"EIS" OR "DIA" OR "HOTI" ??

plaintalk · Jun 13, 2017

D12-"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mark 16: 16) Everyone who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved. He, Jesus our Lord, has the correct interpretation, the correct understanding. "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death." "John 8: 51" "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14: 15) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matt. 7: 19) God bless.

mailmandan · Jun 13, 2017

plaintalk said:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

*If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is DESCRIPTIVE of believers. Don't confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture (John 8:51; Matthew 7:19) with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26).

DJ2 · Jun 13, 2017

mailmandan said:

What is the point of "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"? If baptism is not part of the work of salvation why would Jesus make such a statement? Of course those who do not believe are condemned!! Jesus does not need to add "and baptized" to prove they are lost.Your focusing on such baseless reasoning as this is nothing more then grasping at straws. Reading this simple sentence and coming to this conclusion is both absurd and forced. No one would write like this and expect such a understanding, no one.

Don't confuse general statements such as John 3:16 with more definite statements such as Mark 16:16. By understanding this simple rule of writing composition you will fully understand the most important thesis statement of all, the Great Commission. (Matt. 28:16-20)

The existence of verses such as Mark 16:16 makes the notion of John 3:16 as being definite impossible. The Bible does not conflict with itself. John 3:16 must be general for Mark 16:16 to not contradict.

plaintalk · Jun 13, 2017

Mailmandan- having received all authority, Jesus instructed his eleven disciples to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them and teaching them to observe all things commanded. If it is necessary to be a disciple then it sounds like it is necessary to be baptized. If it is not absolutely necessary to be baptized, then it sounds like it is not absolutely necessary to be a disciple. (Matt. 28: 18- 20) In another account Jesus instructed His people to go into all the world and preach the gospel—death for our sins, burial, resurrection—to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved, those that disbelieved will be condemned. Again it sounds to me that just believing by itself, although necessary, is not sufficient. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. (John 3: 36) No, salvation does not rest on faith, it rest on grace. Faith is the introductory connection to grace but it is not the only connection. Both faith and love are perfected by obedience.
We are commanded not only to believe the gospel but to obey the gospel. IMO we do this—die, buried, arise—when we are baptized into Christ and into his death. (Rom. 6: 3-7) Is it absolutely necessary to die with Him? Yes, I believe it is, if we hope to live with Him. Those who do not obey the gospel—be baptized—await eternal destruction. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)

Hermeneutics- great emphasis is placed upon believing as it is the introductory factor into the grace of God but it is not the only factor nor is it the greatest factor. (1 Cor. 13: 13) Faith without love is meaningless; without works it is dead and useless. Did Jesus mention hope and love in those verses you cited? Why not? Are they necessary? God reveals His will as he wills.
Descriptive or prescriptive? Wow! John 8: 51 Jesus begins with the double amen which usually signifies something important. It sounds like the believer needs to keep His word, not merely believe if he wants to live. Matt. 7: 19 Not only do we need to believe but we need to bear good fruit or suffer the consequences. Our faith works in love with the works of faith Jesus has prescribed, to perfect our faith; we are saved by a perfected faith, a loving, obedient faith. We obey not to score brownie points but to perfect our faith. God bless.

mailmandan · Jun 14, 2017

DJ2 said:

The point is general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized, yet Jesus clarifies the first clause with, "but he who does not believe will be condemned. *Notice the AND between believes AND is baptized, clearly making a "distinction" between believing AND getting baptized afterwards. *Now notice that 9 different times, Jesus connects receiving eternal life with "BELIEVES" (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) yet omits AND is baptized. *Now why would Jesus do that if water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation? *He would not omit baptism in those 9 verses if it was absolutely necessary for salvation. Baptism is not part of the work of salvation because salvation is through faith, not works.

Absolutely! Unfortunately, many people believe in their baptism (along with other works) to save them, but they don't truly believe IN HIM and don't even realize it.

Yes He does if it was absolutely necessary for salvation.

Mark 16:16 is composed of two basic statements. 1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2. He who does not believe will be condemned. Obviously, the determining factor regarding whether one is saved or condemned is whether or not he BELIEVES. While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would have had to be included, that being: "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." Yet, neither of these statements is found in the verse. Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16. Those that do so are basing their argument on faulty logic.

Your argument here is just Campbellite smoke and mirrors.

We have here a command of Jesus to make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, yet man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Actually, you have this backwards. No scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular, less clear verse is to be subservient to the multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa. For instance, if we find a verse that "on the surface" seems to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, but then have multiple other verses that teach otherwise, are we to allow the odd verse to alter the clear meaning of the many? NO. Through a desperate attempt to accommodate your biased church doctrine, your faulty human logic amounts to flawed hermeneutics. Scripture must harmonize with Scripture. "He who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18) yet where does the Bible say, "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" *IT DOESN'T.

mailmandan · Jun 14, 2017

plaintalk said:

It may "sound" like that to you because that's what your itching ears want to hear, but that's not the case. Believing in Christ is sufficient (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) or else these verses are a lie. God forbid! For you to say believing it not sufficient is for you to say the OBJECT of our belief (death, burial and resurrection of Christ) is not sufficient to save.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). I see that the word "obey" in John 3:36 (NASB) has confused you into believing that salvation is by works. In John 3:36, "He that BELIEVES on the Son has everlasting life".. *Notice that this BELIEF is not in yourself, getting baptized, church attendance, or any other type of good work. Notice also that this BELIEF is not in Jesus Christ "plus something else," otherwise the BELIEF (trust, reliance) would not be "ON THE SON".

In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, obeying the Son here does not mean salvation by works, but obey by choosing to believe on the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe on the Son. The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NKJV says "does not believe the Son" and the NIV says "rejects the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to not obey the Son means to reject His message by refusing to believe on the Son. Seeking salvation by works is not obeying Him.

I have discussed this with you numerous times before. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete, just like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years before offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

*We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe/trust in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

False. You are confusing the picture of the reality, with the reality itself. We do this when we believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

False. The gospel is not "water baptized or condemned." Those who do not obey the gospel are those who refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). In regards to Romans 6:3-7, you are confusing the picture with the reality. *As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains: "The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it". It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

You continue to confuse descriptive passages of Scripture with prescriptive passages of Scripture and you also confuse God's will for us to become saved and God's will for us after we have been saved.

If someone has genuine saving faith in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for them to have NO love at all. Paul uses hyperbole (obvious and intentional exaggeration) about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love.

Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love though. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith + acts of love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven.

So in 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love. All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

I already explained this to you here in post #301 - http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ches-baptism-commanded-remission-sins-16.html

"Keep His word" is descriptive of believers, not unbelievers. Keep His word is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. It's not about must or else, but will.

Bearing good fruit is also descriptive of believers, not unbelievers and is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. We are saved by the former (believing in Him) and not the latter (bearing good fruit) yet your focus relies heavily on the latter with a flawed emphasis on the former, which is typical of someone who teaches salvation by works.

What you are saying here is that we are saved by faith (your version of faith) + obedience/works. Was Abraham's faith accounted for righteousness when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 or not until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and his faith was said to be perfected in James 2:22? Obviously, it was in Genesis 15:6. Why do you continue to pervert the gospel of Christ? which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). When will you BELIEVE?

plaintalk · Jun 14, 2017

Mailmandan- The proof of the meaning Matt. 28: 18-20 and Mark 16: 15- 17 and Luke 24: 40- 49 is what the apostles commanded 3,000 on that first Pentecost a few days later.
(1) the apostles taught the gospel (Acts 2: 14-36, with many other words v. 40, exhorting them “Be saved from this perverse generation.”
(2) 3,000 believed, “they were pierced to the heart.” Were they saved at that moment? No, they were still in their sin as shown by v 38.
(3) they asked, “What shall we do?” There was something to be done, a response, a work. Yes after believing they must “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” Remember Jesus said, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” The Apostles were following Jesus teaching not the gobbledygook we hear today. What kind of works did they do? Works of faith! (1 Thess. 1: 3), obedience of faith (Rom. 1: 5), they were obedient to the faith (Acts 6: 7) You see works based on performance don’t save (Gal. 3: 12; Eph. 2: 8,9)
(4) Unlike today, those that received the word were baptized. (Acts 2: 41) No questions as to the necessity, no arguments about denying Christ. They were like the eunuch who after Christ was preached to him (Acts 8: 35) said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?’ (Acts 8: 36)
(5) the promise- believers, who repent and are baptized in the name of Christ, were promised the gift of the Holy Spirit. Who was promised? Jews and Gentiles, everyone God calls to Himself. (Acts 2: 39)
(5) these folks were saved and added to the number of those being saved. (Act 2: 41, 47)
God bless.

Magenta · Jun 14, 2017

In all four gospels, John the Baptist makes a distinction between water baptism
and the baptism effected by Jesus Christ, Who baptizes with the Holy Spirit of
God (two gospels also say "and with fire"), and Who Himself said the flesh
counts for nothing, and that we must be born again of the Spirit of God.

This is the salvic baptism: being supernaturally born into Him from our
previous life in Adam, which would have otherwise ended in the second
death. Being born again into Christ, we are promised life ever after, for
He overcame sin and death on our behalf due to His great love for us.

Jesus holds the keys to life and death.

In Him we live and move and have our being.

plaintalk · Jun 14, 2017

Mailmandan- that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. (John 3: 15) When Jesus said, “whoever believes,” He meant more than mental assent, “merely believing” with the mind. We find several instances where people believed but apparently were not approved. (John 2: 23- 25; 12: 41, 42) IMO, here, Jesus was speaking about believing with the whole mind, heart and every aspect of their being. This believing includes love and hope and the obedience of faith. (1 Cor. 13: 13; Heb. 5: 9) Eternal life is “in Christ” (1John 5: 10, 11) and by faith we are baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6; 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27; 1 Cor. 12: 13) Since all spiritual blessings are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3), it would seem absolutely essential to be baptized into Christ.
God bless.

mailmandan · Jun 15, 2017

plaintalk said:

Your alleged proof may accommodate your biased biased church doctrine but it's still no proof at all.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). Water baptism is not a part of the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). In Acts 2:37, their "belief" at that point was merely "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked "trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation." In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, when they gladly received his word (through repentance/faith), the change of mind was complete and the end result was saving belief in Christ.

We are not saved by works, including water baptism (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

*In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Your watered down "works based" false gospel is gobbledygook.

Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that we are saved by works that are produced out of faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. I've heard works-salvationists try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith and end up making no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith.

Here we go again with the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works nonsense. Works based on performance would include any works that we "add" to salvation through faith. You just can't get that through your head. "Obedience of faith" and "obedient to the faith" does not mean that we are saved by works of obedience that follow faith. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as “obeying the gospel” (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives which result in obedience to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR or UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR or UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced "enough" obedience. We have access by FAITH into GRACE… (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience." We are saved through faith first, then "unto" obedience (works).

Today we receive the word through repentance/faith then are afterwards water baptized. What prevented the eunuch from being baptized? If he BELIEVED. What happens when we BELIEVE before water baptism? See Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31 etc..

Again, In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

They were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in Acts 10:43;47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

mailmandan · Jun 15, 2017

plaintalk said:

Yes, Jesus did mean more that "mental assent" belief. We believe in our heart and not just in our head. In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" yet they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are not saved. (Acts 16:31)

That's because their belief was superficial in nature and fell short of genuine belief in Christ that would have resulted in salvation.

This believing includes entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ and our trust and reliance is in Christ alone for salvation. Your misinterpretation of 1 Cor 13:13 and Heb 5:9 results in your erroneous conclusion that salvation is through faith + acts of love + having enough hope + obedience/works. What a mess! Those who truly believe have received the love of God in their hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to them (believers - Romans 5:5). If we have faith, then we have hope. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) and multiple acts of obedience which are produced from saving faith in Christ are WORKS and we are not saved by works. You have this all mixed up.

Keep reading: 12 - He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It's by or "out of" faith that we get water baptized. Faith is not water baptism and faith precedes water baptism. I see that you continue to confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism which causes much confusion for you. As Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ and not water baptized into the body of Christ. In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses." (1 Corinthians 10:2) Now were the Israelites literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Of course not. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Moses was their leader then as Christ is now and so Paul uses ei concerning the relation of the Israelites to Moses as he does of our baptism in relation to Christ

plaintalk · Jun 15, 2017

Mailmandan writes- “Again, In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).”
Response- “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2: 38)
(1) Was this meant to disassociate baptism from forgiveness of sins, as you allege? Daniel B. Wallace who wrought Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics, who is in your camp, a ‘faith alone guy, wrote of your argument: “Such a view is an acceptable way of handling eis, but its subtlety and awkwardness are against it.” pg. 370. This is a nice way of saying it is bogus.
(2) Why then did Peter switch from the second person pleural to the third person singular back to the second person pleural? IMO he was emphasizing the necessity of each person being baptized, along with repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Exactly the opposite of what you are alleging.
(3) Acts 2: 41- those who received the word were baptized.
(4) Acts 22: 16- those who were baptized, had their sins washed away. Yes, I recall your comments about calling on the name of the Lord. IMO they are immaterial.
(5) All spiritual blessings including redemption, the forgiveness of sins are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3, 7; Col. 1: 14) and we are baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27; 1 Cor. 12: 13) Is it absolutely necessary to be in Crist?
(5) Those that die with Christ to the old self are freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 3-7) We die with Christ in baptism. Is it absolutely necessary to die with Christ?
(6) Those that obey that form of doctrine-death, burial and resurrection- are freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 17, 18) Is it absolutely necessary to die with Christ in baptism, to be buried with Christ in baptism and to arise with Him in baptism?
(7) There is nothing parenthetical about the one baptism, it is one of the seven pillars of the unity of the faith. (Eph. 4: 3-6)
(8) Most people understand that Cornelius was an exceptional case and that the promise of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2: 38, 39 was to all mankind.
May God bless us all with understanding.

oldhermit · Jun 15, 2017

plaintalk said:

The argument you have referred to here is an old one that attempts to manipulate the original grammar to change the meaning. Grammatically, it simply does not work. The simple fact of the matter is that “repent and be baptize each one of you” DO agree in both person and in number. Allow me to explain.

From the Byzantine text: Πέτρος δὲ ἔφη πρὸς αὐτούς, Μετανοήσατε, καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν, καὶ λήψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος.

“Peter also said to them (third person plural), repent (second person plural) and be baptized (third person singular) each one of you (second person plural) in the name of Jesus Christ into forgiveness of sins, and you will receive (second person plural) the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Ὑμῶν – “each one of you,” is second person plural and modifies βαπτισθήτω which is third person plural. Ὑμῶν agrees in person and in number with μετανοήσατε – repent. There is nothing remarkable or out of the ordinary about the grammatical syntax of this verse in the Greek. He said the same thing to every one of those present laying down the same command to each one. To whom was he speaking? All of them, third person plural. Who did he command to repent? All of them, second person plural. Who did he command to be baptized? Every one of them second person plural; And these two imperatives are joined together by the conjunction καὶ thus are not grammatically separated. Although the word βαπτισθήτω is third person singular spelling, it is modified by ὑμῶν – “each one of you” which is second person plural. Ὑμῶν then stands as a modifier for both μετανοήσατε, and βαπτισθήτω.Who would receive the remission of sins? Everyone who obeyed the linked imperatives to repent and be baptized,second person plural. Who would receive the Holy Spirit as a gift? Everyone of them who obeyed the linked imperatives to repent and be baptized, second person plural. The reference point for the two imperatives and the future indicative – “will receive,” produces exactly the same results at the same time for the same respondents – “the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The argument that because “be baptized” is third person singular and “repent” is second person plural means Peter had to have given separate instructions to two different groups of people with differing results. Beyond the obvious absurdity of this argument is the simple fact that ἕκαστος ὑμῶν – “each one of you” renders the argument invalid. The argue is made that because “be baptized” is third person singular it cannot be linked to the second person plural command to “repent.” What this argument refuses to acknowledge is that “be baptized” is accompanied by a second person plural modifier – ἕκαστος ὑμῶν – “each one of you.” So, “be baptized” can only be understood in connection with its second person plural modifiers. It is actually just as simple as this, grammatically βαπτισθήτω cannot be separated as a third person singular verb from its modifiers ἕκαστος ὑμῶν which is second person plural. Therefore, both verbs under discussion are treated as second person imperatives both resulting in the same outcome – forgiveness of sin. I do not know how much more plainly this could have possibly be written in the Greek.

Grammatically, verse 38 shows a narrowing of the focus from a general admonition for all to “repent” to a narrowing of focus on each individual who make up the αὐτούς of the first clause to the action that is designated to follow. The imperative “be baptized” is reflexive and is modified by “each of you” and directs both imperatives to the entire assembly.

mailmandan · Jun 16, 2017

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson comments on Acts 2:38 - he shows how the grammar of this verse can be used to support more than one interpretation of this text. He then reaches this conclusion: "One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received." The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

My conclusion is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect harmony and Scripture must harmonize with Scripture*

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. *Speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and these believers were speaking in tongues BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 16:31 - So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

mailmandan · Jun 16, 2017

Elsewhere, AT Robertson said - Change of number from plural to singular and of person from second to third. This change marks a break in the thought here that the English translation does not preserve. The first thing to do is make a radical and complete change of heart and life. Then let each one be baptized after this change has taken place, and the act of baptism be performed “in the name of Jesus Christ” (εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου Χριστου — en tōi onomati Iēsou Christou). *So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received.”

Greek scholar E Calvin Beisner said something similar - In short, the most precise English translation of the relevant clauses, arranging them to reflect the switches in person and number of the verbs, would be, “You (plural) repent for the forgiveness of your (plural) sins, and let each one (singular) of you be baptized (singular)….” Or, to adopt our Southern dialect again, “Y’all repent for the forgiveness of y’all’s sins, and let each one of you be baptized….”

When I showed this translation to the late Julius Mantey, one of the foremost Greek grammarians of the twentieth century and co-author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (originally published in 1927), he approved and even signed his name next to it in the margin of my Greek New Testament. *These arguments, lexical and grammatical, stand independently. Even if one rejects both lexical meanings of for, he still must face the grammatical argument, and even if he rejects the grammatical conclusion, he still must face the lexical argument.

Does Acts 2:38 prove baptismal remission? No, it doesn’t even support it as part of a cumulative case. — E. Calvin Beisner

Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explains in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: It is possible that to a first-century Jewish audience (as well as to Peter), the idea of baptism might incorporate both the spiritual reality and the physical symbol (although only the reality remits sins). In other words, when one spoke of baptism, he usually meant both ideas—the reality and the ritual. Peter is shown to make the strong connection between these two in chapters 10 and 11. In 11:15-16 he recounts the conversion of Cornelius and friends, pointing out that at the point of their conversion they were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After he had seen this, he declared, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit…” (10:47). The point seems to be that if they have had the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit via spiritual baptism, there ought to be a public testimony/acknowledgment via water baptism as well. This may not only explain Acts 2:38 (that Peter spoke of both reality and picture, though only the reality removes sins), but also why the NT speaks of only baptized believers (as far as we can tell): Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

*So neither AT Robertson, E Calvin Beisner or Daniel Wallace agree that water baptism is what obtains the remission of sins and that's good enough for me, but those who are more interested in accommodating their biased church doctrine than they are in harmonizing Scripture with Scripture and accepting the truth will end up believing whatever they want to believe.

We can argue "he said/you said/they said" all day long, but what ULTIMATELY settles the issue for me is that *SCRIPTURE MUST HARMONIZE WITH SCRIPTURE* and faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18) is in PERFECT HARMONY.

I at one time had spent some time in the church of Christ (several years ago) so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, with a heavy emphasis on water baptism. Roman Catholics and Mormons make the same error and even they all have a difference in style, it's the same in substance -- "works based" false gospel.

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

mailmandan said:

Greek scholar A. T. Robertson comments on Acts 2:38 - he shows how the grammar of this verse can be used to support more than one interpretation of this text. He then reaches this conclusion: "One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received." The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koin, generally (Robertson, Grammar, page 592).

My conclusion is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect harmony and Scripture must harmonize with Scripture*

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.

Acts 10:45 - And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. *Speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) and these believers were speaking in tongues BEFORE water baptism.

Acts 10:47 - "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Acts 15:7 - And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Acts 15:8 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 16:31 - So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Amen...well said mailmandan!

Those gentiles received the Holy Spirit "before" they were baptized in water and had believed in the forgiveness of sins in the gospel message of Christ in Acts 10 when the true gospel was preached by Peter.

This is a word-for-word account of the gospel being preached. by Peter and the same message was given by Paul to Jewish people in Acts 13. My goodness how it is different from what we hear in some of the evangelical circles.

plaintalk · Jun 16, 2017

The events of Acts 2 and their order is not established by the acceptance of participants of this forum or any church, they are established because they are the word of God and they are consistent with Jesus' instruction to His disciples shortly before His ascension and with the teaching of Eph. 2: 8- 10. We are created by God in Christ for good works; these good works are works of faith and are consistent with salvation by grace through faith but in my opinion are not consistent with salvation by grace through faith alone. By God's doing we are in Christ by faith through repentance and baptism. (1 Cor. 1: 30; Rom. 6: 3; Acts 2: 38 )
God bless.

plaintalk · Jun 16, 2017

Grace 777X 70- To my knowledge, no one was promised that they would receive the Holy Spirit as Cornelius did; on the other hand Jesus received the Holy Spirit after He was baptized in water as an example to us; both Jew and Gentile and as many as God would call to Himself (that's everyone) were promised they would receive the Holy Spirit after baptism in water in the name of Christ. The Samaritans received the Spirit after they were baptized (Acts 8: 15, 16); the people at Ephesus received the Spirit after they were baptized (Acts 19: 5, 6) If you have another example besides Cornelius, please cite it. Please tell us what the 'true gospel" is. We should remember, It appears that all the people who received the word, were baptized and added to their number. (Acts 2: 41)
God bless.

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

Being water baptized no more saves people then Donald Duck and Daffy Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

There has been more then enough proof to show that being baptized into Christ is the true baptism that saves people and water baptism is a representation of what has already happened to us when we believed the gospel message of the forgiveness of sins that is in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

To continually go over this religious nonsense is a complete waste of time.

DJ2 · Jun 16, 2017

Magenta said:

What is this "distinction" that John made between his baptism (repentance/remission of sins) and Jesus's baptism? Has one been changed or negated in favor of the other? Are both needed or are they optional? These are the questions that are not being answered. Salvic baptism?

"EIS" OR "DIA" OR "HOTI" ??

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