Not By Works
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E
John 6 said it is the work of God that we believe in him
It also says it is Gods will that everyone who sees and believes will live forever, never die, Has eternal life,
Did the theif on the cross fulfill those two things?
Oh, and his work, it was telling the other person that he was guilty and Jesus was not, and by doing so, he proved he had true saving faith in God. but he did not have to do that, jesus knew if his faith was real or not the fact jesus told him he had eternal life, was proof God accepted his faith, and credited to him as righteousness, just like he did abraham.
It also says it is Gods will that everyone who sees and believes will live forever, never die, Has eternal life,
Did the theif on the cross fulfill those two things?
Oh, and his work, it was telling the other person that he was guilty and Jesus was not, and by doing so, he proved he had true saving faith in God. but he did not have to do that, jesus knew if his faith was real or not the fact jesus told him he had eternal life, was proof God accepted his faith, and credited to him as righteousness, just like he did abraham.
E
No, it is not a requirement, The law demands requirments, Grace demands faith.
People who have true faith WILL have works. You evidently believe one can have faith and not have works.. Which tells me you do not understand what true faith is.
so instead of trying to learn what it means, You have it in your mind your going to earn salvation by your works, . Good luck..
We are counted as righteous not because of Christs righteousness but because of our
faith, like Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith.
Our behaviour needs to be blameless, but it is our relationship with the Father that
brings us righteousness.
The other view is Christs righteousness covers us, so God does not see our sin.
This leads to countless errors of relationship and belief.
We go from darkness into light because our sins are forgiven through the cross.
Christs righteousness makes this possible.
This is the reason for the dispute between Wesley and Whitefield, and the whole
discussion about future sin forgiven or we can walk righteously empowered by the Spirit.
It is a shift that Augustine started, that Luther and Calvin continued. But to be honest most
believers have no clue it even exists. It excuses failure and the struggle with our hearts and
our behaviour which Paul talks about in Romans 7.
Paul talks about the flesh dominating until he came to faith in Christ, and died with Christ,
and rose in the Spirit to victory over sin.
If you do not sin in the future, future sin forgiven is irrelevant but is actually a statement
of unbelief, because sin is too frivously defined and lived.
faith, like Abraham was counted righteous because of his faith.
Our behaviour needs to be blameless, but it is our relationship with the Father that
brings us righteousness.
The other view is Christs righteousness covers us, so God does not see our sin.
This leads to countless errors of relationship and belief.
We go from darkness into light because our sins are forgiven through the cross.
Christs righteousness makes this possible.
This is the reason for the dispute between Wesley and Whitefield, and the whole
discussion about future sin forgiven or we can walk righteously empowered by the Spirit.
It is a shift that Augustine started, that Luther and Calvin continued. But to be honest most
believers have no clue it even exists. It excuses failure and the struggle with our hearts and
our behaviour which Paul talks about in Romans 7.
Paul talks about the flesh dominating until he came to faith in Christ, and died with Christ,
and rose in the Spirit to victory over sin.
If you do not sin in the future, future sin forgiven is irrelevant but is actually a statement
of unbelief, because sin is too frivously defined and lived.
E
Falling (loss of salvation) is not the same as falling out of line, (prodigal son)
Why does that seem hard for people to understand this is the difference of what I am talking about?
Well unless you think you are perfect sinless (as some people here do) then you have to understand that you walk away from God on occasion, You fall into a sin pattern and realise it through Gods chastening, and make a commitment to start changing that habit in the power of God.
There are many reasons you may recommit.
Again, Your trying to account falling away with salvation, Who said it was salvation?
Are we saved by works, thats what you seem to be hinting at..
ie, I fall, I have to repent to get resaved, I fall, I have to repent to get resaved, I fall, I have to repent to get resaved.
see an issue here, this is what legalism teaches,
I never asked for my cake, and eat it too.
I never claimed one could lose salvation, Recommit does not mean the same as being resaved If I lost salvation, I would not recommit, I would ask God to save me again, because I lost mine.
Why does that seem hard for people to understand this is the difference of what I am talking about?
Well unless you think you are perfect sinless (as some people here do) then you have to understand that you walk away from God on occasion, You fall into a sin pattern and realise it through Gods chastening, and make a commitment to start changing that habit in the power of God.
There are many reasons you may recommit.
Again, Your trying to account falling away with salvation, Who said it was salvation?
Are we saved by works, thats what you seem to be hinting at..
ie, I fall, I have to repent to get resaved, I fall, I have to repent to get resaved, I fall, I have to repent to get resaved.
see an issue here, this is what legalism teaches,
I never asked for my cake, and eat it too.
I never claimed one could lose salvation, Recommit does not mean the same as being resaved If I lost salvation, I would not recommit, I would ask God to save me again, because I lost mine.
E
Wrong
Belief is a car without oil and gas, It has no faith, so it tries to add all kinds of things to the tank to get it to run, It may run for a bit, but eventually, it breaks down, because until you put the real gas in the tank, the car will never run right.
When you add the fuel (GOD, and the gospel) and learn to trust in it, the car goes. and does what it was created to do.
Yet again, You insert self where God needs to be inserted.
Belief is a car without oil and gas, It has no faith, so it tries to add all kinds of things to the tank to get it to run, It may run for a bit, but eventually, it breaks down, because until you put the real gas in the tank, the car will never run right.
When you add the fuel (GOD, and the gospel) and learn to trust in it, the car goes. and does what it was created to do.
Yet again, You insert self where God needs to be inserted.
Does the following talk about imputed righteousness?
Romans 3:21-26
God's Righteousness Through Faith
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 3:21-26
God's Righteousness Through Faith
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
E
I can see how you could intperpret that. I would disagree with them, for one the thief did have works, He called out and confessed Jesus was lord to the other thief.
I must ask, if you do not believe those were works. If the thief would have lived longer, would he have had works if he had true saving faith, or would he continued to live in sin, like some insinuate?
Funny.
I never read peter Jens call anyone a derogatory name.
Much as I hear from "your side".
Wonder why that is?
Wonder WHO is following the word of God?
He has called me every name in the book like - satanic, a lover of sinning, heretic, delusional, a hater of those that walk righteously, a hater of God's word and a hater of the words of Jesus....etc.
I asked him several times to stop this ungodly behavior but he kept at it - so unfortunately I had to put him on ignore and not interact with him anymore until there is repentance.
I think it so amusing that some of those that say we are to walk righteously and in purity of heart have some of the worse behavior I have ever witnessed among Christians. I don't see any difference between this sort of behavior and those Christians that say it's ok to live the homosexual lifestyle.
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Never called you a psychopath, but you seemed to want to take this to heart, so who
am I to deny a label you want to own.
What is funny is this accusation coming from someone who uses labels all the time
actual or implied. But then that is why if an example is given of a problem, you automatically
apply it to yourself because that is how you think when you are giving examples.
It should be assumed examples are just that, not aimed at any individual unless actually
applied to a person in particular. There was a time when people were more reluctant to
label so clearly, but now that seems to have gone out of the window.
And by the way I try not to name call, but rather describe how people come across.
So this continual accusation I used the psychopath example specific to you, is an
example of unsubstantiated slander. But then those who have no problem with slander
use these arguments all the time. But then maybe without a conscience, upsetting people
is just not an issue, or even sinning against them.
am I to deny a label you want to own.
What is funny is this accusation coming from someone who uses labels all the time
actual or implied. But then that is why if an example is given of a problem, you automatically
apply it to yourself because that is how you think when you are giving examples.
It should be assumed examples are just that, not aimed at any individual unless actually
applied to a person in particular. There was a time when people were more reluctant to
label so clearly, but now that seems to have gone out of the window.
And by the way I try not to name call, but rather describe how people come across.
So this continual accusation I used the psychopath example specific to you, is an
example of unsubstantiated slander. But then those who have no problem with slander
use these arguments all the time. But then maybe without a conscience, upsetting people
is just not an issue, or even sinning against them.
So who were the two witnesses that claimed Jesus said he would destroy the temple? I presume that they were referring when Jesus said no stone would be left upon stone but apparently there were two witnesses that rose up again him
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matt 26:60-61
So if these witnesses were testifying about Jesus claiming that no two stones would be left upon each other then wouldn't they be subject to death for giving false testimony under the OT law ( Deut 19:16-19 states)
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
So who were the two that could have testified against Jesus since there was nobody with Jesus except for disciples outside the temple when he spoke about the destruction of the temple.
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mark 10:35-40
Since Pharaoh sent Noah to the Americas and the NT speaks of the churches in Asia, yeah I would say all the known world.
Wonder what it meant in the OT wherein it is written, Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. Ex 22:28
Well, the days our of flesh are numbered the same as the days of those born of the dust of the ground, 120 years. Yet the dust gives up the spirit in their nostrils and the soul in the heart of the flesh shines on.
As you probably already know, Julius Caesar was the assassinated ruler of the Roman Republic and was granted the title posthumously of Divus Julius (Divine or Immortal Julius) by the Senate of the Roman Republic in 42 BC. I guess that would be like God-man to Christians.
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Matt 26:60-61
So if these witnesses were testifying about Jesus claiming that no two stones would be left upon each other then wouldn't they be subject to death for giving false testimony under the OT law ( Deut 19:16-19 states)
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
So who were the two that could have testified against Jesus since there was nobody with Jesus except for disciples outside the temple when he spoke about the destruction of the temple.
35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mark 10:35-40
Since Pharaoh sent Noah to the Americas and the NT speaks of the churches in Asia, yeah I would say all the known world.
Wonder what it meant in the OT wherein it is written, Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people. Ex 22:28
Well, the days our of flesh are numbered the same as the days of those born of the dust of the ground, 120 years. Yet the dust gives up the spirit in their nostrils and the soul in the heart of the flesh shines on.
As you probably already know, Julius Caesar was the assassinated ruler of the Roman Republic and was granted the title posthumously of Divus Julius (Divine or Immortal Julius) by the Senate of the Roman Republic in 42 BC. I guess that would be like God-man to Christians.
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E
I like to see it as we are all in a storm at sea. we will all perish if we are not rescued, because we can not save ourself
Then God comes, and offers to save us, But he will not force us to be saved, he asks us to want to.
Some do not think they need saved (they are blind) and reject his offer,
Some are too proud to give up their right so quickly, so thy say yes, God save me, when God tries, they add their own power in an attempt to save themselves (for any lifegaurd you know how dangerous this this, You can actually get killed if the person who is draowing does not completely relax and let you completely save him, so you must let them go, even if they die)
Some say yes lord, Save me, and do not fight or try to save themselves, Just let God do what God has to do.
When that person gets back to shore, he is indebted to the one who saved him, He trusts that person with his life, he will gladly and without work, honor that person and do things to puff that person up and give him glory (works)
Hebrews 12:28
Hebrews 12:1
Paul is speaking about those that came before.
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses
Rehab
These that were protected against fire, lions, swords,
These that came before were heroes, encouraging us to start running and to never stop.
Hebrews 12:1
We are to keep our eyes on Jesus who already ran the race and showed us how it is done. Jesus never took His eyes off the goal. He could put up with anything to get there...the cross, shame, whatever was necessary. And now He is with God in a place of Honor.
Hebrews 12:2
When we find ourselves failing in our faith, we are to remember His story, the tribulation he went through. This should encourage us.
Hebrews 12:3
God educates us with discipline. This is what good parents do. We should accept God's training because He is doing it for our own good.
Hebrews 12:4-8
God is training us to LIVE OUR HOLY BEST. it's the well-trained who find themselves to be well off with God.
Hebrews 12:9-11
So don't just sit around and do nothing. Get along well with each other and with God. Watch out for the ESAU SYNDROME...
Trading GOD'S LIFE-LONG GIFT, to satisfy a SHORT-TERM APPETITE. Esau later regretted his decision.
Hebrews 12:12-17
Unlike these ancestors, the new people of God did not go to Mr. Sinai but to Mt. Zion. THIS IS WHERE GOD LIVES.
The INVISIBLE JERUSALEM. It is full of people of God, Christian citizens. Here God is the judge. Jesus is the mediator of a New covenant. Unlike the murder of Abel, Jesus' Death became a cry for grace.
Hebrews 12:17-24
Do not refuse God who speaks. If we turn away from Him who speaks to us from heaven, it will be worse than having turned away from him who spoke from earth. God will give us one last shake, and one thing cannot be shaken (the Kingdom).
Hebrews 12:25-27
Therefore be happy that we are rceiving a Kingdom that cannot be shaken. We must be thankful, worshipping and revering God with awe. God is Always cleaning house and he will burn everything until all is clean. God Himself is fire.
Hebrews 12:28
Hebrews 12:1
Paul is speaking about those that came before.
Abraham
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses
Rehab
These that were protected against fire, lions, swords,
These that came before were heroes, encouraging us to start running and to never stop.
Hebrews 12:1
We are to keep our eyes on Jesus who already ran the race and showed us how it is done. Jesus never took His eyes off the goal. He could put up with anything to get there...the cross, shame, whatever was necessary. And now He is with God in a place of Honor.
Hebrews 12:2
When we find ourselves failing in our faith, we are to remember His story, the tribulation he went through. This should encourage us.
Hebrews 12:3
God educates us with discipline. This is what good parents do. We should accept God's training because He is doing it for our own good.
Hebrews 12:4-8
God is training us to LIVE OUR HOLY BEST. it's the well-trained who find themselves to be well off with God.
Hebrews 12:9-11
So don't just sit around and do nothing. Get along well with each other and with God. Watch out for the ESAU SYNDROME...
Trading GOD'S LIFE-LONG GIFT, to satisfy a SHORT-TERM APPETITE. Esau later regretted his decision.
Hebrews 12:12-17
Unlike these ancestors, the new people of God did not go to Mr. Sinai but to Mt. Zion. THIS IS WHERE GOD LIVES.
The INVISIBLE JERUSALEM. It is full of people of God, Christian citizens. Here God is the judge. Jesus is the mediator of a New covenant. Unlike the murder of Abel, Jesus' Death became a cry for grace.
Hebrews 12:17-24
Do not refuse God who speaks. If we turn away from Him who speaks to us from heaven, it will be worse than having turned away from him who spoke from earth. God will give us one last shake, and one thing cannot be shaken (the Kingdom).
Hebrews 12:25-27
Therefore be happy that we are rceiving a Kingdom that cannot be shaken. We must be thankful, worshipping and revering God with awe. God is Always cleaning house and he will burn everything until all is clean. God Himself is fire.
Hebrews 12:28
EG,
If you follow the little quote marks, you'll find that Ariel made the original statement.
Then you answered to it and I answered you and that's how it got mixed up.
BTW, who are you going to report me to?
If you report me, all the more should I report Dcon.
We could start acting like Kindergarteners, we're not far off anyway...
I quote scripture and I quote theology --- the study of God.
It is what it is. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but what I post is what theologians say, not what I "think".
If you follow the little quote marks, you'll find that Ariel made the original statement.
Then you answered to it and I answered you and that's how it got mixed up.
BTW, who are you going to report me to?
If you report me, all the more should I report Dcon.
We could start acting like Kindergarteners, we're not far off anyway...
I quote scripture and I quote theology --- the study of God.
It is what it is. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but what I post is what theologians say, not what I "think".