The Rapture

PlainWord · Jun 29, 2017

And those "Last Days" ended in 70 or 73 AD. It has been as long since then as it was prior to then for the nation of Israel. For the "last days" to still apply to us, it would have made the days of Christ like "half time." Clearly they were not living at half time but were well inside the 2 minute warning. They maybe had time for 1-2 more plays before game over (complete and utter destruction of their world as they knew it).

Read 1 Thes, the whole book without stopping to get the flavor. Read it with the idea that the end of their age was coming in 70 AD and see if it rings true.

tanakh · Jun 29, 2017

Can anyone reconcile the idea of a literal Millennium with Christ ruling in Jerusalem with Peters statement in 2 Peter 3:10-13..

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of god wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nervertheless we according to his promise look for a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem is Sodom to God. So apply the same template. Destroyed by fire.

stoicheîon - translated as elements, also mean Jewish ceremonial requirements, e.g. temple practices

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So I think it means the destruction of Jerusalem by fire

Enow · Jun 29, 2017

tanakh said:

The reference in Peter is before the great tribulation and at the pre trib rapture when after the gospel is preached everywhere, the calamity of fire will come burning one third of the earth which in turn is the cause for the new world order and the coming mark of the beast system which is why the third angel in Revelation warned everyone the consequence for taking the mark is the lake of fire.

Jesus warned about the fire coming of verse 49 in Luke 12:40-49 and then again of verse 29 in Luke 17:27-37 & of verse 33 in Luke 21:33-36.

One could suspect that if a solar flare would occur, it could burn one side of the earth; hence the entire western hemisphere after the pre trib rapture, setting the stage for the coming great tribulation, but that is only a guess as to the source of this fire.

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

Interesting scriptures Enow.

[FONT=&quot]Luke 12:
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?[/FONT]
........
[FONT=&quot]49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Jesus replies to Peter that his second coming will bring fire onto the earth, but adds that the fire is already kindled. It was kindled in AD70 with the burning down of the Temple. [/FONT]

tanakh · Jun 29, 2017

Enow said:

The scripture references you use do not match the idea that only one third of the earth will be on fire. Jesus said that HEAVEN and Earth will pass away not some of it. He used what happened at Sodom as an example. Nothing was left of Sodom or the people who lived there. Fact is this passage is rarely if ever discussed by Dispensationalists because it just doesnt fit into their version of events. Even on this site I have never seen it discussed on a last days thread thats why I brought it up.

Enow · Jun 29, 2017

J7 said:

For Jesus to say "if" and then you said it was kindled are two different things.

The Temple was prophesied by Jesus to have her stones thrown down; not burned. I am sure all the wood in the Temple was burned but the Temple was largely of stone and kind of hard to burn that one down. The stones were thrown down.

So do take verse 49 in context of the judgment God will give His House upon as to why some of His servants will be cut off and be given stripes when this fire comes on the earth.

Luke 12:[SUP]40 [/SUP]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.[SUP] 41 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?[SUP] 42 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?[SUP] 43 [/SUP]Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.[SUP] 44 [/SUP]Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.[SUP] 45 [/SUP]But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;[SUP] 46 [/SUP]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.[SUP] 47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.[SUP] 48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[SUP]49 [/SUP]I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Verse 29 of Luke 17:27-37 should tell you what kind of fire is coming on the earth to escape by way of Him.

Luke 17:[SUP]27 [/SUP]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[SUP] 28 [/SUP]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[SUP] 29 [/SUP]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[SUP] 30 [/SUP]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.[SUP]31 [/SUP]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot's wife.[SUP]33 [/SUP]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.[SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.[SUP] 35 [/SUP]Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[SUP] 36 [/SUP]Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.[SUP] 37 [/SUP]And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

That is an escape from the fire coming on the earth when the Bridegroom comes.

VCO · Jun 29, 2017

Bladerunner said:

No, it is not as bad as an Atheist Forum. Several years ago, I was posting on the TOPIX - Christian Forum, where they did not monitor the posts at all, and it was EXTREMELY WORSE THAN THIS SITE every will be. Once the Atheists found that out, it was like opening the flood gate. I got called every filthy name in the book, and they even frequently said EXTREMELY FILTHY THINGS about our LORD, deliberately trying to upset us Christians. Some so VULGAR, I would never repeat or describe any of them. I was trying to be a faithful witness one yard from HELL, and then I remember something an elderly pastor told me years ago about witnessing. "I was raised on a farm where we raised a lot of pigs. It was my Job to feed the pigs, but I never did crawl into the pigpens and wallow around to feed the pigs. I poured the food in from outside the pen."

Now, at one point it time, After I left TOPIX, I found a similar site to this one (Bible-Discussion.com), then they got very lax about enforcing the no name calling rules, and it became far worse than this one. I decided to go to site that had no reason to have any bickering. I landed on a site that restricted it's membership to Conservative Evangelicals. After six months, I was totally bored to tears, because we agreed on EVERYTHING. The most common response to any Post was, "Yeah, that is what I believe too."

That is how I ended up on this site.

Enow · Jun 29, 2017

tanakh said:

I was referring to Revelation citing that one third of the earth will burn up. Luke 21:33 speaks of the heaven and the earth may pass away... which is indicative to the size of the calamity. I should have included the earlier verses.

Luke 21:[SUP]25 [/SUP]And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;[SUP] 26 [/SUP]Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.[SUP]27 [/SUP]And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

What we know of as Heaven and Earth shall pass away. The world will be a disastrously dangerous place after the pre trib rapture; hence the coming fire on the earth that will change everything and the subsequent coming great tribulation.

Luke 21:[SUP]28 [/SUP]And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.[SUP]29 [/SUP]And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;[SUP] 30 [/SUP]When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.[SUP]31 [/SUP]So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Do you think the cares of this life the way the heaven and earth is now can be a snare to believers? I do. Being persecuted to death during the great tribulation is hardly a time where believers would be tempted to love their lives to not want to leave it.

He also used Sodom as an example of the carefree lifestyle that believers will find themselves in and why they need to be prepared by Him to be willing and not just being ready to go as found abiding in Him as His disciple.

VCO · Jun 29, 2017

tanakh said:

No Problem!

The Day of the LORD is everything from the Son of Man Calling Out His Bride prior to The Great Tribulation, all the way thru the 1000 Year Kingdom, even the burning up of this OLD EARTH, and possibly EVEN the JUDGEMENT DAY itself. That DAY ends just before the New Heaven and New Earth (THE ETERNAL STATE) begins.

HOW MANY DAYS IS THAT? ONE DAY AND A FEW MINUTES.

Now you should know better than not to read the WHOLE CONTEXT, look at what PETER SAID IN THE TWO VERSES IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE ONES YOU QUOTED:

2 Peter 3:8-9 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Bogadile · Jun 29, 2017

So amidst all of this arguing I would like to ask all the Historic Premillennial believers how do they reconcile Jerusalem being such a big part of the 7 year tribulation (Still looking for this in the Bible) yet many of them are Supersessionists?

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

Matthew 22:7
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

The temple was prophesied to be burned.

See also Hebrews 10 & 12

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

Matthew 3 : 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

I can give you many more scriptures, but you can also agree with me Enow.

valiant · Jun 29, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

And these have taken place through the centuries. The wrath of God was first revealed in Romans 1.18. The Christian will be saved from wrath by being delivered through it. That is the purpose of his being sealed by God.

Very easily, by being sealed by God

.

The church has 'gone through' the entire wrath of God in Rom 1.18 while not being subject to that wrath.

LOL of course not! It does not fit your theories.

So that is the gathering of the church.

But not are the final trumpet. That rakes place at the rapture

Where does Paul say that?

No they gather the living at the rapture, who meet the resurrected saints in the air.

At least we agree on the fact. and this occurs at the end if time.

Actually they go wherever the Lord goes. They are ever with the Lord.

The living church when Jesus comes. They are gathered to meet the Lord.

LOL and I thought that it referred to the worldwideness of the event, just like the rapture which was the gathering of mortal bodies from the entire planet.

so it depicts the wideness of His call

But it isn't talking abut a rapture, while Matth 24 is.

Yes they are being raptured

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

@Tanakh

We know that Stoicheion means the ceremonial law, because not only is that an actual connotation, but also Paul uses it in this way

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Burninglight · Jun 29, 2017

tanakh said:

Can anyone reconcile the idea of a literal Millennium with Christ ruling in Jerusalem with Peters statement in 2 Peter 3:10-13..

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of god wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nervertheless we according to his promise look for a new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I am looking forward to it.

Burninglight · Jun 29, 2017

J7 said:

I am not sure what point you're trying to make with these verses. But I used to believe that it is only one life and only what's done for Christ will last and not be burned up, but I have since changed my mind about that.

J7 · Jun 29, 2017

The point is that God burned Jerusalem in AD70

PlainWord · Jun 29, 2017

tanakh said:

There is no literal millennial reigning of Christ from earthly Jerusalem in an earthly temple. The scripture is quite clear on this. Peter's comments refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Acts 7: 48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:49 ‘Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the Lord, Or what is the place of My rest? 50 Has My hand not made all these things?’

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