The Rapture
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OF COURSE WE BELIEVE every Verse from Gen. 1:1 through Rev. 22:21.
How many of them do you not believe?
Here is the verse that gives you more details about the DAY mentioned in that last half of the last sentence, and what it is talking about:
Romans 11:24-27 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
{I see no hint that GOD, nor Paul considers any GENTILE to be part of ISRAEL.}
Hard to understand? Here it is in a modern TRANSLATION:
Romans 11:24-27 (GWT)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] In spite of the fact that you have been cut from a wild olive tree, you have been grafted onto a cultivated one. So wouldn't it be easier for these natural branches to be grafted onto the olive tree they belong to?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery so that you won't become arrogant. The minds of some Israelites have become closed
until all of God's non-Jewish people are included.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] In this way Israel as a whole will be saved, as Scripture says, “The Savior will come from Zion. He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My promise to them will be fulfilled when I take away their sins.”
CLEARLY, GOD and Paul see Gentile Believers and ISRAEL as two different groups of Branches grafted into the SAME VINE or OLIVE TREE, at different times, and that Olive Tree IS the MESSIAH, Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
John 15:4-6 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
John 10:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Two FOLDS grafted into the one Spiritual Body of Messiah.
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
How many of them do you not believe?
Here is the verse that gives you more details about the DAY mentioned in that last half of the last sentence, and what it is talking about:
Romans 11:24-27 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
{I see no hint that GOD, nor Paul considers any GENTILE to be part of ISRAEL.}
Hard to understand? Here it is in a modern TRANSLATION:
Romans 11:24-27 (GWT)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] In spite of the fact that you have been cut from a wild olive tree, you have been grafted onto a cultivated one. So wouldn't it be easier for these natural branches to be grafted onto the olive tree they belong to?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery so that you won't become arrogant. The minds of some Israelites have become closed
until all of God's non-Jewish people are included.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] In this way Israel as a whole will be saved, as Scripture says, “The Savior will come from Zion. He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] My promise to them will be fulfilled when I take away their sins.”
CLEARLY, GOD and Paul see Gentile Believers and ISRAEL as two different groups of Branches grafted into the SAME VINE or OLIVE TREE, at different times, and that Olive Tree IS the MESSIAH, Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
John 15:4-6 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
John 10:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Two FOLDS grafted into the one Spiritual Body of Messiah.
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
What do all those verses have to do with WHEN did the tabernacle of David get rebuilt?
Simple question.... I'm asking you if the tabernacle of David was rebuilt when Christ came or is that a future event? Please don't give a bunch of out of context verses, just answer the question - It's already done or it's in the future.
Simple question.... I'm asking you if the tabernacle of David was rebuilt when Christ came or is that a future event? Please don't give a bunch of out of context verses, just answer the question - It's already done or it's in the future.
H
Part of the problem in this discussion is the attempt to deny the clear dynamics of dispensations and God's covenants.
Dispesations is how God brackets his dealings with man.
So simple.
To redo that component is an incubator for confusion.
But dispensations are not a good starting point.
A good starting point is an awareness of the purposes of God,and the last supper.
That is a really good starting place. A God centered starting place.
It is all about him and his bride. His gentile bride.
Read Ruth. Note Boaz / Jesus and his bride,Ruth and the end of the story where all three dwell in the redeemed land. ( Ruth,Naomi,Boaz)
Easy to see,he deals lastly with his covenant Jews. They are the apple of his eye. They are the water made wine at the wedding.
AT THE WEDDING.
They,the Jews,are the ones The master of the wedding says to Jesus,"...but you saved the best for last"
The 144 k are firstfruit JEWS. They precede the main harvest of Jews in rev 14.
The church is already in heaven when his covenant people are added to the marriage supper.
Let all that be your beginning of study. Then add in things like tribulation,plagues,destruction,and planet earth)
Dispesations is how God brackets his dealings with man.
So simple.
To redo that component is an incubator for confusion.
But dispensations are not a good starting point.
A good starting point is an awareness of the purposes of God,and the last supper.
That is a really good starting place. A God centered starting place.
It is all about him and his bride. His gentile bride.
Read Ruth. Note Boaz / Jesus and his bride,Ruth and the end of the story where all three dwell in the redeemed land. ( Ruth,Naomi,Boaz)
Easy to see,he deals lastly with his covenant Jews. They are the apple of his eye. They are the water made wine at the wedding.
AT THE WEDDING.
They,the Jews,are the ones The master of the wedding says to Jesus,"...but you saved the best for last"
The 144 k are firstfruit JEWS. They precede the main harvest of Jews in rev 14.
The church is already in heaven when his covenant people are added to the marriage supper.
Let all that be your beginning of study. Then add in things like tribulation,plagues,destruction,and planet earth)
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AAARGH NOO PLAINWORD what will I do with you.
The earth is not Israel, the earth is earth, wrap your mind around that.
EARTH IS EARTH ok? What universe am I in
The earth is not Israel, the earth is earth, wrap your mind around that.
EARTH IS EARTH ok? What universe am I in
Isa 1: Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the Lord has spoken: “I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me.
Please tell me where to find the "ears of the planet, Earth."
Isa 24: Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants...The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered...The earth mourns and fades away...Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
The above "earth" is clearly Israel. The whole planet wasn't scattered abroad and didn't break the covenant. The whole planet wasn't emptied and plundered. What do you think happened, all the gold was rounded up and shot into space? Does the planet actually mourn and fade away? Seems like it's still here.
Isa 49: Sing, O heavens! Be joyful, O earth! And break out in singing, O mountains! For the Lord has comforted His people, And will have mercy on His afflicted.
I've been alive more than twice as long as you and I've never seen a literally happy planet, nor have I seen mountains sing. Do you know of any singing mountains? Here He is clearly talking about His people.
Jer 22: O earth, earth, earth, Hear the word of the Lord!...For none of his descendants shall prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling anymore in Judah.’”
Was the planet supposed to listen or God's children?
Not understanding figurative language is causing you and your futurist buddies all kinds of problems. It is an area you really need to study. Said with utmost love my young brother
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So what is your point? HE had life, and for three days only He did not have life. BUT I do not think that is what it was talking about. I believe it is talking about the Legal and binding act of Designating an Heir to all the Property that was legally HIS. Clearly JOSEPH, His Mother's husband is dead before the crucifixion, because she went home with JOHN. But something else happened just before she left with JOHN. In the Jewish culture, a man could pass on his property before his death, by a verbal statement, often calling it the designated Birthright. He could give it to anyone he so chose. It did not have to be an OFFSPRING, it could be anybody, but that verbal passing of the inheritance in that manor HAD TO HAVE two or three eye witnesses. Now we have no mention of how Joseph died, or of his naming his HEIR, either in writing, or the traditional verbal contract. Joseph's DAD, Jacob was very rich, and so was Mary's DAD, Heli. BUT THE LAW at that time FORBADE a woman from inheriting property, and Mary's DAD had no sons, so how did Jewish LAW handle that INHERITANCE? It went to the husband of the eldest daughter, when the deseased had not named a male heir. Even if Joseph died suddenly, unexpectedly, such as a heart attack; what did Jewish LAW require to be done with all that property from two inheritances? It would all go to the Eldest Son, making Jesus the inheritor of all of Joseph's property. If Joseph actually verally named Jesus before he died as his inheritor, JESUS would have the LEGAL TITLE "SON OF JOSEPH", the same would be true, even if Joseph had name a Servant his heir. That would explain why John and Phillip had no problem with wording in this verse:
John 1:45 (ESV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
Before anyone starts pointing fingures, know that I researched all of this years ago and even found a Jewish Christian Lawer that posted an article verifying the LEGAL comments I am posting, and that plus the fact that we only have a fraction of the history facts surrounding the life of JESUS, makes this the most logical explanation of what happened to the Property of Joseph:
John 21:25 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
Now, there is some indication that Joseph died within two years before the Death of Jesus.
Matthew 8:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
Therefore, we know Jesus was not an inheritor at the time He said that. So where is the evidence of JESUS Passing of the Birthright to some other male?
John 19:25-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple He loved standing there, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.
There are the three witness, and the Jewish Lawyer who's article I read, said that was quite sufficient according to Jewish LAW to be considered a LEGAL passing of the Birthright Inheritance, much the same as Esau sold his birthright to his brother Jacob. Not only did JOHN take Mary home with him, but He inherited all of Joseph's property to support her, AND HE HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO BE CALLED BY THE TITLE, "SON OF JOSEPH". Thus Jesus died owning NOTHING. But Mary lost both her husband and eldest son in a short amount of time.
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In focusing on that last part of the sentence YOU take your eyes off of the specific implication of first statement in the VERSE:
Daniel 9:26 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.
AFTER is before the 70th Week of Daniel, which BEGINS WITH the signing of the Seven Year Peace Treaty Covenant.
THAT TOTALLY JUSTIFIES the GAP that is the Church Age as absolute FACT.
John 1:45 (ESV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
Before anyone starts pointing fingures, know that I researched all of this years ago and even found a Jewish Christian Lawer that posted an article verifying the LEGAL comments I am posting, and that plus the fact that we only have a fraction of the history facts surrounding the life of JESUS, makes this the most logical explanation of what happened to the Property of Joseph:
John 21:25 (ESV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
Now, there is some indication that Joseph died within two years before the Death of Jesus.
Matthew 8:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
Therefore, we know Jesus was not an inheritor at the time He said that. So where is the evidence of JESUS Passing of the Birthright to some other male?
John 19:25-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] When Jesus saw His mother and the disciple He loved standing there, He said to His mother, “Woman, here is your son.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Then He said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.
There are the three witness, and the Jewish Lawyer who's article I read, said that was quite sufficient according to Jewish LAW to be considered a LEGAL passing of the Birthright Inheritance, much the same as Esau sold his birthright to his brother Jacob. Not only did JOHN take Mary home with him, but He inherited all of Joseph's property to support her, AND HE HAD THE LEGAL RIGHT TO BE CALLED BY THE TITLE, "SON OF JOSEPH". Thus Jesus died owning NOTHING. But Mary lost both her husband and eldest son in a short amount of time.
><>t<><
In focusing on that last part of the sentence YOU take your eyes off of the specific implication of first statement in the VERSE:
Daniel 9:26 (HCSB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.
AFTER is before the 70th Week of Daniel, which BEGINS WITH the signing of the Seven Year Peace Treaty Covenant.
THAT TOTALLY JUSTIFIES the GAP that is the Church Age as absolute FACT.
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To Popeye and Issachar,
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.
In the above, does a literal sea creature rise out of the oceans with 7 literal heads and 10 horns? Does this beast look like a leopard with bear feet and a lion's mouth? Does this creature actually speak blasphemies against God? You guys really see a literal sea creature fighting against Christians with the whole planet following it? You guys really see this creature having authority over every tribe, nation and tongue? Why wouldn't the planet just use nuclear weapons to defeat it. I can't see China, Russia and the USA just agreeing to surrender to this sea creature. I just want to see how far you take your literalism.
My figurative way of looking at this would be a Gentile empire arises outside of Israel. This empire has features of 3 previous empires, Babylon, Medes and Persians and the Greeks. This empire was Rome. This empire waged war against Jews and Christians. The rest of the known world marveled at Rome.
Which of our views seems more plausible? I know, my view destroys just about everything you've always believed. Sorry about that.
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.
In the above, does a literal sea creature rise out of the oceans with 7 literal heads and 10 horns? Does this beast look like a leopard with bear feet and a lion's mouth? Does this creature actually speak blasphemies against God? You guys really see a literal sea creature fighting against Christians with the whole planet following it? You guys really see this creature having authority over every tribe, nation and tongue? Why wouldn't the planet just use nuclear weapons to defeat it. I can't see China, Russia and the USA just agreeing to surrender to this sea creature. I just want to see how far you take your literalism.
My figurative way of looking at this would be a Gentile empire arises outside of Israel. This empire has features of 3 previous empires, Babylon, Medes and Persians and the Greeks. This empire was Rome. This empire waged war against Jews and Christians. The rest of the known world marveled at Rome.
Which of our views seems more plausible? I know, my view destroys just about everything you've always believed. Sorry about that.
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