The Rapture

[KJV1611]

One thing I've realized in this discussion is that Jesus ABSOLUTELY returns to the earth twice.

He came the first time in the flesh. He then left and went to hell.
Then he returned to earth the first time when he ASCENDED from hell at the resurrection.
Then he will return again for the second time when he DESCENDS from heaven with a shout.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't know man... you speak a foreign language lol. What is parousia?

Parousia = Presence

 

[Locutus]

Yus all missed it by nineteen hundred and forty seven years...

 

[KJV1611]

Parousia = Presence

View attachment 171825

Well then, there are 2 parousias. I believe the 1st parousia happened when Jesus returned from hell, but I believe there is another paraousia at the end... unless you can show me otherwise.

I'm wide open to accept whatever it is 1 coming or 2 comings, but I don't see Jesus ascending out of hell as "descending out of heaven". I think this must be future.

 

[PlainWord]

One thing I've realized in this discussion is that Jesus ABSOLUTELY returns to the earth twice.

He came the first time in the flesh. He then left and went to hell.
Then he returned to earth the first time when he ASCENDED from hell at the resurrection.
Then he will return again for the second time when he DESCENDS from heaven with a shout.

His first return (after going down to Sheol/Hades) was not the return you cited above from Mat 10. Step back a verse to get the context where they are enduring to the end (of Jerusalem, not just enduring 3 days). They didn't have time to go from city to city in 3 days:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. [SUP]23 [/SUP]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

There are at least three other passages in Mat where His Second Coming is mentioned.

Mat 16:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. [SUP]28 [/SUP]“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Mat 24:

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:

[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”


I submit to you brother, all of these are the same and He returned in 70 AD to execute justice in His wrath against Jerusalem and to reward His faithful elect. Look how Luke puts it:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

They were to look up, those watching the destruction of Jerusalem because they were to be redeemed. I know. It took me my whole life to see that Christ already came back. It was not an easy thing to come to grips with but it all makes sense now. They had the "blessed hope" they asked for (and received) revenge.

 

[PlainWord]

Well then, there are 2 parousias. I believe the 1st parousia happened when Jesus returned from hell, but I believe there is another paraousia at the end... unless you can show me otherwise.

I'm wide open to accept whatever it is 1 coming or 2 comings, but I don't see Jesus ascending out of hell as "descending out of heaven". I think this must be future.

Jesus went to Hades during those 3 days to preach to the souls there. Those who believed in Him would partake in the "resurrection of the just" when He came back in 40 years. You see, there was no path to heaven until after the Cross. All souls had to go to Sheol (OT), Hades (NT), same word in Hebrew and Greek, until Christ (who had the keys to "Death and Hades" freed them.

Look at Rev 1:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

This is clearly after the ascension and John sees Christ glorified now in heaven. He hasn't freed them yet!! So clearly the OT souls did not resurrect with Christ nor did they ascend with Him. But, by the time we get to Rev 7, they have because John now sees them in heaven and they are no longer called souls. Instead they have bodies and are wearing white robes.

Death and Hades are still present at the 4th seal and souls are crying out for vengeance at the 5th seal. Now these souls are "under the alter" in Hades, in the spiritual realm they would be beneath the throne in heaven. Christ returns (His parousia presence) to punish Jerusalem at the 6th seal. This is where the resurrection takes place as affirmed in Dan 12.

 

[KJV1611]

His first return (after going down to Sheol/Hades) was not the return you cited above from Mat 10. Step back a verse to get the context where they are enduring to the end (of Jerusalem, not just enduring 3 days). They didn't have time to go from city to city in 3 days:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. [SUP]23 [/SUP]When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

What does "he who endures to the end" have to do with the second coming of Christ... those who endure to the end will be saved.

The second coming happens BEFORE the disciples finish preaching the gospel to all the cities of Israel. The time frame you're putting the second coming at is WELL AFTER the disciples preached the gospel to all of Israel. In fact, at that time the gospel had already gone to the Gentiles. Agree or no?

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus went to Hades during those 3 days to preach to the souls there. Those who believed in Him would partake in the "resurrection of the just" when He came back in 40 years. You see, there was no path to heaven until after the Cross. All souls had to go to Sheol (OT), Hades (NT), same word in Hebrew and Greek, until Christ (who had the keys to "Death and Hades" freed them.

Look at Rev 1:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

This is clearly after the ascension and John sees Christ glorified now in heaven. He hasn't freed them yet!! So clearly the OT souls did not resurrect with Christ nor did they ascend with Him. But, by the time we get to Rev 7, they have because John now sees them in heaven and they are no longer called souls. Instead they have bodies and are wearing white robes.

Death and Hades are still present at the 4th seal and souls are crying out for vengeance at the 5th seal. Now these souls are "under the alter" in Hades, in the spiritual realm they would be beneath the throne in heaven. Christ returns (His parousia presence) to punish Jerusalem at the 6th seal. This is where the resurrection takes place as affirmed in Dan 12.

The old testament saints rose with Christ at his resurrection. Those saints left with Jesus when he ascended. We know they did because it's in the bible.

 

[KJV1611]

@ PW

Where does the bible say Jesus returned 40 years after the resurrection?

 

[PlainWord]

The old testament saints rose with Christ at his resurrection. Those saints left with Jesus when he ascended. We know they did because it's in the bible.

Are you referencing this?

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, [SUP]52 [/SUP]and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; [SUP]53 [/SUP]and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I see no mention of them being in glorified bodies nor any mention of them ascending into Heaven with Christ. In fact, I find no other mention of these people being with Christ either here or later during the 40 days prior to His ascension. Further, and apparently, only those who were in the vicinity of Jerusalem were raised up. Notice also that it says "many of the bodies" and not "all of the bodies?" Another interesting point to make is that the graves opened during the earthquake which accompanied His death but they did not come out of the ground until 3 days later, after His resurrection. So, the graves were opened for three days before they came out, if I'm reading this correctly.

Again, I find no verse that says they "left with Jesus" as you put it, or ascended with Him. Can you please point that passage out to me as perhaps I overlooked it. Thanks buddy.

 

[PlainWord]

@ PW

Where does the bible say Jesus returned 40 years after the resurrection?

From 30 AD to 70 AD. The Bible doesn't give us those dates but 40 sure seems like a good number.

 

[KJV1611]

Are you referencing this?

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, [SUP]52 [/SUP]and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; [SUP]53 [/SUP]and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

I see no mention of them being in glorified bodies nor any mention of them ascending into Heaven with Christ. In fact, I find no other mention of these people being with Christ either here or later during the 40 days prior to His ascension. Further, and apparently, only those who were in the vicinity of Jerusalem were raised up. Notice also that it says "many of the bodies" and not "all of the bodies?" Another interesting point to make is that the graves opened during the earthquake which accompanied His death but they did not come out of the ground until 3 days later, after His resurrection. So, the graves were opened for three days before they came out, if I'm reading this correctly.

Again, I find no verse that says they "left with Jesus" as you put it, or ascended with Him. Can you please point that passage out to me as perhaps I overlooked it. Thanks buddy.

Once again, you have to believe the bible for exactly what it says. The Lord COMES with ten thousands of his saints. He left exactly the way he will come... he left with ten thousands of his saints.

Jude 1:14 KJV
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 

[RickyZ]

From 30 AD to 70 AD. The Bible doesn't give us those dates but 40 sure seems like a good number.

So we're basing our theology not on scripture but on "this sounds good"

 

[KJV1611]

From 30 AD to 70 AD. The Bible doesn't give us those dates but 40 sure seems like a good number.

That's my point, there is no second coming of Jesus in 40 years. You want AD 70 to be the second coming because it fits your doctrine.... even though the there is NO MENTION of Jesus returning again outside of the return from hell and the return at the end.

Hopefully you will take it easy on VCO, heartofdavid and Ahwatukee in the future lol. You are doing exactly the same thing they do.

 

[PlainWord]

What does "he who endures to the end" have to do with the second coming of Christ... those who endure to the end will be saved.

The second coming happens BEFORE the disciples finish preaching the gospel to all the cities of Israel. The time frame you're putting the second coming at is WELL AFTER the disciples preached the gospel to all of Israel. In fact, at that time the gospel had already gone to the Gentiles. Agree or no?

I take the "saved" here as "saved from the wrath" and not salvation "saved" or perhaps its both. The 98K Jews that made it out of Jerusalem alive, perhaps they came to accept the Savior when they saw Him. If we look closer at Mat 24 we see this:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Here we see the "saved" clearly deals with the flesh and not the soul. So, the remnant or Elect whose flesh were saved by the shortening of the great tribulation must have been "those who endured to the end" of the war. This group must be different from the group which fled over the mountains to Pella.

Conditions were so bad and hopeless inside the city that I imagine during tough times like these, some would come to Christ. You've heard the saying that there are no atheists in the foxhole? These poor people were living in a city with three warring factions who would kill them if they tried to leave and if they were lucky enough to escape the city, then the Romans would kill them if caught. Where else could they turn except to God?

 

[KJV1611]

Another interesting point to make is that the graves opened during the earthquake which accompanied His death but they did not come out of the ground until 3 days later, after His resurrection. So, the graves were opened for three days before they came out, if I'm reading this correctly.

GOOD LORD PW! Do you realize what you may have just discovered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Revelation 11:8-9 KJV
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [9] And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

I have to study this out further, but I believe this is right!

 

[KJV1611]

I take the "saved" here as "saved from the wrath" and not salvation "saved" or perhaps its both. The 98K Jews that made it out of Jerusalem alive, perhaps they came to accept the Savior when they saw Him. If we look closer at Mat 24 we see this:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Here we see the "saved" clearly deals with the flesh and not the soul. So, the remnant or Elect whose flesh were saved by the shortening of the great tribulation must have been "those who endured to the end" of the war. This group must be different from the group which fled over the mountains to Pella.

Conditions were so bad and hopeless inside the city that I imagine during tough times like these, some would come to Christ. You've heard the saying that there are no atheists in the foxhole? These poor people were living in a city with three warring factions who would kill them if they tried to leave and if they were lucky enough to escape the city, then the Romans would kill them if caught. Where else could they turn except to God?

It could be, but what does this have to do with Jesus returning before the gospel was preached to all the cities of Israel?

 

[KJV1611]

This is the absolute BEST thread that I have ever been involved in!

 

[KJV1611]

I believe this may be the dead bodies in the grave when Jesus died.

Jeremiah 8:1-3 KJV
At that time, saith the Lord , they shall bring out the bones of the kings of Judah, and the bones of his princes, and the bones of the priests, and the bones of the prophets, and the bones of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, out of their graves:

[2] And they shall spread them before the sun, and the moon, and all the host of heaven, whom they have loved, and whom they have served, and after whom they have walked, and whom they have sought, and whom they have worshipped: they shall not be gathered, nor be buried; they shall be for dung upon the face of the earth.

[3] And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the Lord of hosts.

 

[PlainWord]

That's my point, there is no second coming of Jesus in 40 years. You want AD 70 to be the second coming because it fits your doctrine.... even though the there is NO MENTION of Jesus returning again outside of the return from hell and the return at the end.

Hopefully you will take it easy on VCO, heartofdavid and Ahwatukee in the future lol. You are doing exactly the same thing they do.

You need to understand that the "end of the age(s)" is NOT the end of the planet. Also, please try to understand the nature of the return. It was a glorious presence return of Christ. He was seen as a bright LIGHT, lighting up the dark sky, like lightening (as He puts it.) Christ's return in 66-70 AD was the same as the many times God would appear in the OT as a "glory cloud." God often returned to instruct or to pass judgment.

Christ returned to heaven and was given an eternal kingdom. He was to sit at the Father's right side until when? Something about a footstool, right? Who were Christ's enemies? Who was He upset with and already condemned to hell? Do you think His wrath was poured out from a great distance?

Try to pick up the timing here from Heb 10:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

1) His sacrifice was made
2) He returned to heaven
3) He sat down next to God
4) He waited

What was He waiting for????

Study "footstool" my good friend. What is it?

Psa 99: Exalt the Lord our God, And worship at His footstool— He is holy.

Psa 132: Let us go into His tabernacle; Let us worship at His footstool.

Isa 66: Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. Where is the house that you will build Me? And where is the place of My rest?

Lam 2: How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Acts 7: ‘Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest?

Now pick up the context of this next verse.

Mrk 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”’

Who is Christ defining as His enemies? We don't have to look far.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then He said to them in His teaching, “Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, [SUP]39 [/SUP]the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts, [SUP]40 [/SUP]who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”

When did (does) God make the scribes His Son's footstool? Was that a 66-70 AD event or is it 2,000+ years later? If God turned the scribes into His Son's footstool ~ 70 AD, then what is Christ doing waiting around in heaven for so long?