false teachings.

WOW! You're a prophecy TEACHER and you don''t even understand the resurrection. You truly are a modern day Hymenaeus and Philetus to a T.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee I do not teach that the Second Coming has already happened, I also do not believe the resurrection has occured yet, other than a Spiritual passing from death to life mentioned in Paul's epistles obviously.
The bodily resurrection of the righteous and the wicked is still future.

In fact I do not consider myself to be teaching anything at all, I am just partaking in a discussion, trying to learn and share what I think, I am not a pastor or a teacher nor do I claim my words are infallible, I might change my mind tomorrow on everything I am not locked in on end times it is an interesting study.

My apologies if it seemed as though I was referring to you directly. I didn't say that you did, but was responding in general regarding those who do.

 

[Bogadile]

My apologies if it seemed as though I was referring to you directly. I didn't say that you did, but was responding in general regarding those who do.

No problem. Since I know your position I would like to ask if you can prove the sharp distinction between Israel and the Church from the Bible. Does not the Scriptures teach we are fellowcitizens of Israel?
Not to mention, how can you get cut off from a race if Jews are a race of people, since in the Old Testament people were cut off from the people for many things, including failing to observe the Sabbath, among other things.

 

[KJV1611]

Hymenaeus and Philetus believe as Ahwatukee believes - the are only 2 resurrection EVENTS, one at the begining of the milennium and one at the end of the millennium.

Here's the truth. There are only 2 TYPES of resurrection, 1) the resurrection of life 2) the resurrection of the damnation.

The old testament saints were resurrected with Christ, this is the resurrection of life or 1st resurrection. The wicked old testament people were also raised with Christ, this is the resurrection of the damnation or 2nd resurrection.

Hymenaeus and Philetus and Ahwatukee err in teaching that the resurrection of life or 1st resurrection is a ONE TIME event.