The Rapture

[Zen]

Well....LOL I've been digging here but I can't find any....could it be that I'm wrong? Amazing! LOL I'll keep digging though

If we use scripture as much as possible for edifying, God speaks very well for Himself.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

It annoys me quite a bit when people keep going on and on about Jews, they seem to forget that Israel's children became the 12 tribes. God's covenant was made with Abraham, Isaac and then Israel's children, the 12 tribes.

Exodus 19:
19 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Notice how it doesn't say "the Jews".

Regarding your earlier comment about 'Jews are the chosen people', I believe you may be referring to this:

Romans 11:28

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Amos 3:2
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

God chose Israel out of all the people on the earth and so punished them so they could be made better, and God made a covenant with them, He wants them to repent.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The people living in Jerusalem at that time were mostly Jews. Many of the people of the Northern Kingdom were taken away.

Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

 

[Issachar92]

Everyone who is in Christ is certainly an heir of the promises of Abraham, grafted in, a citizen in the commonwealth of Israel. Yup, Israel.

That doesn't mean that God is done and ain't gonna fulfill His promises to Israel according to the flesh. Again and again: The Jews are gathered in unbelief FOR THE PURPOSE OF the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[Denadii]

They are chosen, the only branches broken off are the other eleven tribes. Judah is the tribe of David. The righteous line. the other tribes will be saved in the last days when the fulfillment of the gentiles is complete.. God promised that with the covenant he has with Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac.. that will be the remnant of Israel.

Well I'm from Missouri...I gotta be showed. Scripture?

 

[KJV1611]

Well The Jews are still the chosen people but we are the adopted ones. Did you know? An adopted son (or daughter) by covenant has a much stronger position than a natural born son. A man can disown his natural son but he cannot disown his adopted son. By blood covenant law...he would have to die if he broke that covenant

The Jews after the flesh have NEVER been Gods chosen people. It's always been the children of the promise who were the chosen ones.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus said, "I will build my Church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." From the time of His death, the Lord has been building His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church is completed, then the Lord will gather it. After that, God will click on His prophetic stop watch and pick up where He left off with that last seven years in fulfillment of the decree.

Yeah he was building it back in the old testament. Saved by grace is the church isn't it? Well they were saved by grace and the bible said Christ was in the church in the wilderness. This another dispy blind spot.

 

[KJV1611]

The whole entire nation of Israel is his chosen. Judah is the only nation of the twelve tribes that God did not blind their eyes to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Not according to the bible. The flesh descendants of Israel ARE NOT the children of God... the children of the promise are the chosen ones and they come in all flavors lol.. Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 9:8 KJV
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[KJV1611]

Why shrug, answer the question. If you are in Christ can you say "I am part of Israel" as per Ephesians 2, Galatians 3 and so on??

You are very bright! Are you really only 25.... it took me about 40 years to figure these things out lol.

 

[KJV1611]

If we use scripture as much as possible for edifying, God speaks very well for Himself.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

It annoys me quite a bit when people keep going on and on about Jews, they seem to forget that Israel's children became the 12 tribes. God's covenant was made with Abraham, Isaac and then Israel's children, the 12 tribes.

Exodus 19:
19 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Notice how it doesn't say "the Jews".

Regarding your earlier comment about 'Jews are the chosen people', I believe you may be referring to this:

Romans 11:28

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Amos 3:2
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

God chose Israel out of all the people on the earth and so punished them so they could be made better, and God made a covenant with them, He wants them to repent.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The people living in Jerusalem at that time were mostly Jews. Many of the people of the Northern Kingdom were taken away.

Philippians 3:5
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

God's covennant was with Abraham and his SEED - Christ. Christ and all those in Christ inherit the blessings and the land which goes WAY beyond that stink hole in the middle east... The MEEK shall inherit the EARTH.

 

[KJV1611]

Everyone who is in Christ is certainly an heir of the promises of Abraham, grafted in, a citizen in the commonwealth of Israel. Yup, Israel.

That doesn't mean that God is done and ain't gonna fulfill His promises to Israel according to the flesh. Again and again: The Jews are gathered in unbelief FOR THE PURPOSE OF the time of Jacob's trouble.

Jacob had his trouble in AD 70, he was wiped out and the kingdom was taken from him and given to the gentiles and NO FRUIT will ever grow on him again FOREVER. I don't know where you guys get this stuff from.

 

[MattforJesus]

Yeah he was building it back in the old testament. Saved by grace is the church isn't it? Well they were saved by grace and the bible said Christ was in the church in the wilderness. This another dispy blind spot.

The last 7 years is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark of the beast,in which savation is no longer available to them,and bring Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The Bible says Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,and so all Israel shall be saved.

The last 7 years,Israel is blinded in part,they recognize the Old Testament,but not the New,until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,then Israel will not be blinded in part anymore,but as a nation accept Jesus,and so all Israel shall be saved,the kingdom on earth restored to Israel during the millennial reign of Christ.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Israel is protected from physical attack,and from dealing with the policy of the world when they come together,when they say Peace and safety,during the first three and one half years.

During that time salvation is available to the world.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Israel is protected for the last three and one half years from physical attack,the people that do not love God followed the beast kingdom,and took the mark of the beast,and salvation is no longer available to them.

The beast and the world make war against all the saints,in which the Bible says the beast makes war with the saints,and prevails against them,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people,and when he shall have scattered the power of the holy people,then the resurrection happens.

Some people think that there is 2 resurrections of the saints,but it is not true,for the Bible says blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection,for the second resurrection has no hold on them.

There is only 2 resurrections,one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ,and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

There is no resurrection of the saints before the 7 years period,and then at the end of it,for the Bible says if they do not make it in the first resurrection,they have to go to the second resurrection after the millennial reign of Christ,and Jesus said they were a hypocrite if they did not make it in the first resurection,so they lost out on salvation.

The 7 years period is a future event in which Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack.Salvation is available during the first half,and then when the world follows the beast,and takes his mark,then salvation is no longer available,and they make war against all the saints,and those who remain at the end of the 7 years period shall be gathered unto Christ,and God pours His wrath on the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon where the world attacks Israel,and Jesus comes back with all the saints,and saves Israel,and puts down the world,and the kingdom restored to Israel in the millennial reign of Christ.

 

[KJV1611]

How did remnant turn into some magical word that means every Jew will be saved at the end? I'll tell you where it comes from... a GROSS misunderstanding of "So then all Isarel shall be saved." We are Israel too people!

 

[KJV1611]

The last 7 years is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and take the mark of the beast,in which savation is no longer available to them,and bring Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The Bible says Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,and so all Israel shall be saved.

The last 7 years,Israel is blinded in part,they recognize the Old Testament,but not the New,until salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,then Israel will not be blinded in part anymore,but as a nation accept Jesus,and so all Israel shall be saved,the kingdom on earth restored to Israel during the millennial reign of Christ.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Israel is protected from physical attack,and from dealing with the policy of the world when they come together,when they say Peace and safety,during the first three and one half years.

During that time salvation is available to the world.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Israel is protected for the last three and one half years from physical attack,the people that do not love God followed the beast kingdom,and took the mark of the beast,and salvation is no longer available to them.

The beast and the world make war against all the saints,in which the Bible says the beast makes war with the saints,and prevails against them,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people,and when he shall have scattered the power of the holy people,then the resurrection happens.

Some people think that there is 2 resurrections of the saints,but it is not true,for the Bible says blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection,for the second resurrection has no hold on them.

There is only 2 resurrections,one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ,and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.

There is no resurrection of the saints before the 7 years period,and then at the end of it,for the Bible says if they do not make it in the first resurrection,they have to go to the second resurrection after the millennial reign of Christ,and Jesus said they were a hypocrite if they did not make it in the first resurection,so they lost out on salvation.

The 7 years period is a future event in which Israel is protected for the 7 years period from physical attack.Salvation is available during the first half,and then when the world follows the beast,and takes his mark,then salvation is no longer available,and they make war against all the saints,and those who remain at the end of the 7 years period shall be gathered unto Christ,and God pours His wrath on the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon where the world attacks Israel,and Jesus comes back with all the saints,and saves Israel,and puts down the world,and the kingdom restored to Israel in the millennial reign of Christ.

You're a good guy and I don't like to argue with people that I like, but there is no last 7 years, it's a dispensational fairy tale and I sincerely hope that you will see this one day. You guys have been duped.

 

[KJV1611]

Romans: 9. 8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Bible Offline

Keep it simple people, and it doesn't get any simpler than this - the children of the flesh ARE NOT the children of God and they never have been. No other verse in the Bible will contradict this verse and if you think it does then you don't know who the Israel of God is.

 

[KJV1611]

Romans: 9. 8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Bible Offline

Keep it simple people, and it doesn't get any simpler than this - the children of the flesh ARE NOT the children of God and they never have been. No other verse in the Bible will contradict this verse and if you think it does then you don't know who the Israel of God is.

Maybe the NIV is easier to understand for non kjv folks... it pains me to post an niv verse lol.

Romans 9:8New International Version (NIV)

8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

 

[VCO]

Dispensationalist think the flesh descendants of Israel are the chosen people so that practically worship the jews.

Never in the history of the Entire Bible has GOD been SO SPECIFICALLY LITERAL. And NEVER in the history of Mankind have so many claiming to be BELIEVERS, chosen NOT to BELIEVE EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAID.

7:5-8 The 144,000 are clearly Jewish believers, not members of some 20th century Gentile cult. These Jewish saints are saved during the early part of the Tribulation. The seal on their foreheads brands them as belonging to God and guarantees that they will be preserved alive during the ensuing seven years.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

7:4-8. John heard the names of 12 tribes with 12,000 from each tribe... sealed and thus protected. The 12 tribes are not "lost" as some contend.
Attempts have been made to identify the 12 tribes here with the church, mostly to avoid the implication that this is literally Israel. The fact that specific tribes were mentioned and specific numbers from each tribe were indicated would seem to remove this from the symbolic and to justify literal interpretation. If God intended these verses to represent Israel literally, He would have used this means. Nowhere else in the Bible do a dozen references to the 12 tribes mean the church. Obviously Israel will be in the Tribulation, and though men do not know the identification of each tribe today, certainly God knows.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

7:4 I heard how many were sealed: 144,000. Those who were sealed were from every tribe of the people of Israel: Unlike occasions where John was shown a multitude of countless beings described as “ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands times thousands” (Revelation 5:11) and “a large crowd from every nation, tribe, people, and language. No one was able to count how many people there were” (Revelation 7:9), in this case, John heard an exact number of people who would have this seal of God on their foreheads. The number was 144,000, which was comprised of twelve thousand members from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. During this period of tribulation, these 144,000 would be sealed by God, so the entire world would know to Whom they belonged, and no one would be able to harm them (Revelation 9:4). There are some commentators who reject a literal interpretation of this group as being specifically 144,000 in number or Jewish in identity, and they instead consider this group to include the entire sum of believers on the earth during this time of judgment. However, rarely is the Book of Revelation so clear and precise in its wording as it is in this passage, so it seems most logical in such cases to adhere to a literal interpretation.[2]

Easy-To-Read Commentary Series, The - Easy-to-Read Commentary Series – Revelation: Tribulation and Triumph.

This company of the 144,000 can be identified without any speculation whatsoever. To me it is almost nonsense for any group to claim that they are the 144,000. Two cults did that in their beginnings, but then they passed 144,000 in membership. Apparently, they were not very optimistic when they started out. They say they take it literally, but they have a problem, now that they have passed that number. They should have gone out of business when they got to 144,000, but they didn't.
This number does not refer to any group in existence today, nor does it refer to the church. During the Great Tribulation, 144,000 are going to be saved "out of every tribe of the children of Israel." If you think that you are in the 144,000, you are not only saying that you belong to Israel, but you also had better know your tribe because the tribes are going to be identified.
It is very clear that God will have a remnant of His people who are going to be saved. This may seem to you like a big number, but actually, it is very small. There are over fourteen million Jews today in the world, and in comparison to that number, you can see that the remnant of the children of Israel is really going to be very small.
There is no use speculating here or trying to draw on symbols. Some even say that the number -- 144,000 -- is a symbol of another number. Cannot God say what He wants to say? Cannot He count? Certainly He can. If He says 144,000, I do not think He means 145,000. I think He means exactly 144,000.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

The term Israel must be interpreted in accordance with its normal Old and New Testament usage as a reference to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Nor is there any exegetical reason not to interpret the numbers 144,000 and 12,000 literally.
That there were 12,000 sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel speaks of God's elective purpose. Mere random human choice would not come up with such an even division. While the tribal records were lost when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in a.d. 70, God knows who belongs to each tribe.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Revelation 1-11.

 

[KJV1611]

Never in the history of the Entire Bible has GOD been SO SPECIFICALLY LITERAL. And NEVER in the history of Mankind have so many claiming to be BELIEVERS, chosen NOT to BELIEVE EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAID.

So you STILL believe the children of the flesh are the children even when the bible says the exact opposite.... unbelievable!

 

[KJV1611]

You guys post 10000 out of context verses and verses that have nothing to with the subject to disprove a simple verse that says the children of the flesh are not the children of God.why can't yall believe the simple easy to understand verses?

 

[VCO]

The Roman army was as much 'armies' as those who gather today,

Tell me, HOW does one who claims to BELIEVE, DOUBT SO MUCH, including DOUBTING GOD is intelligent enough to SAY WHAT ACTUALLY MEANS?

Revelation 16:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

Revelation 19:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and against His army.

Zechariah 14:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

Zechariah 14:3 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.

 

[Denadii]

You guys post 10000 out of context verses and verses that have nothing to with the subject to disprove a simple verse that says the children of the flesh are not the children of God.why can't yall believe the simple easy to understand verses?

Ah Man..They're trying.....very LOL

 

[VCO]

So you STILL believe the children of the flesh are the children even when the bible says the exact opposite.... unbelievable!

NO!

I BELIEVE GOD WHEN HE SAYS HE SAVES A REMNANT.

I BELIEVE GOD WHEN HE SAYS HIS COVENANT WITH ISRAEL AND HIS DESCENTDENTS IS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT.


That Everlasting CovenanT is for MORTAL HUMAN DESCENDANTS to inherit the LAND of CANAAN. NOT FOR Jews or other people in their ETERNAL, Glorified Bodies.

Genesis 45:7 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And God sent me before you to preserve you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance.

2 Kings 19:30-31 (ASV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and out of mount Zion they that shall escape: the zeal of Jehovah shall perform this.

2 Chronicles 34:21 (NIV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the remnant in Israel and Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD's anger that is poured out on us because our fathers have not kept the word of the LORD; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written in this book."

Isaiah 1:9 (ASV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Except Jehovah of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isaiah 10:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and they that are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again lean upon him that smote them, but shall lean upon Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.


Isaiah 28:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] On that day the LORD of Hosts will become a crown of beauty and a diadem of splendor to the remnant of His people,


Isaiah 37:32 (HCSB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] For a remnant will go out from Jerusalem and survivors, from Mount Zion. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.’


Zechariah 14:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

Jeremiah 50:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] 'In those days and at that time,' declares the LORD, 'search will be made for the iniquity of Israel, but there will be none; and for the sins of Judah, but they will not be found; for I will pardon those whom I leave as a remnant.'

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Genesis 17:7-8 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.



I believe WHAT GOD SAID, and apparently you believe SOMETHING ELSE.