The Rapture

VCO · Jun 18, 2017

Click on one his posts, then in the lower right of that post click on Reply with a Quote. THAT address the post directly to him, then ask your question. When I am busy, I too just read the posts addressed too me.

YES Christ sends the Archangel to call us out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, and at the end we come back with HIM to help HIM in the Earthly 1000 year Kingdom. Ahwatukee believes like I do, and there is little we disagree on.

Food for thought: Contrary to what most Christian Believe the GAP between the 69th Week and the 70th Week is mentioned in Daniel Chapter 9, that is the Church-age.

Daniel 9:25-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat, but in difficult times.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

NOTICE it does not say at the end of the 69th Week Messiah will be cut off.

NOTICE it does not say at the beginning of the 70th Week Messiah will be cut off.

IT CLEARLY IS SAYING IN THE TIME PERIOD that comes AFTER the 69th WEEK, and BEFORE the seven year Covenant (Peace Treaty) that begins the 70th week of DANIEL, Messiah will be cut off.

Muzungu256 · Jun 18, 2017

VCO do you believe jeremiah 31 new covenant applies to you, if not what covenant are you under now????????
and also can you maybe fill in for ahwatukee and say if there is any indication in the new testament that the return of Christ happens in parts meaning first comes for the church then with the church at the end??????????????
scratch my itch

Muzungu256 · Jun 18, 2017

VCO in your chart you said heathens who never heard the gospel will be raised up in the millennial kingdom this is interesting to me.......... are you saying these people will be resurrected during that time or what???????

VCO · Jun 18, 2017

THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT THE SECOND TEMPLE, WAS NOT ON WHAT WE CALL THE TEMPLE MOUNT.

BUT RATHER ON THE CRESCENT SHAPED MT. ZION, THAT IS NOT WHAT WE CALL MOUNT ZION TODAY.

ARCHIOLOGY IS BEGINNING TO PROVE THAT THE TEMPLE WAS SOUTH OF WHERE WE HAVE THOUGHT

IN THE CITY OF DAVID. THESE VIDEOS WERE MADE IN AUG. AND SEPT. OF 2016. IF THIS CAN BE

VERIFIED SOON, THERE IS NOTHING TO STOP ISRAEL FROM REBUILDING THE TEMPLE.

[video=youtube;vgCyD9AcDp4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgCyD9AcDp4[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px8LwiGtNxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnKcrcV-eFM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABOBO4gDCS4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTSCQgZirts

garee · Jun 18, 2017

VCO said:

Christ has come in the flesh for a one time demostration of the lamb of God salin from the foundation of the world.The veil is rent fullfilling is purpose at the time of reformation. What would be he purpose of another.

Ahwatukee · Jun 18, 2017

garee said:

To bring an end to the beasts reign, to cast Satan into the Abyss, to kill those who worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark and to bring an end to human government and establish his millennial kingdom. In addition and according to scripture, if the Lord didn't return when He does, no one would be left alive on the earth.

"While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."

The statue represents human government

The Rock is the Lord

The Rock falling on the feet of the statue and smashing it to pieces will be accomplished through the day of the Lord via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The meaning of the wind sweeping the pieces of the statue away without leaving a trace is referring to the end of human government.

The Rock becoming a huge mountain and filling the whole earth is referring to Christ's millennial kingdom which takes place after the smashing of the statue.

VCO · Jun 18, 2017

garee said:

To fulfill the Prophecy of the 70th Week of Daniel.

samuel23 · Jun 18, 2017

I use to think that the Jews were going to build a Temple of God, and then one day I begin to do something that often times ruins the best ideas, I begin to THINK. In the NT we have the Tabernacle, then we have the first Temple, and then building the second Temple. In all of those building projects God gave the command to build to people who were very much in the will of God. The idea that Jews today who have rejected Jesus Christ could build a Temple of God is a totally ridiculous idea and goes completely against scripture. I suppose the Jews could make a copy of the original Temple of God but it could NEVER be the Temple of God, the Temple of God today is the church. It may surprise some folks to know that the man who created the modern pre-trib rapture idea created it because he recognized that the Jews could not build a Temple of God while under the time when the Temple of God is the church, so he claimed that the church would go out early(pre-trib) and then the Jews would go back under the law and build the Temple.

Muzungu256 · Jun 18, 2017

Matthew 13:30
[FONT=&quot]Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.[/FONT]

Matthew 13:39
[FONT=&quot]The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[/FONT]

it says its at the end of the world, doesn't this alone destroy pre-trib rapture?????? let em grow together until the end........

popeye · Jun 18, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

At the GWTJ. That is where the heathen are burned.

The rapture is exclusive to the dead and living in Christ. An exclusive gathering.

That verse involving tares is an inclusive gathering.

Ahwatukee · Jun 18, 2017

samuel23 said:

Hello samuel23,

When you understand that 69 of the seven year periods where fulfilled and that God put a hold on the last seven year period to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to end the age, then it makes sense. The church is the church and Israel is Israel. The church is going to be gathered and God is going pick up right where he left off with Israel, with a temple, sacrifices and offerings, in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens.

In short, God has unfinished business with His people Israel that must be fulfilled and which has nothing to do with the church.

You are just repeating the popular apologetic that everyone else repeats regarding Darby and Scofield and whoever else. I personally have never read anything thing by those people, but came to the understanding that the church would be gathered prior to the first seal being opened by the studying the scriptures.

Regarding the rebuilding of the temple, you had better tell Israel about your complaint and that because they have the blue prints all drawn up and they are ready to build it. If you will go out to "The Temple Institute" website, which is located in Israel, you will see that they have all of the furniture, the table of the Show Bread, the lampstands, the trumpets, the incense burners, the dishes, etc., etc., are ready to go. In addition, several years ago they reconvened the Sanhedrin, they have been teaching from the law how to perform sacrifices and everything that is required for temple service according to the law.

God is getting everything ready to pick up where he left off in fulfillment of that last seven years. But before the completion of God's program for Israel can take place, the church must first be removed from the earth, which is the next event that is about to take place.

Go out here https://www.templeinstitute.org/ to the Temple institute site and see for yourself.

God willing, we'll make a believer out of you yet!

VCO · Jun 18, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

I am under the NEW TESTAMENT which also means NEW COVANENT, but do not confuse it with the NEW COVANENT with ISRAEL, where they finally have the law written on their heards like we do. That happens in the 70th Week of Daniel, after we are taken to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven, and is LARGELY because of the HOLY SPIRIT WORKING THRU THE TWO WITNESSES. Let me help you understand what is CONFUSING YOU. It is NOT a COMING OR A RETURN if HIS feet DO NOT TOUCH THE GROUND. In a Jewish Wedding the BRIDEGROOM did not go all the way to the house of the Bride's Father, he sent a chosen member of his Wedding Party to go on ahead to SHOUT and CALL OUT HIS BRIDE. Then that Chosen One would take the BRIDE to where the BRIDEGROOM had stopped. Has Christ Chosen one to SHOUT and call us out? YES, the Archangel. THEN THE WHOLE WEDDING PARTY GOES BACK TO THE HOUSE OF THE BRIDEGROOM'S FATHER FOR THE WEDDING CEREMONY.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

[video=youtube;dYgSp5S9-k0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgSp5S9-k0[/video]

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] “Look, the days are coming”—⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration—“when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] ⌊This one will⌋ not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke even though I had married them”—the LORD’s declaration.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] “Instead, this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days”—the LORD’s declaration. “I will put My teaching within them and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be My people.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] No longer will one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least to the greatest of them”—⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration. “For I will forgive their wrongdoing and never again remember their sin.”

Israel is still HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE (NATION). We are His adopted sons and daughters.

Here is where I think the SALVATION of ISRAEL happens, as it was prophecied in Jer. 31:31-34

Revelation 11:3-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] If anyone wants to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and consumes their enemies; if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] These men have the power to close up the sky so that it does not rain during the days of their prophecy. They also have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every plague whenever they want.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When they finish their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, conquer them, and kill them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Their dead bodies will lie in the public square of the great city, which prophetically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And representatives from the peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will view their bodies for three and a half days and not permit their bodies to be put into a tomb.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Those who live on the earth will gloat over them and celebrate and send gifts to one another because these two prophets brought judgment to those who live on the earth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] But after 3[SUP]1[/SUP]/[SUB]2[/SUB] days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet. So great fear fell on those who saw them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” They went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] At that moment a violent earthquake took place, a tenth of the city fell, and 7,000 people were killed in the earthquake. The survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

YES, I believe all of that will happen. Is the fire coming out of their mouths literal? Maybe, anything is possible with GOD, but more likely it is a Firey put down of the scoffers, speaking with the BOLDNESS OF GOD, consuming their lies with the TRUTH.

That GREAT EARTHQUAKE that kills 7000 people in Jerusalem, may be a prelude to the Earthquake that flattens the mountains all the way south to Rimmon (En-rimmon) west of the narrow point in the Dead Sea, and splits the Mount of Olives. I know Plainword said the split was the erosion along the Road going over the Mount Olives, but that is laughable. He obviously knows NOTHING about how ROCKY the Ground is there.

In fact the GROUND is so rocky that burial sites are only dug 1.2 meters deep.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...of_olives_cemetery_running_out_of _room.html

Zechariah 14:3-10 (NRSV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And you shall flee by the valley of the LORD's mountain, for the valley between the mountains shall reach to Azal; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there shall not be either cold or frost.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And there shall be continuous day (it is known to the LORD), not day and not night, for at evening time there shall be light.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.

samuel23 · Jun 18, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

I don't want to be rude, but it is impossible for you to find a pre-trib rapture by just reading the NT simply because the NT does not contain a pre-trib rapture. You are rejecting the actual literal teaching of the NT and you are using mental assertions of your own opinions in order to weave a story that seems to have some credibility but in truth is not at all what the NT is actually saying. You are trying so hard to be spiritual that you are missing the simple direct truth, Jesus described His return to rapture the church, Paul described the exact same return of Christ that Jesus gave the church. John had the church going through the tribulation(4 horsemen) and then the church is in Heaven after having gone through the great tribulation. All these things are very literal and very obvious, however you reject then and try to wrestle another meaning.

popeye · Jun 19, 2017

samuel23 said:

God is a God of purpose.
We all know (or should) by now,there is a rapture of the church as well as those believers buried.

There is the bride/groom dynamic,and the "times of the gentiles" fulfilled

The end of the church and gathering is depicted alongside the 10 virgin parable,the book of Ruth,and Noah's flood.

That framework is to be applied.

Enter the Jew. Enter the 4 part harvest.

With Jesus and the patriarchs in heaven(first fruits),and the times of the gentiles fulfilled (main harvest),we see the last 2 harvests is involving the Jews.(the first shall be last). "....but you saved the best for last"
Get it?
The Jews are the last "the best"
Now note that the FIRST miracle of Jesus(water int wine AT A WEDDING) is his "LAST" miracle.
IOW that miracle HAD TO BE his first miracle.

The rapture of the church pretrib is FOR the times of the gentiles completed....main harvest. followed by the corners and gleaners of the 4 part harvest (in leviticus)

Everything is headed to heaven,then after the GT,everything is headed to earth. The Jews get in (to heaven,to the wedding supper) at the last. They are the last seated.

We see the 144k as the first fruits. First fruits of what????? THE JEWISH GATHERING. Look at rev 14 "ripe fruit" they are harvested from the clouds,by Jesus,toward the end of the GT. BUT FIRST WE SEE THE 144K in heaven. Then "ripe fruit" gathered.

Again ,God is a God of purpose.

you have to see purpose.

end times is purpose. God's purpose.

I am telling you,post trib rapture will not happen,can not happen. Why? PURPOSE

Bladerunner · Jun 19, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

Hey, don't worry about it,,,, I am just glad I was able to get them to you.... it was touch and go there for a while..lol.

Blade

Bladerunner · Jun 19, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

Yes it does...... 1 Cor 15:51-52 "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

First the Dead shall be resurrected and then the rapture of the living believers. These are all in the first-fruits of Jesus Christ.
These also include the martyred Saints and the tribultion Saints. and at the end of the Great Tribulations,,,the 2nd advent of Jesus. The 2 resurrection is reserved for God (the father) during the Great White Throne Judgement.

1 thes 4:13-17 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here again we see the resurrection of the Dead and the Rapture of the Believers just as Paul tells the Thessalonian Church.

After He tells assembly about the above verses, he does something else here. A HE tells everyone to COMFORT ONE ANOTHER with these words in Rev 4:18.."18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Bladerunner · Jun 19, 2017

J7 said:

J7..you will find that the Bible and world history will fit together like a glove. That is because. If you read the Bible from one end to the other with a historic, hermenutical and grammatical standards, you will find out that our History is linked to the History of Israel and the gentiles of that area.

Bladerunner · Jun 19, 2017

PlainWord said:

Nothing you wrote refutes anything I quoted. Paul said every creature heard the Gospel and Paul died before 70 AD. 4th century Bishop of Caesaria agreed with Paul. Were both men insane? Were they flat out liars? Or maybe, the problem is with your understanding? Just a thought detective.

The GT was over 1900 years ago. I know you weren't around to witness it but those who were and wrote about it declared it to be the worst any nation had ever endured, period!!

but Daniel's 70th week is reserved for the entire world.

J7 · Jun 19, 2017

Nonsense. 70 weeks are determined on Israel and Jerusalem

Bladerunner · Jun 19, 2017

PlainWord said:

If it were a secret then how did you find out...Find someone who was still alive and just could not live with themselves any more.

The Rapture

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