The Rapture

[Ahwatukee]

Hello PW,

I don't know why this should shock people or surprise people.

It shocks them because it is not supported by the word of God. The end of the age is a one time event which has the Lord returning, physically and visually to the earth. At which time He will establish his millennial kingdom.

Jesus said, "when they say that the Messiah is out in the desert, don't go look. Or He's in the inner room, don't believe it." These would infer his literal, visual return. The reference to the lightning is in reference to it's suddenness and the fact that no one would miss it. No one will have to ask, "is the Lord here." It will be a major event. Scripture never states that Jesus would return as a flash of light like He appeared to Paul.

Jesus is coming to gather the church, followed by his wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. After the 7th bowl is poured out, then Jesus will return to end the age and establish His millennial period.

All that you are doing is continuing to spread false teachings. you twist and bend scripture to say things that are true. And that's the truth!

 

[Ahwatukee]

There's no difference

There is a big difference and they're separated by at least seven years.

1 Thes.4:16 = The gathering of the church

Matt.24:29-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

Not understanding that these are two different events is what causes the error of many expositors.

 

[J7]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Christ's 2nd Coming - gathering of the Global Church


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ's 2nd Coming - gathering of the Global Church

Zero difference

 

[J7]

There is a big difference and they're separated by at least seven years.

1 Thes.4:16 = The gathering of the church

Matt.24:29-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

Not understanding that these are two different events is what causes the error of many expositors.

pftt. Turkey Gobble.

Be not shaken in mind by the deceived

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Muzungu256]

There is a big difference and they're separated by at least seven years.

1 Thes.4:16 = The gathering of the church

Matt.24:29-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

Not understanding that these are two different events is what causes the error of many expositors.

but both of them mention archangel and trumpet and gathering................... so how are they not same event?????????????

 

[Ahwatukee]

but both of them mention archangel and trumpet and gathering................... so how are they not same event?????????????

When reading scripture, the details are important.

1 Thes.4:16 refers to the "trumpet call of God." 1 Cor.15:52 identifies that trumpet call as "the last trumpet"

Matt.24:31 says that he will send his angels out "with a loud trumpet call."

Regarding this, it is important to not just apply these trumpets as being the same just because the word "trumpet" is being used. For there are many trumpets throughout scripture that represent different events.

1 Thes.4:16 takes place at the "last trumpet"

Matt.24:31 the angels are sent out with a "Loud trumpet."

Because of the word "trumpet" this is the reason that many expositors make the claim that the 7th trumpet as being the "last trumpet" and because of this they claim the 7th trumpet as being the last trumpet. In doing this they ignore the fact that the 7th trumpet is a judgment of Wrath and there is nothing at all mentioned in the context anywhere of the church being gathered. So they apply it simply because the word "trumpet" is used.

 

[Ahwatukee]

pftt. Turkey Gobble.

Be not shaken in mind by the deceived

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Continue reading below those verses and you will find that the One who is restraining (Holy Spririt) will be taken out of the way (and the church with him) and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. The church will never see the antichrist.

 

[Ahwatukee]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Christ's 2nd Coming - gathering of the Global Church


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ's 2nd Coming - gathering of the Global Church

Zero difference

Complete difference. Since the wrath of God must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth, if you have the church being gathered at the same time the Lord returns, then you have the church going through the entire wrath of God. Yet scripture makes very clear that those in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the Lord's return to end the age. Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride receiving her fine linen and verse 14 shows the bride following the Lord out of heaven wearing the same fine linen. If the bride/church is seen following the Lord out of heaven, then it demonstrates that the church is already in heaven. How then could they be gathered from the earth if they are already in heaven?

You people believe and teach things you know nothing about.

 

[J7]

Continue reading below those verses and you will find that the One who is restraining (Holy Spririt) will be taken out of the way (and the church with him) and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. The church will never see the antichrist.

How do you make this stuff up? Don't you have a conscience?

Paul says that if people say Jesus has returned, don't be worried, don't get in a fret.

You will know when he has returned.

He will not return before the Man of Sin has been revealed.

So if Paul says the revealing of the man of sin is a precursor, it is obviously something they witness. Ergo they are there, not in cloud cuckoo land.

How, and maybe more importantly, why, do you confabulate?

 

[Ahwatukee]

How do you make this stuff up? Don't you have a conscience?

Paul says that if people say Jesus has returned, don't be worried, don't get in a fret.

You will know when he has returned.

He will not return before the Man of Sin has been revealed.

So if Paul says the revealing of the man of sin is a precursor, it is obviously something they witness. Ergo they are there, not in cloud cuckoo land.

How, and maybe more importantly, why, do you confabulate?

I assure you, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, which is why I contend for the truth and rebuke you people. Yours and others problem is not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

 

[Bladerunner]

pftt. Turkey Gobble.

Be not shaken in mind by the deceived

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

always love it when posters only post the verse and not the chapter and book..... like above...... You do not agree, I understand that... but its one thing to not agree and one thing to prove your reasoning on why you believe a certain way.

The RCC believes that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church but they believe the mother mary is the neck. Which is why they are so obsessed in praying to her instead of Jesus,.....Yet, they can not show by any means that this is anywhere sanctioned by GOD in the Bible.

One other thing: If you believe that 1 Thes.4:16 (The gathering of the church) and Matt.24:29-31 (Jesus' return to the earth to end the age) are the same thing, then I don't think anyone can help you. As Ahwatukee has pointed out the reasons as to their difference many times, you still deny them.

The only time you will/may change your mind is when millions of the church (Believers) simply disappear and you are left behind. The question(s) also left behind when the rapture happens are as follows. Will you change your mind?...or/and.. will you suddenly die (from the fallout of the gathering of his church) preventing you from changing?

It is SO SAD!

 

[J7]

always love it when posters only post the verse and not the chapter and book..... like above...... You do not agree, I understand that... but its one thing to not agree and one thing to prove your reasoning on why you believe a certain way.

The RCC believes that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church but they believe the mother mary is the neck. Which is why they are so obsessed in praying to her instead of Jesus,.....Yet, they can not show by any means that this is anywhere sanctioned by GOD in the Bible.

One other thing: If you believe that 1 Thes.4:16 (The gathering of the church) and Matt.24:29-31 (Jesus' return to the earth to end the age) are the same thing, then I don't think anyone can help you. As Ahwatukee has pointed out the reasons as to their difference many times, you still deny them.

The only time you will/may change your mind is when millions of the church (Believers) simply disappear and you are left behind. The question(s) also left behind when the rapture happens are as follows. Will you change your mind?...or/and.. will you suddenly die (from the fallout of the gathering of his church) preventing you from changing?

It is SO SAD!

Where does it say the Church is removed with the restrainer?

I try not to post reams of scripture because most people can't even digest small chunks.

 

[J7]

2 As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one destined for destruction.

So: Church, don't freak out, Jesus has not come back yet. We won't be regathered until 1) the rebellion has taken place 2) the Lawless one is revealed

4 He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, declaring himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that I told you these things when I was still with you?

How is he revealed? He sits in the Temple of God claiming to be God. As per verses 1-4, you won't be regathered until he has been revealed. SO: you will be regathered sometime after he has sat down in the temple impersonating God.

6 And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who now restrains it is removed. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus[d] will destroy[e] with the breath of his mouth, annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders, 10 and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, 12 so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.13 But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters[f] beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits[g] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 For this purpose he called you through our proclamation of the good news,[h] so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers and sisters,[i] stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and through grace gave us eternal comfort and good hope, 17 comfort your hearts and strengthen them in every good work and word.

Nowhere in the rest of the chapter does it suggest, intimate, or declare that the Church will be regathered when the restrainer is removed. Nowhere.

In fact the total contrary, that in the day Jesus comes he will destroy the Antichrist, '[FONT=&quot]annihilating him by the manifestation of his coming', [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the same day we will be regathered.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[garee]

Continue reading below those verses and you will find that the One who is restraining (Holy Spririt) will be taken out of the way (and the church with him) and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. The church will never see the antichrist.

God, eternal Spirit who has no form is not a man as us .The lie that a supernatural God could have a beginning of days and end of Spirit life…. comes from the father of lies he also has no form .

From what I see you have no idea of what the antichrist/antichrists is and therefore how you could spot one.?

Peter saw it by faith when the Lord rebuked him. The father of lies has no form. Peter learned the things of corrupted men offend the invisible things of God that people like Peter think they could rebuke.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Without parables used to reveal the spiritual understanding Christ spoke not. Did the parables disappear?

First you take away the bride of Christ the church from certain portions of Revelation and now the antichrists (many) disappear?

It would seem that dispensationalism is the great disappearing act?

The antichrists, a froward nation described as those of “no faith ” other than the imaginations of there own fleshly heart as in natural unconverted man as Jews marked those who were still looking for the coming of Christ even after the veil was rent indicating His presence. The number 666 in that parable is asigned to those with no faith

 

[samuel23]

I assure you, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, which is why I contend for the truth and rebuke you people. Yours and others problem is not understanding that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

I know where you can find evidence that there is a pre-trib rapture and then later on a second coming of the Lord, it is in Ahwatukee 3:20 there shall be two returns of Christ. See, it is right there in the bible, now you know that pre-trib is the biblical truth.

 

[PlainWord]

AHW,

It shocks them because it is not supported by the word of God. The end of the age is a one time event which has the Lord returning, physically and visually to the earth.

Indeed, it was a one-time event. So, when did/does the ages end?

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

When was this? When did Christ appear to put away sin by His sacrifice? Any idea??? Just take a stab at it.

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Is 2,000 years being patient? What does it mean to be "at hand."

2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds.

Last days of what? When did Christ speak to them? 2,000 years from now????

33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Does it say "some of these things" or "all of these things." Does "At the doors" mean 2,000 years from now?? Which generation was that? When you tell someone that you'll "be right over." Does that person think you are talking about 10 years from now?

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

Does "hour coming" and "now is" mean 2,000 years later? You are doing a lot of allegorizing my friend,, which is something you are always accusing me of doing.

 

[J7]

That is the Preterist fallacy.

The Lord here (Kyrios) is God the Father
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 613"]
[TR]
[TD]Mat 22:44
[/TD]
[TD]The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
i.e. sit thou at my right hand until I put thine enemies under thy feet = God telling Jesus the he would punish unbelieving Israel (aka the Jews)

 

[Bladerunner]

Where does it say the Church is removed with the restrainer?

I try not to post reams of scripture because most people can't even digest small chunks.

I am not talking about reams of scripture.... Although you can give the book, chapter along with the verse... Very easy.

2 Thes 2:3.."3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

"a falling away"..... ἀποστασία Hebrew with kionia Greek meaning of Apostacia G646 ...(G646 is used also in Acts 21:21)

Definition of 'A falling away' (a loss of belief/faith in God) is in the very next verse where Paul tells us:

2 Thes 2:4..." Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Here Paul tells us why there will be 'a falling away'. In verse 4 he tells us of the antichrist(man of sin, son of perdition) and what he will do in the future. It has not happened yet and did not happen in 70 AD regardless of what some preterist try to tell you...They want you to 'fall away' like they have. Oh, they claim to believe in God but like the RCC, Preterism is a Different Gospel. See Galatians 5:1-4 for this problem

We find throughout the Bible that God tells us why a verse that is apparently unexplainable within verses within that book, is explained elsewhere in the Bible. So you will read to understand the whole. (i.e the Brazen serpent in Genesis)..

 

[samuel23]

In matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Jesus described TWO events, one that occurred in that generation which involved Israel only, and the other being the end of the age which involves the entire world. What occurred in that generation, the destruction of Judea, the fleeing to the mountains in order to save ones life, the days of vengeance and wrath against the Jewish people, and the scattering of the Jews, HAPPENED IN THAT GENERATION. For crying out loud it is an historic fact. Now the world wide persecution of Christians, the move to eliminate believers in Christ off the face of the earth, wars and upheavals of nature, followed by the heavens being shaken and Christ returning to gather the believers, HAS NOT HAPPEDED YET, it is still future.

 

[valiant]

There is a big difference and they're separated by at least seven years.

1 Thes.4:16 = The gathering of the church

Matt.24:29-31 = The Lord's return to the earth to end the age

Not understanding that these are two different events is what causes the error of many expositors.

You mean your distinguishing these things by seven years based on an incorrect interpretation of Daniel 9 is what causes your errors?

The Lord gathers together His own and then immediately judges the world. Its simple really.