B
Burninglight
Guest
You seem to have a very good handle on doctrine my friend. it is rare to find. I don't think I've found anything you said I disagree with for the most part.
The Rapture
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What will happen to those who deny the pretrib theory, if it turns out they are wrong. The rapture happens and you're still standing there? How many of you will continue to follow Jesus? How many will fall away? I would much rather believe in a pretrib rapture and be ready than to think there is more time and not be ready. I believe in pretrib. Why? I do not follow the teachings of commentaries. Matthew Henry or any of the others.. I follow what I read in the Word. I know nothing of any book written in the 1800s to keep a pope happy. Frankly I'm not interested in those books. I see scriptures that line up with a pretrib rapture..No scriptures to indicate a mid trib rapture and scriptures that describe the second coming of Jesus. So....If you have a problem ....suck it up. LOL
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Ok, so the Gog and Magog war is still future. Does that include the white throne judgment and a resurrection?
Not quite sure what you're looking for here. I believe that the bride is about to be caught up, then the one we call the Antichrist will be made known by his ratifying a contract with the Jews to build their temple and resume the sacrifice. then three and a half years later, he breaks that contract and sets himself up as God, with all the chaos that follows, then again, three and a half years later, Jesus returns....That's what I believe.
If you want my proofs
The rapture of the faithful in contrast to the Revelation of Jesus at His coming
Christ comes for His own 1Th 4:13-18 --------------------Christ returns with His own Rev 19:14
Believers taken to Father's House Joh 14:3 ----------------Believers come with Jesus to Earth Mat 24:30
He is seen only by believers 1Co 15:52 --------------------Every eye will see Him Mat 24:30
Earth not judged -----------------------------------------------Earth judged Rev 20:4-5
A Mystery - 1 Co 15:51 --------------------------------------Foretold in OT Zech 12:10
Christians taken first 1Th 4:13-18 3 Mat 13:28-30 -------Wicked are taken first Mat 25:1-13; Rev 3:8-10; Rev 4:1,
He comes to present the Church to Himself 2 Co 11:2 ---He comes with His Church for judgment and to set up his Kingdom Rev 19:6-9, Zec 14:3-4; Jud 1:14-15; Rev 19:11-21
Casts Satan out of heaven to earth Rev 12 ------------------Binds Satan for a thousand years Rev 20
Occurs in the twinkling of an eye 1Co 15:52---------------Comes to earth to do battle at specific locations Isa 63:1-3, Rev 16:16, Zec 12:9-10
Jesus descends with a shout. 1Th 4:16 8 --------------------No shout mentioned Rev 19:11-21
[h=2]Sixteen scriptural proofs that the rapture is pre-tribulation *[/h] Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1).
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1).
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the Church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "Church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
**Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14).
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10).
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46).
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium
So you divide up the seventy sevens of Daniel between sixty nine consecutive sevens and one seven long afterwards? That invalidates all that you say from the start. Whatever they refer to the seventy sevens are consecutive.
Luke 21:24 KJV
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Has this his been fulfilled or no? Will the Jews be led away captive into all nations again during the tribulation? Also is there a 2nd time of the gentiles during the tribulation?
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Has this his been fulfilled or no? Will the Jews be led away captive into all nations again during the tribulation? Also is there a 2nd time of the gentiles during the tribulation?
Well if we are going preach about the tribulation, we should use all tribulation verses... and they should all agree.
Matthew 24:22-23 KJV
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
After the tribulation has been shortened, Then the false Christs come in the scene... does that a mean the antichrist doesn't come on the scene until the great tribulation is over?
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
After the tribulation has been shortened, Then the false Christs come in the scene... does that a mean the antichrist doesn't come on the scene until the great tribulation is over?
Listen. D-o-u-b-l-e P-r-o-p-h-e-cy
Sometimes prophecies have dual fulfilment. Such as Isaiah 7:14 and other passages like that.
Sometimes prophecies have dual fulfilment. Such as Isaiah 7:14 and other passages like that.
Well if we are going preach about the tribulation, we should use all tribulation verses... and they should all agree.
Well.....We agree......on that. LOL
What's the dual prophecy of Isaiah 7:14?
Isaiah 7:14 KJV
[14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
I've heard many 7 year tribbers say the woman in Rev 12 is Israel because of the usage of sun moon and stars in the verse. I'm curious to know if those who believe this also believe the verse below is talking about Israel too... is this verse Israel?
Matthew 24:29 KJV
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:29 KJV
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So you believe there is a tribulation, but its not going to be for certain amount of time? Or do you think the time of Jacob's trouble is past?
It is a reference to Ezekiel 32
7 [FONT="]And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
[/FONT][FONT="]When the old covenant ended, national Israel became like Egypt, the land of bondage.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
There has always been tribulation, but there was a time of great tribulation for Israel in AD 70 and this was the time of Jacobs trouble. I'm not sure who long that lasted.
B
Burninglight
Guest
What would happen to you when you find yourself in the middle of great tribulation? You are following and believing in commentaries, because that is what led to the pretribulation teachings. read 2 Thes, 2 and you'll see that Paul warns that you not be deceived with the imminent return of Christ because certain things have to happen first.
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