Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A

Ariel82

Guest
A lot of kids don't like baths, yet their parents still washes them clean.

Is God less powerful or loving than earthly parents that He wouldn't wash clean all His Kids but let them run away instaed?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
I actually got what Fran was saying in the post you quoted.

We are justified when we are saved and will be sanctified throughout our whole life.

It seems on that point you both are in agreement,
We are positionally sanctified as well. That is imputed righteousness. The outward application of this positional sanctification can be progressive. If you say we're are progressively sanctified in terms of God 's view of us then our works take prominence over the work of Jesus already accomplished.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
something many might not know: The Hebrew children received the moral law of God at Mt Sinai, they were to be crossing over to the promised land shortly after that, But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Hence the Law of Moses was added on because of DISOBEDIENCE/UNBELIEF/SIN, until the coming of Christ Gal, 3-19. therefore a 12 day trek turned out to be a 40 year misery and perishing in the wilderness, for they lusted (which gives birth to sin) after all manner of evil things, Now all these things happened unto them for our example: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.....Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


OBEDIENCE
[TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]1 Romans 1:5[/TD]
[TD]By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]2 Romans 5:19[/TD]
[TD]For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]3 Romans 6:16[/TD]
[TD]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]4 Romans 16:19[/TD]
[TD]For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]5 Romans 16:26[/TD]
[TD]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]6 1 Corinthians 14:34[/TD]
[TD]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]7 2 Corinthians 7:15[/TD]
[TD]And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]8 2 Corinthians 10:5[/TD]
[TD]Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]9 2 Corinthians 10:6[/TD]
[TD]And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]10 Philemon 1:21[/TD]
[TD]Having confidence in thy obedience I wrote unto thee, knowing that thou wilt also do more than I say.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]11 Hebrews 5:8[/TD]
[TD]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]12 1 Peter 1:2[/TD]
[TD]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF DISOBEDIENCE
[TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]2 Corinthians 10:6[/TD]
[TD]And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]3 Ephesians 2:2[/TD]
[TD]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]4 Ephesians 5:6[/TD]
[TD]Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]5 Colossians 3:6[/TD]
[TD]For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"]6 Hebrews 2:2[/TD]
[TD]For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Must be nice to take a bunch of single verses out of context and build a doctrine.

This is just one giant pretext
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
We are positionally sanctified as well. That is imputed righteousness. The outward application of this positional sanctification can be progressive. If you say we're are progressively sanctified in terms of God 's view of us then our works take prominence over the work of Jesus already accomplished.
We are positionally sanctified by the imputed righteousness of Jesus (alien righteousness). However God views us as we are and who He will make us to become (our own proper righteousness). It is His work in our lives that makes us godly people seeking to glorify His name.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
Grace,

The man going to show himself to the priests is part of the Ceremonial Law.
This became null and void after Jesus died on the cross.

It's the Moral Law that never became null and void.
Really!?!? Romans 13.8-9 shows you how the moral law is fulfilled_

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Jesus said the only moral law we follow is quite simple.

Love God
Love others
Love yourself

Do you obey God based out of fearful requirement or out of Love for what He did for you?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
I think, the law show us what to do, but the Holy Spirit help us do.

without Holy Spirit, we do not able to do the law
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
We are positionally sanctified as well. That is imputed righteousness. The outward application of this positional sanctification can be progressive. If you say we're are progressively sanctified in terms of God 's view of us then our works take prominence over the work of Jesus already accomplished.
Why are you so afraid of works?
God's grace falls on you no matter what?

Do you think that by doing works, God will give you less grace?
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Really!?!? Romans 13.8-9 shows you how the moral law is fulfilled_

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Jesus said the only moral law we follow is quite simple.

Love God
Love others
Love yourself

Do you obey God based out of fearful requirement or out of Love for what He did for you?
I'm sorry to say that you don't even understand what I said.

Study the different types of Law in the Old Testament.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
We are positionally sanctified. However God views us as we are and who He will make us to become. It is His work in our lives that makes us godly people seeking to glorify His name.
Yes I see that in Scripture too and agree, when people, especially those of the Catholic doctrine talk about sanctification they are talking about something different than you and I. as a former catholic that doctrine is about being good and the more good we are the more good we become all in our own effort. Same word but a very different understanding.

That is why on this thread they use the same words but the discussion goes around and around.

We have proven faithfully in this thread we are saved by grace in a singular event and it cannot be undone Period.
It goes like this for I am persuaded....Romans 8:38-39

Praise God where would we be without His perfect plan!
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Must be nice to take a bunch of single verses out of context and build a doctrine.

This is just one giant pretext
What is the doctrine he built?

I might also add that one cannot take a verse or two and make a doctrine out of it,
but Willybod posted MANY.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
I miss-understand which point?
There is a difference between the OT and the NT. It appears to be the indwellling Holy Spirit
Before Christ came the Holy Spirit fell occasionally on people, but never indwelt them.

After the cross, the Holy Spirit had communion in the believer. It was this anointing which the
disciples took as the sign He was blessing gentiles in the same way He blessed Jews.

Being made into a new creation appears to be a transformation of our hearts and souls, but not
something that comes from outside but something that happens internally. We become the temple
of the Holy Spirit, pure, Holy, undefiled. The inner conflict is how we cleanse and stay in a state
of purity.
If you can...picture someone "whelmed" by another. Someone completely Holy...who loves with a love that cannot even be described, for if you are ever hugged by this One? Indescribable. And He walks with us. Daily walks...and together...you look at others...He gives you sight to see into the need. Words of healing flow...

The Ghost! I can see why people shout Holy Ghost! lol

I got new clearer eyes today.


And I don't even care if you all think I've lost it. It's great to be lost in Him.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Why are you so afraid of works?
God's grace falls on you no matter what?

Do you think that by doing works, God will give you less grace?
Sorry honey, you still have it wrong, it is Christ within who works in US to will and to do His good pleasure. Phil 2:13

You need to understand the plan of salvation designed by God, what you espoused makes no sense ....I saw through the lies a long time ago...what is taking you so long?

And why are you hung up on your looks does that live up to the Sermon on the Mount. We all have to face we fall short of perfection.. we have cannot fix our own hearts it a sin to think we can ...it is called self - righteousness.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
I absolutely believe we have a choice to make when the gift and the debt owing is explained to us, we can choose to accept or deny, believe or not believe.
Can you deny or not believe after you take the gift?

If they did under the Old Covenant? what radically changed under the New Covenant?

Be honest here now, and lets not talk mental assenting to salvation, this is where many can stumble.

You suggest God is no longer a covenant God after he pays your debt....yet many people get a debt paid by someone else and go right back into debt again.

You are saying that the freedom of choice is lost once God pays the debt. The Epistles are full of stories of others that walked away after God paid their debt.

To be clear this is not talking about doing works to maintain salvation, or to be granted salvation, this is about walking away from the Faith up to and including Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I know a man who was once a very powerful servant of God. When His wife died in a car accident, he could never get over it...he said that Jesus used the devil's power to kill his wife...No tell me, is that man OSAS and when he passed was it to Glory?

Sadly, I know many faithful that renounce God outright and blame him for the death f spouses, kids, etc and they make a willful determination to walk away from God and in doing so seared their conscience from hearing the Holy Spirit.

If you believe no personal faith saves you then you will not agree with this view, and if that is your view, lets leave this here and not start a war.

If you do believe personal faith saves you, then you have to explain how you can suggest accepting the free gift of Salvation takes you hostage even after the renouncement of God, falling away from the faith[Apostasy] and cursing the Holy Spirit, because sister that ain't found anywhere in the Bible...

1 John 2.19 does not apply here IMO, because I have seen to many people get hurt and offended so bad they reject God, and they were fully for him, the fruit and everything proves to you they were a follower.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Yes I see that in Scripture too and agree, when people, especially those of the Catholic doctrine talk about sanctification they are talking about something different than you and I. as a former catholic that doctrine is about being good and the more good we are the more good we become all in our own effort. Same word but a very different understanding.

That is why on this thread they use the same words but the discussion goes around and around.

We have proven faithfully in this thread we are saved by grace in a singular event and it cannot be undone Period.
It goes like this for I am persuaded....Romans 8:38-39

Praise God where would we be without His perfect plan!
Romans 8
26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, becauseg the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,h for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified

****
Amen to God's promises...


Wonder if folks will ever get tired of making false accusations of what others believe?

Who is afraid of good works?

The difference is so you have faith in Jesus and what He has done or in your good works?

We are saved by faith FOR good works NOT BY good works.

The Bible is very clear about that distinction why do people want to fuzzy the lines?

Faith in Jesus is the root.

Good works are the fruit and only happens after salvation. It is not the CAUSE of salvation,

The Root saves and can bring new life even if the whole tree is burnt down. The fruit turns rotten if not given nourishment from the Root.