Sabbath

[gotime]

Be like the noble Berean's who searched the Old testament to see if the things Paul taught were true.

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Scriptures mentioned here are the Old Testament, They did not search Paul's letters or Luke's testimony they searched the Scriptures/OT

So go on search them you will find no teaching that backs up the popular teaching on the Sabbath being changed or different. It a human tradition and nothing more.

As it is written:

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Oh just for emphasis:

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Yes it comes from the Old testament.

 

[beta]

Be like the noble Berean's who searched the Old testament to see if the things Paul taught were true.

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Scriptures mentioned here are the Old Testament, They did not search Paul's letters or Luke's testimony they searched the Scriptures/OT

So go on search them you will find no teaching that backs up the popular teaching on the Sabbath being changed or different. It a human tradition and nothing more.

As it is written:

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Oh just for emphasis:

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Yes it comes from the Old testament.

Want to let you know how much I appreciate your posts !
Honouring the sabbath is a lifeline to people who are lost in shipwreck...if only they could see it. It helps us find the 'one true God among the many imposters, see Ex 31v13...scripture can not be clearer. Spending time with a Holy God is a 'privilege and honour which JESUS upheld all His lifetime on earth. It is hard to understand why people reject it while claiming to have His Spirit. I hope they come to their senses soon and be spared the consequences of disobedience.

 

[Rainrider]

Its interesting that one of the goals of the disciples was to reach the Jewish community as well as the gentiles. Paul speaks much on his desire for the Jews to come to a knowledge of Scripture.

In order to reach a Jew you must be able to prove your point from the scriptures. For a Jew that is the Old Testament, While we today accept the new testament as scripture also this was not so for Jews then or today and it was not so even for the disciples. The new testament was simply letters and testimonies that the prophecies of the messiah had come true in Jesus and that letters were the disciples mostly Paul trying to show the truth by way of the Old Testament. Thus they constantly quote the Old Testament to back up any teaching they make.

I can teach the change of temple form the Old Testament.
I can teach the change of circumcision and its true meaning form the Old Testament.
I can teach the new covenant from the Old Testament.
I can teach that sacrifices would cease from the Old Testament.
I can teach that the priesthood would change form the Old testament.
But you know that you can not teach that the 10 commandments would cease or change in the Old Testament.
You can not teach that God would change the 7th day Sabbath.

But you can teach that the 7th day Sabbath will continue in heaven from the Old Testament
You can teach that the 7th day Sabbath is for Gentiles also in the Old Testament.
You can also teach that the 7th day Sabbath would continue after the messiah came from the Old Testament.

Because like Paul taught:

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul was Talking to Timothy who grew up on the Old testament as scripture. Paul said all this about the Old Testament.

Jesus proved who he was by the Old Testament:

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

If you can't establish your point form the Old Testament then your point is private interpretation. If you think you can prove your point from the new but not the old then you have simply made a private interpretation that makes one witness of God disagree with another witness of God.

The Old testament is the scriptures, The new is a witness to their/the OT accuracy and to them being the word of God and true and trustworthy.

Yet take note that they can not teach their view of the 7th day Sabbath by the scripture of the OT. Thus they pit the second witness against the first.

One thing we must always keep in mind. Paul, and everyone they spoke to, didn't have what we call the NT. SO if anyone wishes to say Paul said the Law was nailed to the cross, first they need to find how that fits into the only scripture they had. After all, if one was to teach out side of their scripture, they most likely would have been stoned. Also in Act's 21, Paul not only tells them he didn't teach against the Law, he shows it with action.

 

[Rainrider]

Statements made by the Roman Catholic Church about the Sabbath
“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it
transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change
was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its
teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome’s Challenge immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.
“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not
the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from
Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures
enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”
— James Cardinal Gibbons,
The Faith of Our
Fathers
(1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).
“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Chri
st or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed
from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is
the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians
keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the
[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”
—
Catholic Virginian
, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

 

[beta]

Statements made by the Roman Catholic Church about the Sabbath
“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it
transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change
was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its
teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome’s Challenge immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.
“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not
the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from
Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures
enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”
— James Cardinal Gibbons,
The Faith of Our
Fathers
(1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).
“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Chri
st or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed
from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is
the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians
keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the
[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”
—
Catholic Virginian
, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

May I just bring up a point you made that the sabbath command came through Moses. I believe that when God spoke personally to the people assembled it was a rather more intimate communication than Moses presenting the tablets of stone prior to the event at Sinai where God was refused to be heard any more, only Moses. Ex 20v19; Deut 5v22;...it was a direct snub to God that has come down through the ages to this day.
Lumping the 10 Com GOD spoke personally with the com that were given through Moses is a *grave* mistake that will cost lives. God expects us to 'put difference between holy and unholy - (works and moral) Lev 10v10.
People are accusing me of making this separation when it's clearly shown that GOD Himself does that, for it shows the difference between the ETERNAL Commandments of God and WORK com of Moses abolished by Jesus Eph 2v15. Col2v14. Rom7v12 speaking of the Com of God.
The reason people can not make that distinction is because they refuse to hear GOD and REPENT of their rebellion, submit to God and die to self ! very humbling !
How read you, what do you say ?

 

[beta]

One thing we must always keep in mind. Paul, and everyone they spoke to, didn't have what we call the NT. SO if anyone wishes to say Paul said the Law was nailed to the cross, first they need to find how that fits into the only scripture they had. After all, if one was to teach out side of their scripture, they most likely would have been stoned. Also in Act's 21, Paul not only tells them he didn't teach against the Law, he shows it with action.

Paul (bless him) did not always make it clear just which law he was talking about - that through Moses or that by God Himself as seen from Ex 20. God was cut OFF after giving 10, but that does not negate the fact that HE DID give them ! but only few hear Him. We know that Jesus kept them incl the sabbath - and scripture tells us to 'Hear Him, God's beloved Son !

 

[beta]

Paul (bless him) did not always make it clear just which law he was talking about - that through Moses or that by God Himself as seen from Ex 20. God was cut OFF after giving 10, but that does not negate the fact that HE DID give them ! but only few hear Him. We know that Jesus kept them incl the sabbath - and scripture tells us to 'Hear Him, God's beloved Son !

We know that Paul was to bring people to Christ 1Cor 11v1 and when we are IN CHRIST we follow HIM....Paul's mission is accomplished.
Now we follow Jesus and HIS law of love to God and neighbour detailed in the 10 and never outside of His Fathers moral law (without law)...or they will hear the dreaded words Mat 7v23; 2Tim 2v5.
We need to learn to obey, it's part of our salvation Heb 5v9,8.

 

[Grace777x70]

If Paul is telling us the truth when he says the Christian is not under the Law but under grace now, has died to the Law, is released from the Law.

( Which I do believe he is telling us the truth ). - Then how is our relationship to be to the law in regards to the "good" that is in the ten commandments from the Old Covenant?

Live "from" the 10 promises instead of "by" the 10 commandments because we are now in Christ in the New Covenant. It's in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace of God which manifests His life in and through us that we live by now.

1) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will have no need for other gods because you have a loving Father who loves you deeply and unconditionally.

2) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in you the idols in life will fade like mist in the sun.

3) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will never stop speaking My name to establish freedom - My name is Jesus.

4) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will cease from your own works and rely totally on what I have already done for you and find true Sabbath rest in Me.

5) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will be honored as fathers and mothers to nations.

6) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you,you will restore life.

7) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will experience deep authentic relationships which you will treasure.

8) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be established in abundance and generosity.

9) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be My witness.

10) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, your love which is My love flowing in and through you for your neighbor will bring restoration to this world.

The 10 commandments are now 10 promises fulfilled in us through relationship with our loving Father because we are in Christ and the fruit of His life being manifested in and through us.

 

[J7]

Paul calls legalism witchcraft. Witchcraft is rebellion

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

i.e. you are rejecting Christ's authority over sin

 

[Grandpa]

ok you quote

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

But what law is here being spoken of, Is it the 10 commandments? No. Notice what it says:

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, This is talking about the work of the levitical priesthood which came before or after the 10 commandments?

Correct after the 10 commandments. It is the levitical law which is found in the book of Leviticus. That law was concerning the priests form the tribe of Levi thus the reason it says:

"what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?"

That is really either dishonest or just dumb.

Hebrews 7:11 [FONT=&quot]If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, [/FONT][FONT=&quot](for under it the people received the law,)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?[/FONT]

For under it the people received the law. The People didn't receive the law that governed the Levites... They received all the law. Starting with the 10 commandments.

Now we know that the priests were to minister for those who had broken the law of God the 10 commandments. But now that the priesthood has changed the law concerning the priesthood must also change. Thus this verse:

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Again either dishonest or just dumb.

Its circular reasoning to say that the law that governed the Levites changed because the Lord wasn't from that tribe. So the only thing that needed to be changed was this exception...??? No, no, no... Gross Conceptual Error.

There HAD to be a reason that the Priesthood was changed. And the reason for it was a NEW Way. A change in the Way that Gods People come to Him and Worship Him.

Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

how is this evident? because the scriptures of the Old testament teach this as quoted later here:

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

That is how they knew the Old testament shows that the one who would come is going to be a priest but from a different order than Aaron"s. So Hebrews teaches the change form scripture not just their own private interpretation, they have evidence form Gods word in the Old Testament that this is the case. You have zero evidence that the Sabbath has changed thus you can't show it from the Old Testament.

As mostly is the case, your focus is on the wrong thing....

What is far more evident? Not that the Lord arises after the similitude of Melchisidec. What is far more evident TO CHRISTIANS is that The Lord Has made a Way that is not after a Carnal Commandment but after the Power of an endless life.


Matthew 11:28 [FONT=&quot]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The Lord is relieving us of our work at a carnal commandment. How can He do that? Because the Priesthood being changed there is of necessity a change also of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

This is the Rest that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us. His Holy Spirit. The NEW Testament. The Ministration of Righteousness and Eternal Life.

So now, for Christians, we don't follow after a Carnal Commandment, we don't follow after the Ministration of Death or the Ministration of Condemnation. We follow after what the Lord Jesus Has Changed and that is the Ministration of Righteousness and Eternal Life. The Ministration of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

If your mind is blinded and you haven't been to Christ then you have no other choice, no other understanding, but to work at the law in the OT.

If you have been to Christ and you continue at working at the carnal commandment are you just foolish? Can you not work it out? Are you better off with your work and your understanding or the Lords Work and His Understanding?[/FONT]

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

As far as Sabbath keeping goes,.......

Hebrews 4
"therefore it remains for some to enter it",

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

If Paul is telling us the truth when he says the Christian is not under the Law but under grace now, has died to the Law, is released from the Law.

( Which I do believe he is telling us the truth ). - Then how is our relationship to be to the law in regards to the "good" that is in the ten commandments from the Old Covenant?

Live "from" the 10 promises instead of "by" the 10 commandments because we are now in Christ in the New Covenant. It's in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace of God which manifests His life in and through us that we live by now.

1) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will have no need for other gods because you have a loving Father who loves you deeply and unconditionally.

2) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in you the idols in life will fade like mist in the sun.

3) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will never stop speaking My name to establish freedom - My name is Jesus.

4) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will cease from your own works and rely totally on what I have already done for you and find true Sabbath rest in Me.

5) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will be honored as fathers and mothers to nations.

6) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you,you will restore life.

7) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will experience deep authentic relationships which you will treasure.

8) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be established in abundance and generosity.

9) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be My witness.

10) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, your love which is My love flowing in and through you for your neighbor will bring restoration to this world.

The 10 commandments are now 10 promises fulfilled in us through relationship with our loving Father because we are in Christ and the fruit of His life being manifested in and through us.

Generally speaking, as far as the presupposition of the antithesis between law and grace in Dispinsationalism, which nullifies the authority of the Bible goes.......

The presuppositions of the system itself are rarely measured according to God’s Word. Thus to those who espouse it, the theological system itself and its presuppositions easily becomes the absolute authority. It must be noted, however, that not all dispensationalists live out dispensationalism as the system itself is written and there is a wide variety among dispensationalists. Nevertheless, what is said here generally applies.
To correct the presupposition that the present time is the dispensation of grace over and against the time from Mt. Sinai to the cross, it must be stated Biblically that the Law of God always stands as normative and absolute in the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. In fact, the Law is a synonym for the whole written word of God in many places (e.g., Ps. 1 and 119). Sin, in the Bible, from cover to cover, “is the transgression of the Law” (I Jn. 3:4). Every departure from God’s written word, whether great or small, known or unknown, intended or accidental, is sin. “I had not known sin, but by the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet” (Rom. 7:7). For “Christians” to declare the death of Christ solely as an exhibition of God’s love to mankind is to hold a theological system as normative rather than God’s law which is His written Word, as normative.

"Generally speaking, in Dispensationalism the presupposition of the antithesis between law and grace nullifies the authority of the Bible."

SOURCE

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Grandpa]

As far as Sabbath keeping goes,.......

Hebrews 4
"therefore it remains for some to enter it",

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.



Generally speaking, as far as the presupposition of the antithesis between law and grace in Dispinsationalism, which nullifies the authority of the Bible goes.......

The presuppositions of the system itself are rarely measured according to God’s Word. Thus to those who espouse it, the theological system itself and its presuppositions easily becomes the absolute authority. It must be noted, however, that not all dispensationalists live out dispensationalism as the system itself is written and there is a wide variety among dispensationalists. Nevertheless, what is said here generally applies.
To correct the presupposition that the present time is the dispensation of grace over and against the time from Mt. Sinai to the cross, it must be stated Biblically that the Law of God always stands as normative and absolute in the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. In fact, the Law is a synonym for the whole written word of God in many places (e.g., Ps. 1 and 119). Sin, in the Bible, from cover to cover, “is the transgression of the Law” (I Jn. 3:4). Every departure from God’s written word, whether great or small, known or unknown, intended or accidental, is sin. “I had not known sin, but by the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet” (Rom. 7:7). For “Christians” to declare the death of Christ solely as an exhibition of God’s love to mankind is to hold a theological system as normative rather than God’s law which is His written Word, as normative.

"Generally speaking, in Dispensationalism the presupposition of the antithesis between law and grace nullifies the authority of the Bible."

SOURCE

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The confusion, as I see it, is not the antitheses between law and grace but between Our Work at the Law and the Work of Christ in us.

What is more able to fulfill the Law, our work or the Work of Christ in us? That's an easy one...

What is more able to make us Righteous, our work or the Work of Christ in us? Should be another easy one...

How do we enter in to the Kingdom of God, by our work or the Work of Christ in us? I could probably go on and on but I think its clear enough...

 

[beta]

As far as Sabbath keeping goes,.......

Hebrews 4
"therefore it remains for some to enter it",

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.



Generally speaking, as far as the presupposition of the antithesis between law and grace in Dispinsationalism, which nullifies the authority of the Bible goes.......

The presuppositions of the system itself are rarely measured according to God’s Word. Thus to those who espouse it, the theological system itself and its presuppositions easily becomes the absolute authority. It must be noted, however, that not all dispensationalists live out dispensationalism as the system itself is written and there is a wide variety among dispensationalists. Nevertheless, what is said here generally applies.
To correct the presupposition that the present time is the dispensation of grace over and against the time from Mt. Sinai to the cross, it must be stated Biblically that the Law of God always stands as normative and absolute in the Bible from Genesis through Revelation. In fact, the Law is a synonym for the whole written word of God in many places (e.g., Ps. 1 and 119). Sin, in the Bible, from cover to cover, “is the transgression of the Law” (I Jn. 3:4). Every departure from God’s written word, whether great or small, known or unknown, intended or accidental, is sin. “I had not known sin, but by the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet” (Rom. 7:7). For “Christians” to declare the death of Christ solely as an exhibition of God’s love to mankind is to hold a theological system as normative rather than God’s law which is His written Word, as normative.

"Generally speaking, in Dispensationalism the presupposition of the antithesis between law and grace nullifies the authority of the Bible."

SOURCE

Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

As we see from a very recent post people today feel justified to formulate their own laws/commandments. Scripture clearly says that JESUS kept His Fathers commandments...
now IF we are being conformed to the image of Christ we too would say the same thing !!!

 

[gotime]

That is really either dishonest or just dumb.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

For under it the people received the law. The People didn't receive the law that governed the Levites... They received all the law. Starting with the 10 commandments.

Again either dishonest or just dumb.

Its circular reasoning to say that the law that governed the Levites changed because the Lord wasn't from that tribe. So the only thing that needed to be changed was this exception...??? No, no, no... Gross Conceptual Error.

There HAD to be a reason that the Priesthood was changed. And the reason for it was a NEW Way. A change in the Way that Gods People come to Him and Worship Him.


As mostly is the case, your focus is on the wrong thing....

What is far more evident? Not that the Lord arises after the similitude of Melchisidec. What is far more evident TO CHRISTIANS is that The Lord Has made a Way that is not after a Carnal Commandment but after the Power of an endless life.


Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

The Lord is relieving us of our work at a carnal commandment. How can He do that? Because the Priesthood being changed there is of necessity a change also of the law.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

This is the Rest that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us. His Holy Spirit. The NEW Testament. The Ministration of Righteousness and Eternal Life.

So now, for Christians, we don't follow after a Carnal Commandment, we don't follow after the Ministration of Death or the Ministration of Condemnation. We follow after what the Lord Jesus Has Changed and that is the Ministration of Righteousness and Eternal Life. The Ministration of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

If your mind is blinded and you haven't been to Christ then you have no other choice, no other understanding, but to work at the law in the OT.

If you have been to Christ and you continue at working at the carnal commandment are you just foolish? Can you not work it out? Are you better off with your work and your understanding or the Lords Work and His Understanding?

You just called Paul or whoever wrote Hebrews either dishonest or dumb. your problem is you don't know the OT of Which the author of Hebrews derives his evidence for his point. You talk a lot but never offer evidence form the OT for your point. You do not follow the way of the Apostles and Jesus as they used the OT to make their point. They did not testify against the OT but showed that they taught the truth that the OT taught. The problem the Jews had is similar to your problem.

They had a veil over their eyes when reading the OT so they did not See Christ. You simply don't know the OT so you don't understand what the NT is talking about. That is why the difference between you and me.

I use both the NT and the OT because they are in harmony.

You Pretty much only use the NT because you don't know the OT.

How are you going to teach when you don't know the OT of which the NT gives witness to?

 

[gotime]

PS Grandpa, Words are cheap prove your point above form the OT. Or else you have nothing but private interpretation and a manipulation of the NT. The second witness does not go against the first witness. Hebrews 7 uses the OT to make its point which you fail to acknowledge and change the whole meaning that is plain to see.

 

[Rainrider]

May I just bring up a point you made that the sabbath command came through Moses. I believe that when God spoke personally to the people assembled it was a rather more intimate communication than Moses presenting the tablets of stone prior to the event at Sinai where God was refused to be heard any more, only Moses. Ex 20v19; Deut 5v22;...it was a direct snub to God that has come down through the ages to this day.
Lumping the 10 Com GOD spoke personally with the com that were given through Moses is a *grave* mistake that will cost lives. God expects us to 'put difference between holy and unholy - (works and moral) Lev 10v10.
People are accusing me of making this separation when it's clearly shown that GOD Himself does that, for it shows the difference between the ETERNAL Commandments of God and WORK com of Moses abolished by Jesus Eph 2v15. Col2v14. Rom7v12 speaking of the Com of God.
The reason people can not make that distinction is because they refuse to hear GOD and REPENT of their rebellion, submit to God and die to self ! very humbling !
How read you, what do you say ?

I really don't believe I ever said that. Any one that knows the Troah will tell you that Shabbot came on the 7th day. As stated,
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when he rested from all his work of creation.

So I kind of think you are replying to the wrong person.

 

[Rainrider]

Paul (bless him) did not always make it clear just which law he was talking about - that through Moses or that by God Himself as seen from Ex 20. God was cut OFF after giving 10, but that does not negate the fact that HE DID give them ! but only few hear Him. We know that Jesus kept them incl the sabbath - and scripture tells us to 'Hear Him, God's beloved Son !

It is my understanding that all Laws are give BY HaShem. They are all His laws, and not one came from any other. So I a bit lost as to why this would be any kind of issue at all. Beside my comment had nothing to do with were a law came from, rather that if one wishes to say Paul spoke agents the Law, they need to find a way to back that from the OT.
What ever though.

 

[gotime]

So back to Hebrews 7 for what it is actually saying,

It is clearly talking about he law of priesthood which says:

Num 8:19 And I have given the Levites as a gift to Aaron and to his sons from among the children of Israel, to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation, and to make an atonement for the children of Israel: that there be no plague among the children of Israel, when the children of Israel come nigh unto the sanctuary.

The description of their work is best seen in the book of Leviticus. Leviticus 8 is about the dedication of Aaron and his sons as priests.

One could say much more on this but the Law is clear that the Priesthood was Held by Aaron and his sons and the Levites were given to Aaron to serve in the temple work of redemption.

Hebrews makes the point that there has been a change of priesthood. Now to a Jew this is impossible if one reads the OT with a veil over their eyes. The law says God chose Aaron and his sons and the tribe of Levi to minister in the tabernacle. SO naturally the Author of Hebrews has to offer some evidence form the scripture that this is so. Some proof from the OT that the priesthood would change. And rightly so, we should never accept someones teachings unless they are backed up by the scriptures.

The author of Hebrews does exactly that, they are not made up they are in the scripture. So He begins in chapter 5 to establish his proof that this is so.

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

so Here the Author establishes that the Messiah would come and He by the will of God would be a priest forever but not of the order of Aaron but rather of Melchizedek. The OT spoke of a change of the law concerning the priesthood.

SO then all the author does in between these things is show that Jesus is the Messiah and thus the new and better priest who offered himself as a sacrifice and now lives and lives forever the new priest.

But he does not stop there he goes on in chapter 8 to make a point that this priest/Jesus also has a temple he ministers in:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

notice again he uses the OT to make his point:

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
Exo 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

God gave Moses a pattern to copy, it says in Hebrews that it was a shadow of the heavenly temple.

Here he spells it out again:

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

So then what happens to the law in general?

Notice the Author again uses the OT to show what happens to the law:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

This is quoted form here:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now we know what happens to the law it is placed in the heart and minds of the people. Note there is no indication anywhere wither here nor in the OT that Gods law has changed other than it is now in the heart and mind of the people. The covenant has changed but not the law. You may say are they not one and the same? Well no, a covenant is a promise this promise is just better thus the old promise is dissapering in light of the new promise. The old promise dissapeared because as the author said in Hebrews 8 they did not continue in Gods promise/covenant. Thus God abandoned them to their choice but made a new promise through Jeremiah that He would take his laws and write them in their hearts. The same God who wrote on stone would now write on the heart.

Keep in mind the role of a priest is to minister for those who sin/break Gods law. There is still the ark of the covenant in the heavenly which was the true the earthly temple was a copy.

John actually saw it when he had his vision of the last days:

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

The testimony is the 10 commandments.

Exo 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
Exo 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel.

So John sees the ark in the temple in heaven right at the end with the testimony/10 commandments. And indeed anyone that has studied the OT knows that the reason a priest is needed is to minister for those who have broken the law and then repented thus the minister/priest ministers forgiveness for them. Sorry for length tried to keep it short, so did not quote everything one could quote.

But note the OT agrees with the NT and The NT derives its proof from the OT. This is for those who are interested.

 

[gotime]

Just decided to do something to understand. I checked over the posts that have come through against my position and as I thought there is almost no reference to the OT at all. No wonder we clash I am talking with people who don't know the word of God. No wonder the NT is so abused. This has been great for my understanding, I wish I had seen it a lot earlier.

 

[beta]

Statements made by the Roman Catholic Church about the Sabbath
“Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of worship. The Catholic Church protests that it
transferred Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that to try to argue that the change
was made in the Bible is both dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to base its
teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.” — Rome’s Challenge immaculateheart.com/maryonline Dec 2003.
“Is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not
the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from
Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures
enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”
— James Cardinal Gibbons,
The Faith of Our
Fathers
(1917 edition), p. 72-73 (16th Edition, p 111; 88th Edition, p. 89).
“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Chri
st or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed
from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is
the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians
keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the
[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”
—
Catholic Virginian
, October 3, 1947, p. 9, article “To Tell You the Truth.”

I have no wish to start an arguement---just clarify something you say above
>>>We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the sabbath day....<<<
Wasn't that commandment given to the PEOPLE ASSEMBLED personally by God Ex 20v8; Deut 5v22 Moses was in the assembly with the people and God spoke to ALL of them - not only Moses.
So it is not quite right to say that 'the commandment to keep Sabbath holy'' was only through Moses....for GOD gave it 'to all the people assembled.'
This is an important point needs to be clarified....because seeing it as coming through Moses will abolish it with all other commandments contained in ordinances/works Eph 2v15. and this is what christians have done, that's why they don't keep it and only hear Moses...still today as G777insists.
It's not as if they 'could not hear God then - because they said they did Deut 5v24 but that they REFUSE to hear Him AGAIN v25,...so it is a personal decision and choice to not hear God - rebellion in fact - which they have to repent of before being allowed by God to move on.