The Rapture

[samuel23]

ok so you are historic premillennial??? (post trib). i like that view too it has only one return of Jesus so its straightforward which i like but let me ask you who populates the millennial kingdom?????? if all saved are raptured at the end (resurrection) there is no one to reproduce since all glorified bodies dont marry or are given in marriage..........

Good question, There is no clear answer on that one, it may be that children under 12 years of age are not given the mark of the Beast, therefore they were not saved(glorified body), yet they were not condemned because they did not take the mark of the Beast. If they survive the plagues and are alive when Jesus returns then they could populate the earth.

 

[Muzungu256]

at his coming it says, so when is there time for a millennium or better yet rapture since it says the rapture happens at his coming after which all rule is abolished but pretrib theory says AC is still running the world for 7 years after the rapture and death abounds???????:

[h=1]1 Corinthians 15:23-24New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][FONT=&quot]23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.[/FONT]

 

[Muzungu256]

Good question, There is no clear answer on that one, it may be that children under 12 years of age are not given the mark of the Beast, therefore they were not saved(glorified body), yet they were not condemned because they did not take the mark of the Beast. If they survive the plagues and are alive when Jesus returns then they could populate the earth.

or maybe some unsaved will survive who wont take it........... the way i see it is all views have their strengths and weaknesses...........

 

[popeye]

Good question, There is no clear answer on that one, it may be that children under 12 years of age are not given the mark of the Beast, therefore they were not saved(glorified body), yet they were not condemned because they did not take the mark of the Beast. If they survive the plagues and are alive when Jesus returns then they could populate the earth.

post tribs have a certain pattern of emphasizing the "repopulate earth" thingy.

Lets see,suppose the flood is true.

What kind of population is possible in 1000 years?

 

[samuel23]

You do realize that Revelation tells us of only two groups of people, Christians and non Christians. Christians get a new body that does not reproduce, and the non Christians get the mark of the Beast that damns them forever. That does not leave anyone else to populate the earth.

 

[VCO]

at his coming it says, so when is there time for a millennium or better yet rapture since it says the rapture happens at his coming after which all rule is abolished but pretrib theory says AC is still running the world for 7 years after the rapture and death abounds???????:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Okey, here is a tip. When something sounds confusing, back up and read the entire context, before you try to make sense of it.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] The last enemy to be abolished is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For God has put everything under His feet. But when it says “everything” is put under Him, it is obvious that He who puts everything under Him is the exception.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Now it is easy to see the subject is not just the Second Coming, but it is an OVERVIEW discussion the entire History of this world, and on into the New Heaven (atmosphere) and New Earth, and how all that relates to HIS Resurrection. From ADAM's sin, through the Resurrection of Christ, through our resurrections, through His Second Coming, through His Millenium Reign, and on into the Eternal State.

 

[PlainWord]

VCO,

Someone doesn't know Prophecy when he sees it.

SHOW ME THE SPLIT in the Mount of Olives forming a HUGE VALLEY.

SHOW ME THE FLAT PLAIN SOUTH OF JERUSALEM running all the way down to Rimmon.

Ask and you shall receive.

The below is a photo taken ~ 1890.

You can plainly see a road that dates back to the Maccabees. This road "split" the Mount of Olives "in two." The valley was likely much more pronounced in the 160s BC having filled in over the course of 2 millennia. But you can still see the dip between the two humps of the mountain.

Now look again at the relevant passage of Zech 14:

Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city...

Now look at 2 Maccabees 5: 14 Three days later Jerusalem had lost 80,000 people: 40,000 killed in the attack and at least that many taken away to be sold as slaves.

Back to Zech 14: Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

God has stood by and fought for Israel many times in the past. This is nothing new. The fact that God fought on the side of Israel against their Gentile enemies in the Maccabean War is clearly reported here:

2 Maccabees 11: 13 Lysias was no fool. As he thought about the defeat he had suffered, he realized it was because the mighty God had fought for the Jews, making it impossible for them to be defeated. So he sent a message to the Jews,14 trying to persuade them to agree to a just settlement and promising to do all he could to make the king friendly toward them.

2 Maccabees 15: 8 so he urged his men not to be afraid of the enemy. He encouraged them to remember how the Almighty had helped them in times past and to rest assured that he would give them victory this time also.

I showed the splitting of the Mount of Olives at the start. Zechariah like many of the OT prophets employed the use of apocalyptic literary style, just like John does in Revelation. This figurative language is rooted in actual fact, it's just written like poetry. Not knowing this is a very common thread for all you futurists. The splitting of the Mount of Olives allowing the Jews to flee is symbolic and a poetic representation of God splitting the Red Sea allowing the Jews to flee Egypt. This powerful picture would be immediately recognized by any Jew hearing it from Zechariah in his day or any day for that matter.

I could continue the rest of the chapter for you but it would be a waste of time.

 

[Ahwatukee]

at his coming it says, so when is there time for a millennium or better yet rapture since it says the rapture happens at his coming after which all rule is abolished but pretrib theory says AC is still running the world for 7 years after the rapture and death abounds???????:

1 Corinthians 15:23-24New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Hello Muzungu256,

I see that you are confused with the following scripture:

"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

The scripture above is regarding those who will have died in Christ who are resurrected and the living who are changed, both groups taking on their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It is not a general statement that death has been defeated and is not longer in operation. Death will still be in operation for those during the tribulation period and even during the millennial period. For at the end of the thousand years scripture states that those people as a type of Gog and Magog will surround the camp of God's people, the city that he loves and fire will come down out of heaven and devour them, demonstrating that death is still in operation.

It is not until the great white throne judgment that death is completely destroyed. In Rev.21 we are told that there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain. All of those things will pass away and will not be present in the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

Death destroyed after the millennial period at the great white thrown judgment:

"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." - Rev.20:11-15


Death will not exist in the eternal state in the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem:

"They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” - Rev.21:3-4

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is not referring to a step by step event. Christ was the first fruits of those who rise from the dead. Those "who are Christ's at his coming" is in reference to the church which is next to be resurrected with the living being changed and caught up.

Regarding death, Paul said "For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." That said, since death isn't destroyed until after the millennial period at the great white throne judgment, then Christ doesn't hand over the kingdom to God the Father until after the millennial period and after the great white throne judgment.

The resurrection and catching away of the church (death is still in operation)

the seven year tribulation period (death is still in operation)

The thousand year reign of Christ (death is still in operation)

End of the thousand year reign of Christ and the great white throne judgment (death is cast into the lake of fire)

Since death is the last enemy to be destroyed which takes place at the great white throne judgment, then after the great white throne judgment is when Christ hands over the kingdom to God the Father.

Hope this helps clear things up

 

[Ahwatukee]

You do realize that Revelation tells us of only two groups of people, Christians and non Christians. Christians get a new body that does not reproduce, and the non Christians get the mark of the Beast that damns them forever. That does not leave anyone else to populate the earth.

The groups referred to in Revelation:

The Great tribulation saints (Gentile believers on earth during the time of God's wrath)

The woman of Rev.12 who is representing the nation Israel

The 144,000 who come out of the twelve tribes of Israel

The rest of the unbelieving world.

The last time the church is referred to is at the very end of chapter 3. After that, the church is never referred within the narrative of God's wrath and are not mentioned again until Rev.19:6-8 as the bride in heaven receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb.

Those who will repopulate the earth will be the woman/Israel who will have been cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years (Rev.12:6,14). And those of the great tribulation saints who will have survived the entire period of God's wrath and the beasts reign. These are the wheat, those who the angels will be gathering from the four corners of the earth as described in Matt.24:31.

Therefore, it will be Israel and the great tribulation saints who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

 

[Crustyone]

Hey, that's "close enough for government work". I would argue believers only see the seals...and both the trumpets and the bowls are part of God's wrath. But...there's plenty of common ground there.

So apparently you would then agree...the first event we believers should be looking for is what Jesus said? The Abomination of Desolation? Which is, I believe, the explosive emergence of this evil world leader.

And if so...might we not be seeing signs of the world coming increasingly under the shadow of this satanic world regime?

Daniel 12:11-12 tells us we will see the end of the daily sacrifices 1,290 days before the Abomination. Before that Daniel 9:27 tells us that the evil one will set up a covenant with many for a seven and in the middle he will put an end to daily sacrifices and offerings. and then set up the Abomination. I don't know what the covenant will be or with whom, but it is the first timed thing that I can find before Christ's return.

 

[VCO]

VCO,



Ask and you shall receive.

The below is a photo taken ~ 1890.

You can plainly see a road that dates back to the Maccabees. This road "split" the Mount of Olives "in two." The valley was likely much more pronounced in the 160s BC having filled in over the course of 2 millennia. But you can still see the dip between the two humps of the mountain.

Now look again at the relevant passage of Zech 14:

Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city...

Now look at 2 Maccabees 5: 14 Three days later Jerusalem had lost 80,000 people: 40,000 killed in the attack and at least that many taken away to be sold as slaves.

Back to Zech 14: Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

God has stood by and fought for Israel many times in the past. This is nothing new. The fact that God fought on the side of Israel against their Gentile enemies in the Maccabean War is clearly reported here:

2 Maccabees 11: 13 Lysias was no fool. As he thought about the defeat he had suffered, he realized it was because the mighty God had fought for the Jews, making it impossible for them to be defeated. So he sent a message to the Jews,14 trying to persuade them to agree to a just settlement and promising to do all he could to make the king friendly toward them.

2 Maccabees 15: 8 so he urged his men not to be afraid of the enemy. He encouraged them to remember how the Almighty had helped them in times past and to rest assured that he would give them victory this time also.

I showed the splitting of the Mount of Olives at the start. Zechariah like many of the OT prophets employed the use of apocalyptic literary style, just like John does in Revelation. This figurative language is rooted in actual fact, it's just written like poetry. Not knowing this is a very common thread for all you futurists. The splitting of the Mount of Olives allowing the Jews to flee is symbolic and a poetic representation of God splitting the Red Sea allowing the Jews to flee Egypt. This powerful picture would be immediately recognized by any Jew hearing it from Zechariah in his day or any day for that matter.

I could continue the rest of the chapter for you but it would be a waste of time.

NOW, let me EXPOSE how flawed your Twilight Zone Theology really is:


Zechariah 14:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.

 

[Bladerunner]

You mean your distinguishing these things by seven years based on an incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9 is what causes your errors?

The Lord gathers together His own and then immediately judges the world. Its simple really.

"an incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9" What kind of incorrect interpretation? The only way you can do that is to change your hermeneutics in the middle of the stream.

 

[Bladerunner]

You do realize that Revelation tells us of only two groups of people, Christians and non Christians. Christians get a new body that does not reproduce, and the non Christians get the mark of the Beast that damns them forever. That does not leave anyone else to populate the earth.

Revelation tells us that those that live through Daniel's 70th week without taking the Mark of the Beast will be the ones who populate the world during the Millennium. Most all will be gentiles since the Jews that did not Flee to the Mountains (about 2000 years to late according to you...lol) died during the GT. The other Jews that fled the to the mountains will by the rulers and leaders by which Jesus will rule through.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation tells us that those that live through Daniel's 70th week without taking the Mark of the Beast will be the ones who populate the world during the Millennium. Most all will be gentiles since the Jews that did not Flee to the Mountains (about 2000 years to late according to you...lol) died during the GT. The other Jews that fled the to the mountains will by the rulers and leaders by which Jesus will rule through.

Hello Bladerunner,

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet regarding your two previous messages. I will get to them tonight at work though. Promise!

 

[samuel23]

That is nonsense, the most perfect description of the church is given after they had gone through the tribulation...for crying out loud, get some journalistic integrity.

 

[J7]

ALMOST RIGHT.

Those who WOULD NOT OR COULD NOT ACCEPT CHRIST, never WERE PART OF THE ASSEMBLY HE BUILT.

Wrong. Totally wrong.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
...

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


Acts 7:8
8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

The Assembly was Israel, the 12 Tribes, not certain with the 12 tribes. Anyone who rejected circumcision was thrown out of the Assembly, and the Tribal unit.

You need to uncomplicate this for yourself.

 

[Muzungu256]

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

my point about this was that look at the order of resurrection, first Jesus and then those who are Christ's at His coming and when is He coming? You see that would put it post-trib on the futurist scale. because there is no third part of the resurrection mentioned here........ it doesnt say Jesus, then the church, then tthose who are His at His coming........ you see? how can you expain this away????

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

my point about this was that look at the order of resurrection, first Jesus and then those who are Christ's at His coming and when is He coming? You see that would put it post-trib on the futurist scale. because there is no third part of the resurrection mentioned here........ it doesnt say Jesus, then the church, then those who are His at His coming........ you see? how can you expain this away????

Morning Muzungu256,

I think that what you are not understanding is that, the "first resurrection" is not one single event. The first resurrection has stages or phases. Jesus initiated the first resurrection, which is still in operation. Next will be the church dead and living, then the male child/144,000 will be caught up similar to the living church, then the two witnesses will be resurrected and finally the great tribulation saints after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. All of these fall under the banner of the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is in opposition to the last resurrection, which will involve all of the unrighteous dead and which takes place at the end of the millennial period. Those who take part in that resurrection, the second death has power over them. Those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them.

One of the errors that expositors make is when they read "this is the first resurrection," they interpret "first resurrection" as "only resurrection." And by doing so, they have to put the resurrection of the church as taking place after Christ returns to the earth. But another problem with that is, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God and scripture is clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. When you bring this up to them, they either have a preexisting apologetic that they got from the person that they adopted their interpretation from or they provide one.

The proof of what I am saying is this: if the resurrection is one single event where everyone is resurrected and it happens in Rev.20:4-6 after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then what do you call the other resurrections that are shown to take place prior to that one?

 

[Muzungu256]

Morning Muzungu256,

I think that what you are not understanding is that, the "first resurrection" is not one single event. The first resurrection has stages or phases. Jesus initiated the first resurrection, which is still in operation. Next will be the church dead and living, then the male child/144,000 will be caught up similar to the living church, then the two witnesses will be resurrected and finally the great tribulation saints after Christ returns to the earth to end the age. All of these fall under the banner of the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is in opposition to the last resurrection, which will involve all of the unrighteous dead and which takes place at the end of the millennial period. Those who take part in that resurrection, the second death has power over them. Those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them.

One of the errors that expositors make is when they read "this is the first resurrection," they interpret "first resurrection" as "only resurrection." And by doing so, they have to put the resurrection of the church as taking place after Christ returns to the earth. But another problem with that is, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God and scripture is clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. When you bring this up to them, they either have a preexisting apologetic that they got from the person that they adopted their interpretation from or they provide one.

The proof of what I am saying is this: if the resurrection is one single event where everyone is resurrected and it happens in Rev.20:4-6 after Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then what do you call the other resurrections that are shown to take place prior to that one?

can you show me these other resurrections prior to the first in rev 20:4-6???????

 

[valiant]

"an incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9" What kind of incorrect interpretation? The only way you can do that is to change your hermeneutics in the middle of the stream.

You mean by splitting the 69 sevens from the one seven? That is totally unacceptable. It is based on the seventy years of Jeremiah which all agree was one consecutive period.