The Rapture

[VCO]

Well I am glad you have established to your own satisfaction that you are right.

Personally I think v35 onwards refer to the Caesars, and the Emperor Cult.

Julius Caesar declared himself Supreme God.

The real ANTICHRIST will make Julius Caesar look like a mouse. Apparently you cannot imagine the Ultimate Evil Dictator. Remember the prophecies say the Ultimate Dictator will DECEIVE the multitudes by the miracles that he does. I do not remember reading anything that said the Caesars did miracles.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (YLT)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God--the day doth not come.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder --till he may be out of the way,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] him, whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] that they may be judged--all who did not believe the truth, but were well pleased in the unrighteousness.

 

[Bookends]

Jesus did not say I will build my CHURCH,

He said, "I will build my ASSEMBLY." (LOOK IT UP.)

The very same thing HE called O.T. True Believers with the Faith of Abraham. (LOOK IT UP.)

We will become ONE FLOCK with ONE SHEPHERD at the RAPTURE.

Assembly and Church are basically the same thing, both mean gathering, I'm not concerned with this small technicality. Strange theology you got there, If Christ is the head and we are the body as Paul describes it - sounds like we are connected now, spiritually speaking. All in Christ are one flock now, there aren't two flocks of God...Always been one flock.

 

[VCO]

Assembly and Church are basically the same thing, both mean gathering, I'm not concerned with this small technicality. Strange theology you got there, If Christ is the head and we are the body as Paul describes it - sounds like we are connected now, spiritually speaking. All in Christ are one flock now, there aren't two flocks of God...Always been one flock.

NO, Church refers to N.T. Saints ONLY, while ASSEMBLY refers to both O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints.


John 10:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.



THERE ARE TWO FOLDS, that will become ONE FLOCK at the Rapture. The birthday of the Church is not until Pentecost after HIS Resurrection. So Jesus is talking to the LAST of the O.T. Fold. WE are the other Fold yet future when He said the above. AFTER HE HAS BROUGHT THE LAST OF THE Church Fold in. THEN at the Rapture they all become ONE FLOCK.

O.T. Saints believed GOD would sent a Messiah to redeem them from their sins.

N.T. Saints believed GOD did sent a Messiah to redeem them from their sins.


IT IS THE SAME FAITH, the Faith of Abraham.

The Purpose of the LAW was to make them aware that they NEEDED a Messiah.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law,because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

 

[VCO]

Popeye's last post

" Even so,come Lord Jesus"

Lord,don't let me miss the rapture.....amen

Fading

Fading

Fading


Pooof

LOL

Careful Popeye, you do not want to be part of this group:


2 Peter 3:3-4 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

 

[VCO]

Show me 1 place in the Bible where Beriyth means anything other than a Covenant between God and Man please

Genesis 21:27-33 (NRSV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] So Abraham took sheep and oxen and gave them to Abimelech, and the two men made a covenant <H1285> berith.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Abraham set apart seven ewe lambs of the flock.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And Abimelech said to Abraham, "What is the meaning of these seven ewe lambs that you have set apart?"
[SUP]30 [/SUP] He said, "These seven ewe lambs you shall accept from my hand, in order that you may be a witness for me that I dug this well."
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Therefore that place was called Beer-sheba; because there both of them swore an oath.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] When they had made a covenant <H1285> berith at Beer-sheba, Abimelech, with Phicol the commander of his army, left and returned to the land of the Philistines.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.

Genesis 31:44 (NASB)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] "So now come, let us make a covenant <H1285> berith, you and I, and let it be a witness between you and me."

Exodus 34:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] "Watch yourself that you make no covenant <H1285> berith with the inhabitants of the land into which you are going, or it will become a snare in your midst.

Deuteronomy 7:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant <H1285> berith {peace treaty} with them and show no favor to them.

Joshua 9:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] They went to Joshua to the camp at Gilgal and said to him and to the men of Israel, "We have come from a far country; now therefore, make a covenant <H1285> berith with us."
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The men of Israel said to the Hivites, "Perhaps you are living within our land; how then shall we make a covenant <H1285> berith with you?"

Joshua 9:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Joshua made peace with them and made a covenant with them <H1285> berith {peace treaty}, to let them live; and the leaders of the congregation swore an oath to them.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] It came about at the end of three days after they had made a covenant <H1285> berith {peace treaty} with them, that they heard that they were neighbors and that they were living within their land.

2 Chronicles 23:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then, in the seventh year, Jehoiada summoned his courage and took the commanders of hundreds into a covenant <H1285> berith {peace treaty for protection} with him: Azariah son of Jeroham, Ishmael son of Jehohanan, Azariah son of Obed, Maaseiah son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat son of Zichri.




SHALL I GO ON?

 

[PlainWord]

IT WAS NOT INTENDED THAT ANY SHOULD UNDERSTAND IT UNTIL NOW.

Actually the angel was referring to the time of the end of the Jewish nation, not the planet. Peter confirms this very point in Acts 2.

[FONT=&quot]14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Shall be saved.’

By citing this passage, Peter was telling them that they were in the last days (of their nation and the age). The "Spirit" was poured out upon them if you look back to v4.

 

[PlainWord]

time of the end doesn't necessarily mean end of the universe....... see acts 2 where peter applies "In the last days" from joel to what happened 2000 years ago in pentecost and also the many times john peter paul all say they are in the last days, john even says it is the "last time"

Sorry, didn't see your response to Him. You are of course correct. They were in "their last days." Did you notice the whole passage from Joel that Peter was quoting?

19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

Peter, by citing Joel, is telling of the pending destruction that will come to his nation. It is the same language Jesus uses in Mat 24:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth ("tribes of Israel") will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is how we know that the "parousia" return of Christ happened in 70 AD, immediately after the "Great Tribulation" of those days. This same "cosmic turmoil" imagery is found in at least 3 places in the OT to discuss the destruction of Egypt, Babylon and the Imudians (Edomites) where the presence of God came to punish. It really shouldn't be that hard to understand that Christ came to punish the wicked during the end of the Jewish age in exactly the same way.

 

[Ahwatukee]

time of the end doesn't necessarily mean end of the universe....... see acts 2 where peter applies "In the last days" from joel to what happened 2000 years ago in pentecost and also the many times john peter paul all say they are in the last days, john even says it is the "last time"

Hello Muzungu256,

You are correct! If you read the rest of the context, you will see that the reference to "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the age when Christ returns to establish his millennial kingdom.

 

[J7]

The time of the end means the period of Wrath, (i.e. the 70th week); Daniel has already had this explained to him by the Angel Gabriel - see Daniel 8.
19 He said, “Listen, and I will tell you what will take place later in the period of wrath; for it refers to the appointed time of the end.

Anyone would think that this is advanced ballistic science or something. But it is terribly simple; you just trace the usages of " 'eth qets", the time of the end.

 

[PlainWord]

Careful Popeye, you do not want to be part of this group:


2 Peter 3:3-4 (NIV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

This passage also dealt with the destruction of Israel in 70 AD and the scoffers in that day who were rejecting the warnings of their pending doom. I know the below appears to sound like the end of the planet, but it was only the end of Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth (Israel) and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

The "elements" were not all the elements of the periodic table. There were only 4 elements known in the ancient world and they were; earth, air, fire and water. The first Periodic Table of Elements" wasn't even published until 1869 by Russian physicist, Dmitri Mendeleev. Now a number of physical elements such as gold, silver, tin, iron etc have been known from way back in Peter's day as they were found in their natural state and were easily mined and used.

Around 350 BC Aristotle proposed that everything was made up of a mixture of one or more "roots" which Plato later called the four "elements" which again were; earth, air, fire and water. This understanding continued well past Peter's day.

According to Josephus, when the temple and Jerusalem were being burned to the ground, the fire was so intense that it appeared that the sky (heaven itself) was on fire. Now I can already hear the criticism coming from some of you saying that heaven and earth has not passed away. Again, we need to think like primitive first century men with limited knowledge and a different way of expressing things.

To prove that "heaven and earth" passed away in 70 AD consider this passage from Mat 5:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Did anyone else catch this? Jesus linked the Law to the passing of "heaven and earth" and that He fulfilled things. When the temple was destroyed, the Law ended. This was a monumental event!! For those who think the passing of "heaven and earth" is a future literal destruction of the planet, then you must believe that we are still living under the Law. This notion contradicts much of the NT and must be rejected as we are clearly under Grace.

For those who haven't done so, read Josephus and gain an understanding of the expressions and language of that generation. In so doing, you will be thinking that Josephus is literally discussing everything foretold by Jesus, Paul and John.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello Muzungu256,

You are correct! If you read the rest of the context, you will see that the reference to "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the age when Christ returns to establish his millennial kingdom.

Correct, and this happened in 70 AD as I just proved in my last post. The new heavens and new earth is the church. Israel was destroyed in 70 AD. From that point forward God's people are the Church made up of believing Jews and Gentiles.

The so-called "millennial kingdom" is the Church Age. Christ is the King of this spiritual kingdom in heaven and on earth. We live on this earth, but we are not "of" this earth. Our residence is in heaven. We have eternal life having passed from death to life without physically dying. This is the meaning of John 5:24 and 1 John 3:14.

 

[Muzungu256]

Hello Muzungu256,

You are correct! If you read the rest of the context, you will see that the reference to "the time of the end" is referring to the end of the age when Christ returns to establish his millennial kingdom.

whaaaaaat??????? it makes no mention of a millennial earthly kingdom there........... Jesus is on the right side of the Father right now on His throne!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world, Jesus even said in luke 17:20-21

[h=1]Luke 17:20-21[/h][FONT=&quot]20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.[/FONT]

 

[garee]

The real ANTICHRIST will make Julius Caesar look like a mouse. Apparently you cannot imagine the Ultimate Evil Dictator. Remember the prophecies say the Ultimate Dictator will DECEIVE the multitudes by the miracles that he does. I do not remember reading anything that said the Caesars did miracles.

Well what does a lying spirit look like since we do not wrestle agiinst the things seen of this world. Christians walk by faith not according to the wisdom of this world.

 

[VCO]

Actually the angel was referring to the time of the end of the Jewish nation, not the planet. Peter confirms this very point in Acts 2.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord

Shall be saved.’

By citing this passage, Peter was telling them that they were in the last days (of their nation and the age). The "Spirit" was poured out upon them if you look back to v4.

The Sun turning Dark, the Moon blood red, and wonders in the heavens EFFECT THE WHOLE WORLD.

Revelation 3:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept My command to endure, I will also keep you from the hour of testing
that is going to come over the whole world to test those who live on the earth.


Once again your Twilight Zone Theology FAILS the TEST of Scripture.

 

[VCO]

whaaaaaat??????? it makes no mention of a millennial earthly kingdom there........... Jesus is on the right side of the Father right now on His throne!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world, Jesus even said in luke 17:20-21

Luke 17:20-21

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

WOW, you amaze me Muzungu, at how little you really know about Christ's earthly Kingdom. I will let Ahwatukee answer your question about that, before I put my two cents worth in. I always thought Jamaica was mostly born again pretribbers. I guess I got that impression from the talk radio program on Love 101 FM - FM 101.1 - Kingston - Listen Online, from Kingston, Jamaica.

 

[VCO]

This passage also dealt with the destruction of Israel in 70 AD and the scoffers in that day who were rejecting the warnings of their pending doom. I know the below appears to sound like the end of the planet, but it was only the end of Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth (Israel) and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

The "elements" were not all the elements of the periodic table. There were only 4 elements known in the ancient world and they were; earth, air, fire and water. The first Periodic Table of Elements" wasn't even published until 1869 by Russian physicist, Dmitri Mendeleev. Now a number of physical elements such as gold, silver, tin, iron etc have been known from way back in Peter's day as they were found in their natural state and were easily mined and used.

Around 350 BC Aristotle proposed that everything was made up of a mixture of one or more "roots" which Plato later called the four "elements" which again were; earth, air, fire and water. This understanding continued well past Peter's day.

According to Josephus, when the temple and Jerusalem were being burned to the ground, the fire was so intense that it appeared that the sky (heaven itself) was on fire. Now I can already hear the criticism coming from some of you saying that heaven and earth has not passed away. Again, we need to think like primitive first century men with limited knowledge and a different way of expressing things.

To prove that "heaven and earth" passed away in 70 AD consider this passage from Mat 5:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Did anyone else catch this? Jesus linked the Law to the passing of "heaven and earth" and that He fulfilled things. When the temple was destroyed, the Law ended. This was a monumental event!! For those who think the passing of "heaven and earth" is a future literal destruction of the planet, then you must believe that we are still living under the Law. This notion contradicts much of the NT and must be rejected as we are clearly under Grace.

For those who haven't done so, read Josephus and gain an understanding of the expressions and language of that generation. In so doing, you will be thinking that Josephus is literally discussing everything foretold by Jesus, Paul and John.

Do you have even the SLIGHTEST idea how INSANELY CRAZY your Theology is. Jesus said that it will not END till Heaven (the Earth's Atmosphere) and the Earth will pass away the SAME TIME as the LAW.


Romans 3:20 (CSBBible)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For no one will be justified in his sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin comes through the law.



THAT PURPOSE FOR THE LAW REMAINS UNTIL THE NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH's ETERNAL STATE COMES.

WHY? ONLY THEN WILL EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING BE GLORIFIED and ETERALLY HOLY, WITHOUT SIN.

 

[Zi]

Think like primitive 1st century men??? The Holy Spirit surely knows language that transcends time in any century... They were not alone when writing scripture... What you say sounds good but isn't sound..

This passage also dealt with the destruction of Israel in 70 AD and the scoffers in that day who were rejecting the warnings of their pending doom. I know the below appears to sound like the end of the planet, but it was only the end of Israel at the destruction of Jerusalem.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth (Israel) and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

The "elements" were not all the elements of the periodic table. There were only 4 elements known in the ancient world and they were; earth, air, fire and water. The first Periodic Table of Elements" wasn't even published until 1869 by Russian physicist, Dmitri Mendeleev. Now a number of physical elements such as gold, silver, tin, iron etc have been known from way back in Peter's day as they were found in their natural state and were easily mined and used.

Around 350 BC Aristotle proposed that everything was made up of a mixture of one or more "roots" which Plato later called the four "elements" which again were; earth, air, fire and water. This understanding continued well past Peter's day.

According to Josephus, when the temple and Jerusalem were being burned to the ground, the fire was so intense that it appeared that the sky (heaven itself) was on fire. Now I can already hear the criticism coming from some of you saying that heaven and earth has not passed away. Again, we need to think like primitive first century men with limited knowledge and a different way of expressing things.

To prove that "heaven and earth" passed away in 70 AD consider this passage from Mat 5:

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Did anyone else catch this? Jesus linked the Law to the passing of "heaven and earth" and that He fulfilled things. When the temple was destroyed, the Law ended. This was a monumental event!! For those who think the passing of "heaven and earth" is a future literal destruction of the planet, then you must believe that we are still living under the Law. This notion contradicts much of the NT and must be rejected as we are clearly under Grace.

For those who haven't done so, read Josephus and gain an understanding of the expressions and language of that generation. In so doing, you will be thinking that Josephus is literally discussing everything foretold by Jesus, Paul and John.

 

[tanakh]

And when he had spoken these things while they beheld he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly towards heaven as he went up behold two men stood by them in white apparel which also said Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall also come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Acts 1:9-11

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with the trump of Godand the dead in Christ shall rise first then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cloudsto meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons brethren ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape. But you brethren are not in darkness so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

1 Thess 4:16 - 5:1-5

According to the Pre trib teaching Jesus is to return silently and invisibly to the unbelieving world like a thief in the night
and everyone left is going to wonder where all the christians have gone. After recovering from the mass disapearence,
driverless cars and pilotless Aircraft the world will go on for seven more years until the second coming which is in this scenario really the third. Is this really what the above passages are saying when they are read literally?

According to Acts Jesus left the earth visibly and the disciples were told that the way he left is the same way he was coming back. Paul talks of Shouts and Trumpets and meeting Christ in the air, a fairly noisy arrival which sounds like what used to be called the second coming. More importantly the rapture according to Paul immediately results in sudden destruction for those not raptured who are described as being asleep. Christ comes suddenly like a thief and the unbelieving world will not be expecting him.

 

[Muzungu256]

WOW, you amaze me Muzungu, at how little you really know about Christ's earthly Kingdom. I will let Ahwatukee answer your question about that, before I put my two cents worth in. I always thought Jamaica was mostly born again pretribbers. I guess I got that impression from the talk radio program on Love 101 FM - FM 101.1 - Kingston - Listen Online, from Kingston, Jamaica.

well bro you just went ahead and said OT saints are not the church and both NT and OT saints are the ekklesia and all these weird dispensational separations to make their theory fit......... then you generalize what jamaicans believe and are like and say born again pretribbers, as if pre-tribulation rapture and the americanized mcdonalds christiantiy which is very new doctrine in the history of the church is a salvation issue.......... so are you saying all who are not pretrib are not saved???????? there goes all the church fathers, all the reformers even and all of the church history until recent times...............

 

[Muzungu256]

According to Acts Jesus left the earth visibly and the disciples were told that the way he left is the same way he was coming back. Paul talks of Shouts and Trumpets and meeting Christ in the air, a fairly noisy arrival which sounds like what used to be called the second coming. More importantly the rapture according to Paul immediately results in sudden destruction for those not raptured who are described as being asleep. Christ comes suddenly like a thief and the unbelieving world will not be expecting him.

yup this alone debunks pre-trib rapture........ it doesn't debunk premillennialism but pre-trib is out the window for sure.......... also i was told that the rapture is a mystery revealed only to Paul, then when i quoted in the latter part of matthew 24 where it says it would be like in the days of noah with no signs (His return) then they proceed to tell me oh yeah thats the rapture............ but wait a minute i was told its only revealed to paul...................
not to mention the point someone made earleir that why would Jesus first tell the disciples something then all of a sudden change the doctrine completely and reveal it secretly to paul, even the 12 apostles would of been like what in the world are you talking about.................. this is so clear its impossible to be true think about it lol..........