Why Not......If you believe in Mid-trib and post-trib then you cannot believe in the Imminent return of Jesus in the Clouds, Simply tell us why....give us verses.
The Rapture
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Why Not......If you believe in Mid-trib and post-trib then you cannot believe in the Imminent return of Jesus in the Clouds, Simply tell us why....give us verses.
Well Samuel23, I'd have to disagree with you, because by comparing and cross-referencing scripture is how I came to my conclusion in regards to the timing of the gathering of the church in relation to God's time of wrath.
The main problem with yours and other interpretation of the church being gathered in Matt.24:30-31 is that the wrath of God must take place prior to Jesus return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, Matt.24:30-31 cannot be depicting the church being gathered because it would mean that the living church would have to go through the entire wrath of God.
I'm trying to be spiritual at all. I'm just stating the scriptural facts.
John never has the church as being on the earth during the seals. The church/bride is seen as being in heaven during the time of God's wrath.
Your problem is misinterpretation of the tribulation period vs. God's wrath, when they are one and the same. It is God's tribulation, not man's or Satan's.
Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, which are followed by the bowl judgments. Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.19:11-15 which are synonymous, takes place shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the entire wrath of God, including the plagues that the two witnesses unleash.
That statement runs contrary to the Word and violates scripture.
“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city."
The text is clear. The 70 weeks were just for them, not the whole planet. The 70 weeks are long over and fulfilled. Guess what, the 70 weeks ended (Christ was cut-off in the middle of it).
Who said anything about it being a secret? The book is called, "the Revelation of Jesus Christ." The book starts out this way:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants— things which must shortly take place.
God gave Jesus to show His servants. Show His servants what? Go ahead, its okay, you can answer. It's a tap in for birdie. Go ahead, you can do it.
I think the verses that pertain to a specific 7 year tribulation in Daniel to be fulfilled. Thus there is no specific 7 year tribulation for us nor anywhere to be found in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul describes the Second coming, he says when Christ comes back He (Christ) will deliver the kingdom back to God, so that God can be our all in all. Therefore I don't believe in a physical Christ reign on earth from Jerusalem. I believe Christ is reigning now from Heaven, His kingdom includes the Church His ambassadors. We are Christ on earth, Paul says we are His body (spiritually). The Church, I believe, is a continuation of true Israel, for Paul said if you are in Christ, you are a child of Abraham and we recipient of all the promises of God.
I believe the church since Christ has always live in times of trial and tribulation from the world. When Christ comes again, He is not going to be demoted to an earthly throne. We will meet Him in the air as He comes down to earth with all the saints while the earth is burning up in fire. We will continue to down with Christ to a remade earth where we will spend eternity with Him. We will be changed and be like Him, there will be no need for Christ to rule as He rules now. This how I understand it, I could be wrong. All I really know is that Heaven will be glorious and beautiful.
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Partially true. The Second Temple was about 600 ft south of the wailing wall. The wailing wall was actually part of the Roman fortress, Antonia. According to Josephus, every stone in the entire city was removed and the foundations were dug up. The only things left standing were 3 Roman towers left as evidence of their victory.
I still don't think God would allow them to rebuild a building devoted to the Law as He has no interest in honoring or accepting it as holy. God destroyed the last temple, why would He all of a sudden after 2,000 years given in to the orthodox Jews and allow them to re-institute the Law complete with animal sacrifices? That would be like saying His Son's blood was insufficient and the blood of cows and lambs are better.
1st to me in 1thess 4:16 it says Lord shall descend thats why i thought it would be a touchdown.............
and 2nd i had no idea thats how jewish weddings worked i gotta google judaism weddings and learn more......
3rd so you are saying the gathering is a separate event from the 2nd coming???????? is there any evidence in the bible that Jesus comes three times once to gather the church and once in the 'official' 2nd coming???
thanks for being patient with me people
Hello Bookends,
Dan.9:24 states that seventy sevens (seventy seven year periods) were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. These seventy sevens have three divisions:
7 sevens = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah would be cut off, Christ crucified
1 seven = The ruler establishing a seven year agreement with Israel
Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 regarding that 1 one seven saying "when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet" which demonstrates two things 1) that the prophecy of Daniel regarding the abomination being set up had not yet taken place and 2) it was yet to be fulfilled.
From the time that Jesus quoted this event to the destruction of the temple, there was no fulfillment of a seven year agreement, no abomination set up and no desolation as a result of the abomination being set up, with Israel being cared for out in the desert for 1260 days with the Lord returning to the earth at the end of that time.
Below is the scripture that you are referring to:
"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
If you read further down to verse 54, you will see that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Once death is destroyed, then Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. Regarding this, death is not destroyed until after the thousand year reign of Christ and during the great white throne judgment which follows. Therefore, Christ will not hand over the kingdom until after the thousand years and after death is destroyed at the great white throne judgment.
In the verse you quoted, Paul is not giving a step by step chronological fulfillment, but is making a general statement. Point in case is that, there is over a thousand years between the second coming and the time of the great white throne judgment which is when death is destroyed. To be clear, Paul is not saying "Christ will come back and then immediately following that, Christ will hand over the kingdom." As previously stated, Christ won't hand over the kingdom until the last enemy is destroyed, which is death and that doesn't happen until after the thousand years and during the great white throne judgment which takes place after the thousand years.
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"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Scripture states that Christ will rule with a rod of iron. Anyone with an honest observation can plainly see that Christ is not ruling with a rod of iron, nor are we the church ruling. His coming rule during the millennial kingdom will be a literal fulfillment, with Christ physically being on this earth ruling from Jerusalem and from the throne of king David, according to the scriptures.
Scripture also states that after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, the great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will also rule with Christ during that thousand years. When did that happen? We have yet to go through the tribulation period for the great tribulation saints to be killed so that they can be resurrected.
"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The church is not Israel, but is made up of both Jew and Gentile, a completely different institution and not a continuation of Israel.
It is not a demotion. Scripture states that when tempting Jesus, he took him up on a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. "All of this has been given to me and I can give it to anyone I want. If you will bow down and worship me it will all be yours." When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the title deed to the earth and all of its kingdoms were given over to Satan. His being kicked out of heaven in Rev.12 is part of the process of the revision of ownership from Satan back to God. Regarding this, when Christ returns physically and visually to this earth, He will have Satan thrown into the Abyss and restricted in there during that entire thousand years. After the thousand years he will have one last rebellion and then will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Jesus is going to reign literally upon this earth during the millennial kingdom:
"Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."
The statue represents human government
The Rock cut out without human hands represents Jesus
The Rock falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces, like chaff on a threshing floor with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which figurative representing the end of human government.
The Rock then becomes a huge mountain that fills the whole earth, which is figurative for Christ's millennial kingdom.
When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and we with him, at that time He will establish His millennial kingdom. After the millennial kingdom the great white throne judgment will take place, where all of the unrighteous dead will be judged. At the onset of that, this present heaven and earth will flee from God's presence and they will pass away. After the great white throne judgment God will create a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, for the first heaven and earth will have passed away.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them."
"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."
I hope this helps give some clarity of the chronological order of end-time events.
Dan.9:24 states that seventy sevens (seventy seven year periods) were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. These seventy sevens have three divisions:
7 sevens = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem
62 sevens = At the end of which the Messiah would be cut off, Christ crucified
1 seven = The ruler establishing a seven year agreement with Israel
Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 regarding that 1 one seven saying "when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet" which demonstrates two things 1) that the prophecy of Daniel regarding the abomination being set up had not yet taken place and 2) it was yet to be fulfilled.
From the time that Jesus quoted this event to the destruction of the temple, there was no fulfillment of a seven year agreement, no abomination set up and no desolation as a result of the abomination being set up, with Israel being cared for out in the desert for 1260 days with the Lord returning to the earth at the end of that time.
Below is the scripture that you are referring to:
"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death."
If you read further down to verse 54, you will see that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Once death is destroyed, then Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father. Regarding this, death is not destroyed until after the thousand year reign of Christ and during the great white throne judgment which follows. Therefore, Christ will not hand over the kingdom until after the thousand years and after death is destroyed at the great white throne judgment.
In the verse you quoted, Paul is not giving a step by step chronological fulfillment, but is making a general statement. Point in case is that, there is over a thousand years between the second coming and the time of the great white throne judgment which is when death is destroyed. To be clear, Paul is not saying "Christ will come back and then immediately following that, Christ will hand over the kingdom." As previously stated, Christ won't hand over the kingdom until the last enemy is destroyed, which is death and that doesn't happen until after the thousand years and during the great white throne judgment which takes place after the thousand years.
=========================================================
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
========================================================
Scripture states that Christ will rule with a rod of iron. Anyone with an honest observation can plainly see that Christ is not ruling with a rod of iron, nor are we the church ruling. His coming rule during the millennial kingdom will be a literal fulfillment, with Christ physically being on this earth ruling from Jerusalem and from the throne of king David, according to the scriptures.
Scripture also states that after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, the great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will also rule with Christ during that thousand years. When did that happen? We have yet to go through the tribulation period for the great tribulation saints to be killed so that they can be resurrected.
"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The church is not Israel, but is made up of both Jew and Gentile, a completely different institution and not a continuation of Israel.
It is not a demotion. Scripture states that when tempting Jesus, he took him up on a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. "All of this has been given to me and I can give it to anyone I want. If you will bow down and worship me it will all be yours." When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the title deed to the earth and all of its kingdoms were given over to Satan. His being kicked out of heaven in Rev.12 is part of the process of the revision of ownership from Satan back to God. Regarding this, when Christ returns physically and visually to this earth, He will have Satan thrown into the Abyss and restricted in there during that entire thousand years. After the thousand years he will have one last rebellion and then will be thrown into the lake of fire.
Jesus is going to reign literally upon this earth during the millennial kingdom:
"Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."
The statue represents human government
The Rock cut out without human hands represents Jesus
The Rock falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces, like chaff on a threshing floor with the wind blowing it away without leaving a trace, which figurative representing the end of human government.
The Rock then becomes a huge mountain that fills the whole earth, which is figurative for Christ's millennial kingdom.
When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and we with him, at that time He will establish His millennial kingdom. After the millennial kingdom the great white throne judgment will take place, where all of the unrighteous dead will be judged. At the onset of that, this present heaven and earth will flee from God's presence and they will pass away. After the great white throne judgment God will create a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, for the first heaven and earth will have passed away.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them."
"Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."
I hope this helps give some clarity of the chronological order of end-time events.
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The question is why the need of a temple as that seen in order to bring to an end the beast who has no form reigning as the god of this world? Literal chains and walls cannot bind a spirit as if it was flesh and blood as that in which we do wrestle against.
How and why would a structured building be necessary ? Was not God capable of reigning by faith the unseen as King of kings before he gave the Jewish elders over to their jealous demands of the surrounding other nations? The time of reformation had come marked by the veil and it restored the government to another time period like that of the Judges. It would seem obviously before their were Kings in Israel God was ruling from heaven ?
What time period do you think it was restored to?
Simple garee, it is because seventy sevens were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and only sixty nine of those have been fulfilled. Therefore, God has that last seven years that must be fulfilled with Israel and Jerusalem. God is going to pick up right where He left off prior to beginning to build the church. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend and gather His church. Following that will be the fulfillment of that last seven years, with Christ returning to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
AHW,
I guess you missed one of my previous posts. According to 3-4th century Jewish Christian historian Eusebius, this is the understanding of the Jews some 1600-1700 years ago and much closer to the event.
But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus. Eusebius: Church History - Book 3, Chapter 5, paragraph 4
I guess you missed one of my previous posts. According to 3-4th century Jewish Christian historian Eusebius, this is the understanding of the Jews some 1600-1700 years ago and much closer to the event.
But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus. Eusebius: Church History - Book 3, Chapter 5, paragraph 4
By the way, Christ ruling on the earth is not a demotion. He created the earth and everything in it. The legal ownership is reverting back from Satan to God and mankind. The millennial period will be a time of peace like the earth has never experienced where prey and predator animals and their young will lie down together. And where the Lion will eat straw like the Ox. And the longevity of age will be like it was prior to the flood. And in the end after Satan is released, mankind will still rebel against God.
ok so i did some reading and there is a billion different versions of how ancient jewish weddings went as i expected........ no source on any jewish site just a bunch of christian webpages promoting the rapture............... can someone find me a jewish source on this?????????????
AHW,
The Woman of Rev 12 was the Christian church of Jerusalem. Again, according to Eusebius, the church fled Jerusalem the day after James the Just, was martyred because on that day, Vespasian arrived and began to surround the city. According to Josephus, not one holy man was left in the city as the city waited for destruction (desolation).
The one who caused the desolation was Titus. The Roman troops with their pagan "ensigns" which contained an image of the Emperor were placed in the Temple and they sacrificed and worshiped Titus there.
There was no peace treaty and Daniel does not discuss one.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
Notice that the "He" is capitalized? The translators are saying this was Jesus and we have Jesus confirming the new covenant with His blood.
The below is discussing the 70 AD event as Titus was the "Prince of the people" who destroyed the city and sanctuary. The desolations of Jerusalem were determined at the end of the war. Please stop trying to find a future fulfillment when you have past fulfillment plainly shown to you.
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
The Woman of Rev 12 was the Christian church of Jerusalem. Again, according to Eusebius, the church fled Jerusalem the day after James the Just, was martyred because on that day, Vespasian arrived and began to surround the city. According to Josephus, not one holy man was left in the city as the city waited for destruction (desolation).
The one who caused the desolation was Titus. The Roman troops with their pagan "ensigns" which contained an image of the Emperor were placed in the Temple and they sacrificed and worshiped Titus there.
There was no peace treaty and Daniel does not discuss one.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
Notice that the "He" is capitalized? The translators are saying this was Jesus and we have Jesus confirming the new covenant with His blood.
The below is discussing the 70 AD event as Titus was the "Prince of the people" who destroyed the city and sanctuary. The desolations of Jerusalem were determined at the end of the war. Please stop trying to find a future fulfillment when you have past fulfillment plainly shown to you.
And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
ok i found a jewish source................. interesting this puts it into new light.
End Times | Rapture & Jewish Wedding
interesting........... i got some praying to do..........
but isnt israel the bride of Christ and not the church???????? or should i say both since there is no jew or gentile
End Times | Rapture & Jewish Wedding
interesting........... i got some praying to do..........
but isnt israel the bride of Christ and not the church???????? or should i say both since there is no jew or gentile
Morning Muzungu256,
Israel is the wife of God, not a bride. The church is the bride of Christ. In regards to going to a Jewish source, they don't consider the NT has the word of God and so they are not going to have all the extra detailed information in the OT that we do in the NT. But as far as the Jewish wedding goes, that is a good representation of the relationship between Christ as the Bridegroom and the church as the bride.
Do you mean before there was any death. corruption changed something? What will the lions eat since there will be no more predators (no death)
And the longevity of age will be like it was prior to the fall... not the flood,but before corruption.
In the end of what?
So then are you saying that some will have received their new incorruptible bodies which will be neither male nor female,neither Jew nor Gentile and together will walk around with those in flesh and blood? Will they be Zombies?
The thousand in Revelation 20 is the same metephor used through the scriptures to represent a unknow amount of time or whatever is in veiw. No literal thosand years, no literal key, or chain or a literal beheaded souls as disembodied spirits.
Have you performed a study as to how the word thousand is used throughout the scriptures?
wait a second so God is gonna have two wifes Israel and the church????????? now we are entering into some interesting territory, id say its one body jew and gentile in Christ........... One ekklesia of God.........
I would have to ask whose bride is your wife?
We are to love our wives as Christ loves us His church or wife,She is made up of many lively stones…. that does make up His spiritual house (not seen)
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
It would seem she which is neither Jew not gentile makes up the living stones that does make up the church Christ’s wife. Why separate what God has joined together?
"Hallelujah!For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
The bride of Christ is the church. You can't give a city fine linen, white and clean to wear. The new Jerusalem is not the bride, but is referring to those who will reside in it.