The Rapture
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Romans 11:1 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Who are God's people? The children of the flesh or the children of the promise? Children of the promise.
Which was Paul, a child of the flesh or a child of the promise? Both!
Why was he not cast away, because of his flesh descent or because of his spiritual descent?
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Who are God's people? The children of the flesh or the children of the promise? Children of the promise.
Which was Paul, a child of the flesh or a child of the promise? Both!
Why was he not cast away, because of his flesh descent or because of his spiritual descent?
erm...not sure. not really.
I think God is consistent.
He purifies his Church - and AD70 was a massive purification of Israel. That is why it was fiery.
200,000 Jews survived. Plus you had a massive number of Israelites already in the Church, (who is Israel).
So I guess God probably hoped those 200,000 survivors considered the error of their ways, and accepted Christ.
Back to you..
I think God is consistent.
He purifies his Church - and AD70 was a massive purification of Israel. That is why it was fiery.
200,000 Jews survived. Plus you had a massive number of Israelites already in the Church, (who is Israel).
So I guess God probably hoped those 200,000 survivors considered the error of their ways, and accepted Christ.
Back to you..
Romans 11:2-5 KJV
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
God has not cast away his people which he foreknew... who are the ones he foreknew, FLESH ISRAEL or the 7000 flesh descendants he CHOSE out of FLESH ISRAEL?
Who is God's chosen people, FLESH ISRAEL or the 7000 he CHOSE out of flesh Israel?
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
God has not cast away his people which he foreknew... who are the ones he foreknew, FLESH ISRAEL or the 7000 flesh descendants he CHOSE out of FLESH ISRAEL?
Who is God's chosen people, FLESH ISRAEL or the 7000 he CHOSE out of flesh Israel?
I don't see it that way, I see it as end of earthly Jerusalem and the transfer of the kingdom to the gentiles... I could be wrong though but we can disagree on this. 
I haven't sudied this part of Ezekiel a whole lot so I'm learning here by asking questions. Ezekiel has the iniquity of Israel and Judah put upon him, who do you think Ezekiel represents here, Israel and Judah, Christ?
Ezekiel 4:5 KJV
For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
I haven't sudied this part of Ezekiel a whole lot so I'm learning here by asking questions. Ezekiel has the iniquity of Israel and Judah put upon him, who do you think Ezekiel represents here, Israel and Judah, Christ?
Ezekiel 4:5 KJV
For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Well actually spiritual Israel has ALWAYS been the church. Christ was in the church in the wilderness but she was hidden, when Jesus came she "came out of her closet", it is now known who the church is and always has been.
Joel 2:16 KJV
Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joel 2:16 KJV
Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
The church has always been God's chosen people. The church in old testament times was almost all Jewish but there were a few saved gentiles back then. Today the church is almost all gentiles, but there are a few saved Jews today.
It's the church, both Jews and gentiles, both in old testament times and in new testament times that are God's chosen people. The flesh descendants of Abraham and Israel have NEVER been God's chosen people.
It's the church, both Jews and gentiles, both in old testament times and in new testament times that are God's chosen people. The flesh descendants of Abraham and Israel have NEVER been God's chosen people.
Let's try again. Sorry teacher.....
Abraham fathered the Church, penned in in Israel, which then was let out to go to the world.
All Paul is saying is that although a lot of Jews were deadwood, the core of the Church was still Jewish. SO God's basic promise to Abraham stood - indeed, it had to stand.
[FONT="]
2 And I will make of thee a great people, (Church) and I will bless thee, and make thy name great (Israel); and thou shalt be a blessing: (Church) 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed (Christ + Church, going to all people).
Agree/disagree?[/FONT]
Abraham fathered the Church, penned in in Israel, which then was let out to go to the world.
All Paul is saying is that although a lot of Jews were deadwood, the core of the Church was still Jewish. SO God's basic promise to Abraham stood - indeed, it had to stand.
[FONT="]
2 And I will make of thee a great people, (Church) and I will bless thee, and make thy name great (Israel); and thou shalt be a blessing: (Church) 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed (Christ + Church, going to all people).
Agree/disagree?[/FONT]
Yes I agree with that. Abraham was the father of many nations, children of the flesh descendants of Isaac which eventually became known as the children of Israel, the flesh children of Ishmael which I suppose went on to be known as the arabs/muslims (I'm not sure if that's true or not), and the children of the promise. The children of the promise are God's chosen people that he chose out of all those other nations.
You cannot really differentiate between tribal Israel & the Church though KJ. They are one and the same.
You were born a physical Israelite and therefore born into the assembly of God.
God's promise to Abraham was that he would father the Israel/Church.
So if God cast off all physical Israelites, he would be reneging on his promise. That is why Jesus said:
37 [FONT="]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/FONT]
You were born a physical Israelite and therefore born into the assembly of God.
God's promise to Abraham was that he would father the Israel/Church.
So if God cast off all physical Israelites, he would be reneging on his promise. That is why Jesus said:
37 [FONT="]All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/FONT]
Maybe this will clarify the issue, showing here that the Church is nothing new that just arrived in the New Testament but rather it is something that was there in the Old Testament as well. Anytime you have a group of people who are called out it is Ekklesia which is translated church, congregation or assembly.
In the Old Testament you could be a flesh and blood descendant of Moses and it would not help you one bit, if you decided to forsake the Law you were cut off from among the people. So if I had to put it as simply as I can: Ekklesia (church) = the faithful [of] Israel.
A gentile who obeyed the Law and joined Israel was better than a flesh and blood descendant of Israel who did not keep the Law.
New International Version
He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
New Living Translation
Moses was with our ancestors, the assembly of God's people in the wilderness, when the angel spoke to him at Mount Sinai. And there Moses received life-giving words to pass on to us.
English Standard Version
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.
Berean Study Bible
He was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. And he received living words to pass on to us.
Berean Literal Bible
This is the one having been in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel speaking to him in Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us,
New American Standard Bible
"This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
King James Bible
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
In the Old Testament you could be a flesh and blood descendant of Moses and it would not help you one bit, if you decided to forsake the Law you were cut off from among the people. So if I had to put it as simply as I can: Ekklesia (church) = the faithful [of] Israel.
A gentile who obeyed the Law and joined Israel was better than a flesh and blood descendant of Israel who did not keep the Law.
New International Version
He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
New Living Translation
Moses was with our ancestors, the assembly of God's people in the wilderness, when the angel spoke to him at Mount Sinai. And there Moses received life-giving words to pass on to us.
English Standard Version
This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him at Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us.
Berean Study Bible
He was in the assembly in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers. And he received living words to pass on to us.
Berean Literal Bible
This is the one having been in the congregation in the wilderness with the angel speaking to him in Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers. He received living oracles to give to us,
New American Standard Bible
"This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
King James Bible
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Yes, but your question is: "Has God not cast away the people he foreknew because they are flesh, or spiritual Israelites?".
Paul's question is not: "Has God cast away spiritual Israelites?" This question would make no sense.
The question is: "Has God cast away Israel, who he originally chose to be the Church?"
The answer is no as God promised Abraham that his flesh would be the Church, so God has to honour the promise, so therefore there is an election of grace.
God has chosen certain Jews to be the Church, in order to fulfill his promise to Abraham, of tribal Israel becoming the Church.
Paul's question is not: "Has God cast away spiritual Israelites?" This question would make no sense.
The question is: "Has God cast away Israel, who he originally chose to be the Church?"
The answer is no as God promised Abraham that his flesh would be the Church, so God has to honour the promise, so therefore there is an election of grace.
God has chosen certain Jews to be the Church, in order to fulfill his promise to Abraham, of tribal Israel becoming the Church.
i agree, there was a remnant of Jews in Paul's time just like there is a remnant today. God cast away flesh Israel, it is now the times of the Gentiles, but even though it's now the times of the Gentiles, God has still not cast away his chosen people that happen to be Jewish. I think we are on the same page on this, maybe just some terminology differences.
Lol. But Paul uses two definitions of Israelite simultaneously:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Meaning there are flesh Israelites
+
there are flesh + spirit Israelites
So God cast away SOME of flesh Israel, not ALL of flesh Israel, because he kept flesh + spirit Israel
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Meaning there are flesh Israelites
+
there are flesh + spirit Israelites
So God cast away SOME of flesh Israel, not ALL of flesh Israel, because he kept flesh + spirit Israel
KJV1611 You say that you believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth. Yet you believe Daniel 9:27 and the great tribulation has happened, that there will be no literal animal sacrifices in the third temple (if you believe in the third temple to begin with), and you do not seem to think that there will be a mass conversion of Jews in the state of Israel during the end times. How do you reconcile these positions with a literal 1000 year reign?
I just do not see it matching very well since the traditional premillennial position is that Jesus returns to the mount of olives to save a remnant of the Jews and destroys the man of lawlessness and sets up His earthly Kingdom in which the Jews (maybe the Church? depending if dispensational or historic premill) will rule.
So your position intrigues me very much since I have never met anyone with such a position, is there a name for it and does someone teach it?
I just do not see it matching very well since the traditional premillennial position is that Jesus returns to the mount of olives to save a remnant of the Jews and destroys the man of lawlessness and sets up His earthly Kingdom in which the Jews (maybe the Church? depending if dispensational or historic premill) will rule.
So your position intrigues me very much since I have never met anyone with such a position, is there a name for it and does someone teach it?