The Rapture

[VCO]

Hello Munzungu256,

Matt.24:30-31 is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. When He sends out His angels, they will be gathering those great tribulation saints who make it through that entire seven years alive, in their mortal bodies.

Angels do not gather the church at the time when the dead in Christ are resurrected and the living are changed and caught up. They rise from the grave and meet the Lord in the air. There is no mention of angels gathering the church at the time of t he resurrection.

Furthermore, if angels were gathering the church in Matt.24:30-31, then it would mean that the church would have had to have had to go through the entire wrath of God, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. But this cannot be because, those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf. Therefore, the church cannot be in view as those being gathered by the angels. Those who will be gathered will be the wheat found in the parable of Matt.13:24-30, 36-43, which again will be those great tribulation saints. These will be those, along with Israel, who will repopulate the earth during millennial period.

Regarding the scriptures that claim that believers in Christ will not go through the time of God's wrath, see the following scriptures - Romans 5:9, 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9.

Also, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If you will notice, there is an army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. This army wearing fine linen are those who will have been previously resurrected, the called, chosen and faithful followers, the bride/church who are seen receiving there fine linen, white and clean in Rev.19:6-8. These are the same ones riding on the white horses following Christ out of heaven.

Now all that being said, if the church/bride is shown to already be in heaven and receiving her fine line and then following the Lord out of heaven, how then can they be those whom the angels are gathering in Matt.24:30-31?

The reference to the angels gathering the elect from the "four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is a phrase referring to them gathering them from the entire earth. It not referring to people being gathered in the resurrection. The teaching that Matt.24:30 is representing angels gathering the elect as referring to the rapture, is an erroneous teaching. For Matt.24:30 is not referring to the resurrection of the church.

I hope that this information is helpful

I believe that could be the gathering of the RESURRECTED BODIES of the Tribulation Saints, because their spirits appear in heaven under the Altar the moment they are beheaded, Rev. 6:9-11, and I believe those spirits are coming back with us to receive their immortal glorified bodies, Zech. 14:5.

We are Called OUT by voice of Archangel, to go to the Wedding of the Lamb and our Calling Out could be as much as Seven Years earlier. Traditionally in a Jewish Wedding, the Bridegroom stops short of the Bride's old dwelling place, and He sends a member of the Wedding Party, (such as the Best Man) to go up to just outside the house to SHOUT and call the Bride Out to go meet the Bridegroom. Hence we will be CALLED OUT to go meet the LORD in the Air. We will then be taken to the Wedding Chamber He has built for us, in His Father's House. That has been the Jewish Wedding Traditions for thousands of years.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Revelation 3:10 (CSBBible)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Because you have kept my command to endure, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is going to come on the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

 

[samuel23]

You know there is absolute proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the same return of Christ that Jesus gave the pillars of the church, Peter, James, John, and Andrew in Matt 24. Again for those hard of hearing, there is absolute proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus gave to the apostles in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Because Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus had given the apostles, therefore Paul wrote of a post-trib rapture of the church. This is not an opinion it is something that can be proven...so don't base any hopes on a make believe pre-trib rapture that has never existed in scripture...only in the minds of the deceived.

 

[abcdef]

As I have already told you and proven to you PW, in this scripture, Jesus was not talking about his return to end the age. Below is Luke's version of this scripture:

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning."


So, those who were standing there who would not taste of death, were Peter, James and John. Then the scripture says, "about eight days after he said this" which means that what follows is related to what was previously said.

Those who would not taste of death = Peter, James and John

The kingdom of God = Seeing Jesus in His glorified state

Mark's Gospel: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Matthew's Gospel: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

Conclusion: It was Peter, James and John who did not die before they saw the Son of Man/Jesus coming in His kingdom, which was referring to Peter, James and John seeing the Lord in His glorified state and has nothing to do with Jesus returning to end the age.

The kingdom came on Pentecost, with the power of salvation.

 

[Denadii]

You know there is absolute proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the same return of Christ that Jesus gave the pillars of the church, Peter, James, John, and Andrew in Matt 24. Again for those hard of hearing, there is absolute proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus gave to the apostles in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Because Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus had given the apostles, therefore Paul wrote of a post-trib rapture of the church. This is not an opinion it is something that can be proven...so don't base any hopes on a make believe pre-trib rapture that has never existed in scripture...only in the minds of the deceived.

This post reminds me of that saying..."If you can't convince them with facts, baffle them with BS" What a convoluted mess of words!

 

[Ahwatukee]

This post reminds me of that saying..."If you can't convince them with facts, baffle them with BS" What a convoluted mess of words!

Yes, instead samuel23 would have the living church go through the entire wrath of God, ignoring the promise to believers that we will not go through God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced it on our behalf. He also has a problem with understanding that the gathering of the church is a separated event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. It certainly would be no blessed hope if believers in Christ first had to go through God's wrath right along with the unrighteous.

Paul said, "but you brothers and sisters are not in darkness so that this day should take you by surprise. You are all children of the light and of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."

But according to the interpretation of Samuel and others, they have us belonging to the night and the darkness.

 

[garee]

and we are grafted into that tree. That makes it about US too

We are not grafted into the corrupted flesh .....I would suggest it was never about the corrupted flesh of any nation but was in respect to the new creature.(His eternal bride the church) . Not all Israel are Israel, just as in not all Jews who say they are Jew. The Holy Spirit defines his own terms. There are those Jews born of the flesh as any other nation and those inward of the Spirit of Christ from all nations. We simply do know Christ after any rudiment of this corrupted world.

I would think it is a ""law of faith (Christ’s) not a philosophical theory of no faith as an oral tradition of sinners.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Son of man resisted all forms of worship desiring men know he is not a man as us I would offer we compare the spiritual to the spiritual, or faith (not seen) to the same faith and not that seen to that seen as the wisdom of this world or three wide avenues of the father of lies.

1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Not all who say they fall under the Christian religion are Christians, the new name God purposely named His bride the church.Interestingly the word God assigned, Christian.... literally means resisdents of the city of Christ with Christ as her founder. She is described as coming down prepared as His bride the church

He previously before changing the name of His bride called His people Israel or a Jew .Christ of His own flesh made it clear it profits for nothing. It is His unseen Spirit that gives spirit life. He desires to worshipped as Spirit….not that seen, flesh. He is not a man as us, never was never could be. God remains without mother or father beginning of days or end of spirit life as supernatural .

 

[Bladerunner]

and we are grafted into that tree. That makes it about US too

Ok but since we are a limb, we have a different destiny. Those Jews that believe in Jesus Christ are us. The remnant of Jews that live through Daniel's 70th week, will be the people who Jesus will rule the millennium through.


I cannot comprehend how the preterist can sit there and call God a Liar. How they can sit there and flippantly throw off the certainty of a Curse being brought on them from a covenant made long, long ago. I cannot imagine how they stand there and let false teachers persuade them to give up their souls for eternity, I cannot understand how they will not follow the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and find out for themselves. It is SO SAD!

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes, instead samuel23 would have the living church go through the entire wrath of God, ignoring the promise to believers that we will not go through God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced it on our behalf. He also has a problem with understanding that the gathering of the church is a separated event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. It certainly would be no blessed hope if believers in Christ first had to go through God's wrath right along with the unrighteous.

Paul said, "but you brothers and sisters are not in darkness so that this day should take you by surprise. You are all children of the light and of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."

But according to the interpretation of Samuel and others, they have us belonging to the night and the darkness.

Hey we all know that if you are going to get married,,,,,You have to beat the ?ell out of your Bride and then marry her. OH MY....these preterist must not be married?

 

[Denadii]

Ok but since we are a limb, we have a different destiny. Those Jews that believe in Jesus Christ are us. The remnant of Jews that live through Daniel's 70th week, will be the people who Jesus will rule the millennium through.


I cannot comprehend how the preterist can sit there and call God a Liar. How they can sit there and flippantly throw off the certainty of a Curse being brought on them from a covenant made long, long ago. I cannot imagine how they stand there and let false teachers persuade them to give up their souls for eternity, I cannot understand how they will not follow the Bereans in Acts 17:11 and find out for themselves. It is SO SAD!

I'm not arguing with you there. My point in saying what I said was this...Not all Christians will go in the rapture, only those who have made themselves ready..The rest? Yes. Revelations talks of them too.

 

[garee]

As I have already told you and proven to you PW, in this scripture, Jesus was not talking about his return to end the age. Below is Luke's version of this scripture:

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning."


So, those who were standing there who would not taste of death, were Peter, James and John. Then the scripture says, "about eight days after he said this" which means that what follows is related to what was previously said.

Those who would not taste of death = Peter, James and John

The kingdom of God = Seeing Jesus in His glorified state

Mark's Gospel: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Matthew's Gospel: Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom

Conclusion: It was Peter, James and John who did not die before they saw the Son of Man/Jesus coming in His kingdom, which was referring to Peter, James and John seeing the Lord in His glorified state and has nothing to do with Jesus returning to end the age.

All who witnessed the ressurection saw Chrsit comming into his kingdom which is not of this world never was never will be. The veil was rent, the darknes came, the eartquke opened the graves.

When we witnessed it by faith through his witnes the word, we saw the the same kingdom not of this world .As a kingdom of Priests ammassaordors in a foriegn land we have the opportuinty to offer the gospel . Christ who is not a man as us will not literal reign as a man here under the sun.

He is reigning in full capacity today, on the last day when the earth in the twinling of the eye goes up in smoke the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of God, not before or after.


2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth "know we him" no more.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes, instead samuel23 would have the living church go through the entire wrath of God, ignoring the promise to believers that we will not go through God's wrath and that because Jesus already experienced it on our behalf. He also has a problem with understanding that the gathering of the church is a separated event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. It certainly would be no blessed hope if believers in Christ first had to go through God's wrath right along with the unrighteous.

Paul said, "but you brothers and sisters are not in darkness so that this day should take you by surprise. You are all children of the light and of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness."

But according to the interpretation of Samuel and others, they have us belonging to the night and the darkness.

Samuel23 is trying to confuse and replace facts about the one person (Paul) in the Bible whose writings are hard to understand in the best days... I have come to realize that it may have been written that way on purpose especially for the latter days such as now.

 

[samuel23]

As usual nobody was interested in the proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus described in the gospels. To the honest person who really wants to know, there is actual proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the rapture of the church that Jesus gave the apostles. You can easily find it now in the bible, or you can wait until the judgment of God and find it out then. Better now then later, now all you have to do is repent for being a hard headed fool, then you may get to experience some of the anger of God against lying.

 

[Denadii]

Samuel23 is trying to confuse and replace facts about the one person (Paul) in the Bible whose writings are hard to understand in the best days... I have come to realize that it may have been written that way on purpose especially for the latter days such as now.

You find Paul is hard to understand? Why?

 

[Denadii]

As usual nobody was interested in the proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus described in the gospels. To the honest person who really wants to know, there is actual proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the rapture of the church that Jesus gave the apostles. You can easily find it now in the bible, or you can wait until the judgment of God and find it out then. Better now then later, now all you have to do is repent for being a hard headed fool, then you may get to experience some of the anger of God against lying.

You need to repent of being so convoluted in your reasoning. Repent of excluding the Holy Spirit from your studies and looking at yourself as being more than you are. While you're doing that we can repent of not understanding your gobbledegook.

 

[Bladerunner]

You find Paul is hard to understand? Why?

I did not say I did not understand Paul's writings, however, I am still realizing little caveats of information from them even unto today. Paul's writings was in the hardest of times. Misunderstandings were among the 'Baby Christians' back then as it is today. Of course the Apostates of today have the advantage over the them as they have a Bible with both OT and NT to read.

 

[VCO]

You know there is absolute proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the same return of Christ that Jesus gave the pillars of the church, Peter, James, John, and Andrew in Matt 24. Again for those hard of hearing, there is absolute proof that Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus gave to the apostles in Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Because Paul wrote to the Thess about the return of Christ that Jesus had given the apostles, therefore Paul wrote of a post-trib rapture of the church. This is not an opinion it is something that can be proven...so don't base any hopes on a make believe pre-trib rapture that has never existed in scripture...only in the minds of the deceived.

So all the Messianic Jews that KNOW the Wedding Customs like the back of their hand are wrong, and you are right. LOL. I am sorry I will trust their understanding far, far more than I will every Trust your understanding.


The Bride of Christ


Jewish Wedding Customs and their place in Jesus' teachings


BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: JEWISH MARRIAGE CUSTOMS


Jewish Wedding Traditions


http://thectp.org/Notes/Bride/Bride_2.pdf

 

[Muzungu256]

can someone point out to me what is the difference between 1 thessalonians 4:16 and matthew 24:29-31

because why would Jesus say different things to the disciples then later on through paul switch His message??????????

 

[PlainWord]

with the exception of Chapters 1-3, Israel is all revelation is all about.

Pretty much. Add in the Church and Rome (and a few spiritual actors) as characters in this "play" and we have a complete cast. Do we actually agree on something? That would be amazing.

The Bible begins in Genesis with the start of Israel and concludes in Revelation with its end. They are book end chapters in a story about God's people and His plan for them. The Church comes on the scene in the NT and with it, the path for salvation for the Gentiles. Salvation came first to the Jew, then the Greek. God's treatment of Jew and Gentile are now one and the same and has been since the destruction of Israel.

 

[PlainWord]

can someone point out to me what is the difference between 1 thessalonians 4:16 and matthew 24:29-31

because why would Jesus say different things to the disciples then later on through paul switch His message??????????

Both describe His Second Coming (Parousia) return of ~70 AD. He came in the "clouds of heaven" visible as extreme brightness ("...the brightness of His coming" as Paul says) and the whole earth ("Tribes of Israel") saw Him, even those who pierced Him (the Roman legions that had surrounded Jerusalem).

I don't know why this should shock people or surprise people. After all, Christ appeared exactly the same way to Paul on the road to Damascus not many years earlier. The wicked religious leaders of the day ("faithless and perverse generation") murdered their Messiah after killing many of the previous prophets sent to them from Isaiah to James, Christ's half brother. They killed Christ with the help of the Romans. In Luke 19 and 21 Christ described "(His) days of vengeance upon this same wicked generation echoing the prophesy of John the Baptist (Mat 3).

Moses was given the first warning of this in Deu 28:45-68. Daniel had visions of the end of his nation ("end of the ages") and so did Zechariah and other prophets (that all might be fulfilled). After 2,000 years as a nation, Israel would come to a devastating end (Great Tribulation) and would remain gone as a nation for another 2,000 years. This is pretty basic stuff and shouldn't be that hard to understand. You already understand most of it.

 

[J7]

can someone point out to me what is the difference between 1 thessalonians 4:16 and matthew 24:29-31

because why would Jesus say different things to the disciples then later on through paul switch His message??????????

There's no difference