The Rapture
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You're giving a lot of out of context verses that have nothing to with the second coming of Christ.... I don't understand why people do this, don't you want to know the truth instead of twisting the truth to fit your doctrine?
There is direct or indirect mention of the second coming of Christ in the verses you posted. The bible give us 3 distinct and seperate comings of Christ and none of them are AD 70. Again, you are doing the same thing you accuse (rightly accusing) others of doing. Are you not able to see this in yourself friend?
There is direct or indirect mention of the second coming of Christ in the verses you posted. The bible give us 3 distinct and seperate comings of Christ and none of them are AD 70. Again, you are doing the same thing you accuse (rightly accusing) others of doing. Are you not able to see this in yourself friend?
I re-read Mat 10 and I jumped the gun lumping that passage in with the others. This dealt with Christ sending them out into just Israel while He went alone into other cities to continue His preaching. His return here was them just getting back together again. They reunited before they finished preaching in all the cities of Israel.
2064 eltho; to come or go, used in a variety of applications. accompany, appear, bring, come, enter.
This is not the same word as Parousia which was used in Mat 24.
2064 eltho; to come or go, used in a variety of applications. accompany, appear, bring, come, enter.
This is not the same word as Parousia which was used in Mat 24.
Your attempt to find past fulfillment in the great tribulation demonstrates that you pay no attention to details of scripture:
"For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
Attempting to interpret this as a past event is just ridiculous, as it is God's wrath that will be carried out in conjunction with Christ's return to the earth to end the age! This time period will be unequaled in severity. Nothing since the beginning of the world, until the time Jesus spoke it, to the time I'm writing this, until the end, will compare. After that great tribulation, the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, then the Lord will return to the earth to end the age. And not this counterfeit end of the age that only Involves Israel that you teach and will be held accountable for, but the end of all human government and the establishment of Christ's literal kingdom on this earth.
It is not a time period of tribulation that is meant to take place and then everything goes back to normal. The entire earth will be feeling the affects of this time of wrath, not just Israel. There is no way in the world you can restrict the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to just affecting Israel.
The event above does not even come close to equaling the results of the flood nor the captivity to Babylon. And there are probably several other events that were more distressful than the destruction of the temple.
All that you attempting to apply as that time of great tribulation, does not fit the criteria.
The great tribulation is yet to come and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and it will involve the entire planet, dismantling all human governments (Dan.2) and decimating the majority of the earths population.
In regards to your continual distortion of end-time events and the book of Revelation, keep in mind the warning of Rev.22:18-19
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
"For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."
Attempting to interpret this as a past event is just ridiculous, as it is God's wrath that will be carried out in conjunction with Christ's return to the earth to end the age! This time period will be unequaled in severity. Nothing since the beginning of the world, until the time Jesus spoke it, to the time I'm writing this, until the end, will compare. After that great tribulation, the day of the Lord, that hour of trial, then the Lord will return to the earth to end the age. And not this counterfeit end of the age that only Involves Israel that you teach and will be held accountable for, but the end of all human government and the establishment of Christ's literal kingdom on this earth.
It is not a time period of tribulation that is meant to take place and then everything goes back to normal. The entire earth will be feeling the affects of this time of wrath, not just Israel. There is no way in the world you can restrict the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to just affecting Israel.
The event above does not even come close to equaling the results of the flood nor the captivity to Babylon. And there are probably several other events that were more distressful than the destruction of the temple.
All that you attempting to apply as that time of great tribulation, does not fit the criteria.
The great tribulation is yet to come and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and it will involve the entire planet, dismantling all human governments (Dan.2) and decimating the majority of the earths population.
In regards to your continual distortion of end-time events and the book of Revelation, keep in mind the warning of Rev.22:18-19
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Ok so this is not the second coming in your view?
Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Does the 2nd coming in AD 70 affect your your reason for believing this verse is not the 2nd coming?
Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Does the 2nd coming in AD 70 affect your your reason for believing this verse is not the 2nd coming?
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I was trying to show you that Christ returned to execute judgment wrath against Jerusalem (His enemies) by showing you those "footstool" passages. Do you have any doubt that the destruction of Jerusalem was a divine act, although the Romans were used as the instrument? Christ returned as a VERY BRIGHT LIGHT, that everyone saw, which incidentally is the way God usually appeared in the OT.
Do you acknowledge that Jerusalem was Babylon, the Great Harlot? If so, then consider this:
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!...And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
How was Jerusalem destroyed? By fire perhaps???
What "angel" can illuminate the earth with His glory? FYI, the "earth" is Israel in this context. We actually have an historical record of this happening.
Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
Can you explain the bright light from the temple which lit up the night turning it into bright daytime without the presence of God (or Christ)? I'm pretty sure they didn't have stadium floodlights in those days. The light was so bright I need my shades
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Do you acknowledge that Jerusalem was Babylon, the Great Harlot? If so, then consider this:
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!...And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
How was Jerusalem destroyed? By fire perhaps???
What "angel" can illuminate the earth with His glory? FYI, the "earth" is Israel in this context. We actually have an historical record of this happening.
Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
Can you explain the bright light from the temple which lit up the night turning it into bright daytime without the presence of God (or Christ)? I'm pretty sure they didn't have stadium floodlights in those days. The light was so bright I need my shades
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I don't know where you got your history from but the Romans took over the ruins of Jerusalem and built another City on top of them they called Aelia Capitolina. They also built a Temple on the Temple Mount dedicated to Jupiter. Between 132 and 136 another revolt against Rome took place led by Simon Bar Kokhba believed by many Jews to be the Messiah. The revolt was crushed and all Jews including Christian ones were barred from entering the City. It is believed that it was during this revolt that the split between Christianity and Judaism became final because Christians refused to accept Bar kokhba as the Messiah.
Okay, this would also be an acceptable way of reading this passage. But if you move the two witnesses to the time of the Cross then they died at the same time as Christ. Who died at the same time, the 2 thieves? I don't like it. Also, the two witnesses were not buried, remember? They were not allowed to be buried so how did they get into graves?
I was trying to show you that Christ returned to execute judgment wrath against Jerusalem (His enemies) by showing you those "footstool" passages. Do you have any doubt that the destruction of Jerusalem was a divine act, although the Romans were used as the instrument? Christ returned as a VERY BRIGHT LIGHT, that everyone saw, which incidentally is the way God usually appeared in the OT.
Do you acknowledge that Jerusalem was Babylon, the Great Harlot? If so, then consider this:
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!...And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
How was Jerusalem destroyed? By fire perhaps???
What "angel" can illuminate the earth with His glory? FYI, the "earth" is Israel in this context. We actually have an historical record of this happening.
Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
Can you explain the bright light from the temple which lit up the night turning it into bright daytime without the presence of God (or Christ)? I'm pretty sure they didn't have stadium floodlights in those days. The light was so bright I need my shades.
Do you acknowledge that Jerusalem was Babylon, the Great Harlot? If so, then consider this:
18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!...And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
How was Jerusalem destroyed? By fire perhaps???
What "angel" can illuminate the earth with His glory? FYI, the "earth" is Israel in this context. We actually have an historical record of this happening.
Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
Can you explain the bright light from the temple which lit up the night turning it into bright daytime without the presence of God (or Christ)? I'm pretty sure they didn't have stadium floodlights in those days. The light was so bright I need my shades
.Amos 5:20 KJV
Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
I would assume whoever you quoted from is lying or else God lied when he said there is NO LIGHT in the day of the Lord. Do you think AD 70 was the day of the Lord?
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And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on."
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The time of the two witnesses is yet a future event, which will also take place at the same during that last seven years, specifically during the first 1260 days, which is that first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.
"Where also there Lord was crucified" is what is past tense, i.e. Christ's crucifixion is past tense not the time period of the two witnesses and their plagues. The scripture is saying that they will lie in the streets of Jerusalem, the same place where their Lord was crucified. As and example of this, I could say that I'm going to visit Jerusalem, the place where my Lord was crucified. My visit would be in the present tense referring to where the Lord was crucified in the past tense.
We also have zero fulfillment in regards to these two witnesses and their plagues that they bring upon the earth, nor of the event of them being dead and then resurrecting 3 1/2 days later. Not one jot or tittle written about it as taking place during the time of the destruction of the temple. Not to mention that, the beast has not yet come up out of the Abyss in order to kill them.
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on."
===========================================
The time of the two witnesses is yet a future event, which will also take place at the same during that last seven years, specifically during the first 1260 days, which is that first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.
"Where also there Lord was crucified" is what is past tense, i.e. Christ's crucifixion is past tense not the time period of the two witnesses and their plagues. The scripture is saying that they will lie in the streets of Jerusalem, the same place where their Lord was crucified. As and example of this, I could say that I'm going to visit Jerusalem, the place where my Lord was crucified. My visit would be in the present tense referring to where the Lord was crucified in the past tense.
We also have zero fulfillment in regards to these two witnesses and their plagues that they bring upon the earth, nor of the event of them being dead and then resurrecting 3 1/2 days later. Not one jot or tittle written about it as taking place during the time of the destruction of the temple. Not to mention that, the beast has not yet come up out of the Abyss in order to kill them.
They didn't DIE when Christ died, their ALREADY DEAD (some for thousands of years) bodies lie in the streets.
How did they get out of the graves?
Jeremiah 8:1 KJV
At that time, saith the Lord , they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
How did they get out of the graves?
Jeremiah 8:1 KJV
At that time, saith the Lord , they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:
The key words here being that you have "shown me to be wrong," which you haven't. Show me one place where you have proven me to be wrong. I speak the truth from scripture. I don't repeat the teachings of men, nor hold to these weak attempts to find fulfillment in prophecy.
Everything that you, PW and KJV proclaim are attempts at forced fulfillment of prophecy. The only reason that you say that I should not be in the discussion is because I'm the one proclaiming the truth. Whenever I give you an answer you ignore the scriptures provided and the reasoning for it. Come on, let's try it and we'll see who washes over the truth.
Everything that you, PW and KJV proclaim are attempts at forced fulfillment of prophecy. The only reason that you say that I should not be in the discussion is because I'm the one proclaiming the truth. Whenever I give you an answer you ignore the scriptures provided and the reasoning for it. Come on, let's try it and we'll see who washes over the truth.
That's why I say preconcieved ideas are the blinders of truth. We have the read the bible for exactly what it says and if that flies in the face of our doctrine, then we toss out the doctrine.
PW can't see anything but Josephus and AD 70 as the return of Christ.... he's blinded to simple truth's because of that bias... but he's not the only one.
PW can't see anything but Josephus and AD 70 as the return of Christ.... he's blinded to simple truth's because of that bias... but he's not the only one.
There was no second coming of Christ in AD 70 period... you're making that up! Show me scripture where it says the Lord returned in AD70... concrete stuff like this:
1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Christ died, left the earth for hell, then he RETURNED.
1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Christ died, left the earth for hell, then he RETURNED.
Jesus Himself told us what to do with your theories about an early spiritual return:
Matthew 24:23-27 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Yes, we believe you are teaching a FALSE CHRIST, and that You have fallen for the Teachings of a FALSE PROPHET.
Acts 1:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.”
HE WAS TAKEN UP IN A GLORIFIED PHYSICAL BODY, AND HE WILL RETURN IN THE SAME GLORIFIED PHYSICAL BODY.