The Rapture

tanakh · Jun 13, 2017

To say that what happened in AD 70 was what Revelation was referring to and no future greater fulfillment will take placeis to ignore the way prophecy is presented in the Bible. Many Prophecy's have have more application. There are passages that refer to the destruction of Babylon for example. Using the AD 70 argument one would assume that all references in Revelation refer to the original city and nothing else like it will happen again.

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

VCO said:

So one hour is equal to seven years? And that ignores the fact that the whole world means the Roman world (Rom 1.8).

And besides you are trying to suggest that the church at Philadelphia was expected to wait 2000 years for an answer?

I have never tried to convince you. You are too tied up with Darby. My posts are to help others to see your gross errors.

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

tanakh said:

No, I said Matthew 24. Revelation speaks of the future in John's day, leading up to the end. The 'fall of Babylon' has occurred a number of times in history. It is the continuing city which is against God. It has fallen many times.

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Again (and this is like talking to a wall), The GT wasn't when Rome broke through and destroyed the Temple and city. That was the end of the GT. The GT began when Rome came in 66 AD. The GT was the suffering inside the city. It climaxed when Titus came and surrounded the city more effectively shutting off the food supply. The suffering inside Jerusalem from starvation, disease and the sword of the zealots (especially for the 5 months leading up to Aug of 70 AD) was the Great Tribulation.

Heeding Christ's warnings of the Olivet, the Church fled the city to Pella during the brief period when Vespasian returned to Rome and before Titus replaced him. Look it up if you don't believe me. 4th century church fathers, Eusebius and Epiphanius of Salamis record that before Titus surrounded the city in early 70 AD, the entire church fled hearing a divine voice and not one Christian was lost during the GT.

The descriptions of Deu 28, Mat 24, Dan 9, Zec 11, and much of Rev etc exactly match what happened to Israel and Jerusalem during the GT. Zec 11 describes the events leading up to and including the GT. All the cities of Galilee, Samaria and Judea were destroyed, the people fled to Jerusalem then after 5 brutal months the city was taken. 1.1 million Jews were killed and only 97K survived and many of them were led away captive to Rome where many will killed by wild beasts in the Coliseum.

But since you refuse to read the writings of the early church and contemporary historians like Tacitus and Josephus, you have no idea what you are talking about. SAD.

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2017

Bladerunner said:

The Abomination of Desolation was the Roman solders as confirmed in Luke 21:20.

As for the covenant, two were broken ~ 70 AD. Have you not read Zec 11?

10 And I took my staff, Beauty, and cut it in two, that I might break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD made it impossible to follow the Law of Moses breaking the covenant God made with the Israelites on Mt. Sinai. The other covenant broken can be found in Jer 33:

25 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.’”

The covenant of "Day and Night" was broken at the crucifixion. From ascension forward Christ rules the spiritual kingdom from His heavenly throne. This fact is found in multiple passages (Heb 12:22, Gal 4:26, Dan 4:26, Isa 25:6-8, John 18:36, Mt 22:21, Acts 2:22-36, Heb 8:1, Rev 3:21 to name a few) and is a cornerstone of Christian doctrine.

Not understanding the timing and purpose of the GT can affect one's understanding of so much else?

garee · Jun 13, 2017

VCO said:

When the Holy Spirit (God is not a man as us) comes on the last day in the twinkling of the eye, all saints from the beginning of time will receive their new promised incorruptible bodies which will be neither Jew or Gentile male or female. But a new creation that will never die or grow older..

There is no promise to come in a vision of men what men were like before they died as at the transfiguration (flesh and blood).The real corrupted fleshly bodies of those two had long returned to the dust. And there new born again spirit is at rest as with any saint that leaves this realm under the Sun
.
Christ could not appear this time as Melchisedek a vision (no flesh and blood). God is not a man recognized by (flesh and blood) walking by sight.

It was necessary that Christ be clothed with the actual corrupted flesh typified as sinful as that of mankind in order to put away sin in the flesh. Christ who again is not a man as us did not appear as a theophany or vision like that of Moses and Elijah in that parable used to represent all that is written in the "law and the prophets" (sola scriptura, the two witnesses of God spoken of in Revelation.

Many witnessed that work of Christ pouring out His Spirit, as if His Spirit (not seen) was blood, but used that seen as a demonstration of that not seen….. the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (the six days he did work) Eternal God remains without mother or father beginning of days or end of Spirit life. God does not have flesh and blood as rudiments of this corrupted creation

Why men attempt to make God into a man (give him an outward appearance a face) He remains a mystery to them. It was by that kind of ideology that caused the fall to begin with, making a God who again is not a man who has no form into a creature so that men could walk by sight putting thier faith in that seen.

He will come in the clouds, with clouds representing the invisible presence of God on the last day. The last days, the new covenant began when Christ said; it is finished…(not will be finished years later) the veil was rent that represented the temporal flesh used in that demonstration of the actual work not seen the pouring out of His Spirit on flesh. It was the end of temple worship (ceremonial laws) using the flesh of a Jew in parables. The “time of reformation” had come restoring the government of God to a prior time. It was the time of Jacob’s tribulation that is still beginning affected shown by the unbelief (no faith) Jews that are still looking for a fleshly Jesus to come and destroy all the gentiles and set up a kingdom on this corrupted earth

What seems odd to me is when most people I have shared with when discussing the first century reformation they would acknowledge the fifteenth century reformation but avoid discussing time of this promised first century reformation as if it never occurred.

God is not a man as us the one time demonstration is over .Christians walk by faith the unseen, eternal not by sight chasing after a fleshly god as did Adam and Eve in the garden

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, "yet now" henceforth know we him no more.

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

Katy-follower said:

But why THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come? Surely because the prince (nagid), the coming one, has been cut off. And indeed the Jews are the only ones identified as 'the people of --'. Otherwise people are known by their kings in Daniel. And besides, nagid is a special term for the anointed one.

What was certainly true was that the Jews did destroy their own city, by inter necine warfare, and their sanctuary to prevent it falling into Roman hands,

Yes, Messiah was cut off (fulfilled) - yes
The Romans then destroyed the temple (fulfilled) - the Jews destroyed their own temple. Titus sought to save it.
The future prince who is to come (not yet fulfilled) - no mention of future, but there IS mention of a coming prince who was fulfilled in the Messiah.
it says the people who destroyed the temple (Romans) are of the coming prince --- therefore Messiahs own people

so we know the future prince is someone from the revived Roman empire (the 10 toes of the statue) -- why should he be future? and why should there be a revived Roman empire? it does not mention the toes in the fulfilment,

Continuing......

Daniel 9:27: "Then he (roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 yrs); --- no, it is a messianic prince who would confirm the covenant with God, which is to be 'confirmed'. That is exactly what Jesus did.

It actually sounds like the cessation of offerings under the Messiah, by His offering of Himself.

The abomination of desolation in 70 ad.

But the only coming prince in the narrative WAS Jesus. And I am not a preterist,

.

What is unfortunate is that you confuse what Jesus did with the antichrist. Jesus ALONE confirmed the covenant. In Daniel the covenant is ALWAYS the covenant with God,

If you look closely you'll notice the "He" versus "he" - a capital letter is always used when God is mentioned, and a lower case for everyone else. Just further confirmation that the roman prince in verse 27 is Antichrist and not Jesus. Verse 27 has not been fulfilled yet, which points to the Great tribulation being in the future.

That is what happened in 70 ad, and again in 135 AD

Nothing? LOL and why should the present day make it more a reality? Are you going to destroy the entire earth?

Ahwatukee · Jun 13, 2017

The abomination is an image that will be set up in the holy place within the temple. This is that same image mentioned in Rev.13:14 that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast. You applied it to Roman soldiers only to support your position, but that interpretation does not fit whatsoever.

The above is just a desperate misapplication of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other.

The facts remain in that, scripture plainly states that "the peoples of the earth will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven and will mourn. In relation to this, Rev.1:7 says:

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

[FONT=&quot]So shall it be! Amen.[/FONT]

The above of course is referring to the end of the age--not the one you invented as being Israel's end of the age--but the end of the age for all human government, when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The following is the chronological order of last day events:

You are here!

The Lord is going to appear and gather the church (1 Thes.4:13-17, John 14:1-3)

That ruler, the antichrist will establish his seven year agreement with Israel (Dan.9:27)

In the middle of seven he will set up that abomination in the holy place (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15)

The woman/Israel will flee out into the desert and cared for 1260 i.e. that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period (Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6,14)

The beast will make war and conquer the great tribulation saints for that last 3 1/2 years (Dan.7:25, Rev.13:5)

After the 7th bowl has been poured out Jesus will return to the earth, with the church who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, riding on white horses and following the Lord out of heaven. (Rev.19:11-21)

The beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. (Rev.19:20)

Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for a literal thousand years. (Rev.20:10)

The great tribulation saints who will have died keeping the testimony of Christ and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, will be resurrection and will rule with Christ during that thousand years, along with the church. (Rev.20:4-6)

The thousand year reign of Christ will begin

Satan is released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:3,7)

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown a thousand years earlier. (Rev.20:10)

The unrighteous dead are resurrected out of Hades and will be judged for all of their sins at the great white throne judgement and will be thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev.20:11-15)

New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem: Eternity .......................................

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

The Greek HAD no capital letters in those days. They are the translators.

And where is the great tribulation mentioned?

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2017

Bladerunner said:

This is utter and complete hogwash. Christ raised up the new spiritual temple in 3 days. The spiritual temple that Christ created is still being built today. There will never be another earthly man-made temple where Christ will someday reign. There will never be the resumption of animal sacrifices acceptable to God.

The futurist interpretation is that the 70th week refers to the Antichrist who will make a covenant with the Jews. This covenant will allow them to offer sacrifices in a "rebuilt" temple at Jerusalem for seven years, but after three and a half years he will break this covenant and cause the sacrifices to cease. The fulfilled interpretation, on the other hand, is that the 70th week refers to Christ and that the causing of the sacrifices to cease was accomplished at Calvary when Christ became the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.

What differences exist here! One says the 70th week is future; the other says it is fulfilled! One says there is a huge gap between the 69th and the 70th weeks; the other requires no gap. One says the 70th week pertains to Antichrist; the other to Jesus Christ! In view of such glaring differences, both of these interpretations simply cannot be correct.

Without going over this again, the first 69 weeks (483 years) takes us to 27 AD, the year Christ began His ministry. Half way into week 70, Messiah was cut off at the Cross in 30 AD. The remaining half week the apostles continued to preach to the Jews until Peter was divinely told to start preaching to the Gentiles.

But go ahead and continue believing in the Boogie Man and a third temple if you want. You just will never see it come to fruition. You will one day die and immediately be with the Lord in a glorified body. That's how it works now.

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

The abomination of desolation was Roman standards to which offerings could be made to the emperor in the holy of holies.

The same offerings to the emperor.

It actually fits perfectly. What is more it fits John's timing.

So says the 'expert' LOL

well we agree on that

But that doesn't affect the previous argument

But that doesn't affect our previous arguments.

No when He comes and brings in the everlasting kingdom on the new earth.

agreed

and bring in the everlasting kingdom

Daniel 9 knows nothing of such an agreement. The seventieth seven follows immediately after the sixty ninth as all sensible people accept.

Where does it mention an abomination of the Holy Place in Daniel 9? It merely says the sacrifices and oblations shall cease. That was caused by the death of the Messiah, the coming One.,

Matt 24.15 of course refers to the siege of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

LOL this was to happen after the resurrection see Rev 12

not mentioned anywhere. Revelation 13 occurred in John's day and the following years.

well we can agree on this. But this is at the end of Revelation,

correct

Satan was in the Abyss in Revelation 9. There is no literal '1000 yrs'. Rev 20 begins a new vision which ties in with ch 9.
He is thrown in at the same time as the beast and the false prophet

If they are resurrected physically why are their SOULS mentioned. This is a description of the present reign of Christ over the earth along with the spiritually resurrected SOULS of those who did not worship the beast (see Eph 2.5-6; Col 3.1).

There is no literal 1000 years. It is speaking of a long period of time (as in OT) and it will have ended with the Coming of Christ

a second time? lol it happened in ch 9.

No. all at the same time as we would expect

How many physical resurrections are you expecting.? Jesus expected only one (John 5.28-29)

This will follow Christ's coming and the future resurrection,

Muzungu256 · Jun 13, 2017

Ahwatukee can you please tell me how the temple in jerusalem thats coming soon can be considered holy because its animal sacrifices which God doesnt want anymore since Jesus is here???????????? i dont overstand how it would be holy today??????????? prove to me its holy and i agree...........

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2017

Following the breaking through of the inner wall, the Roman solders came into the temple compound. They offered sacrifices to Titus and Vespasian with their idols to Zeus. They declared Titus the "imperator" or absolute supreme ruler. They worshiped Titus in God's temple setting Titus up as God.

You don't see a covenant with Israel broken when God destroyed their temple ending their sacrifices forever? Well okay then.

This is always taken incorrectly. The actual Greek text states this:

Behold He comes with the clouds, and will see Him every eye and those who him pierced, and will wail due to Him all of the tribes of the earth. Yes, Amen.

"earth", 1093 ghay. From soil, land. Can mean a region or country. My contention is that Christ Presence (parousia) returned in 70 AD to destroy the temple using Rome as His instrument of destruction just as God used foreign Gentile nations to exact punishment on His people in the past such as with Assyria and Babylon. In prophesy, especially Revelation, "earth" is most often associated with Israel while "sea" is associated with the surrounding Gentile nations. Think of Israel as an island in a sea of Gentile nations. The "tribes of the earth" then refer to the tribes of Israel including the 10 lost tribes. We know quite clearly that "those who pierced Him" were Roman solders and we have Roman solders in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD. The text does not say, "the descendants of those who pierced Him." I'm being literal, you are spiritualizing.

I know this is hard for you to grasp and that you won't be able to because you are too locked into your view. The end of the age was in 70 AD. All references to "end of the ages" refer to that event. The church was gathered, there was a resurrection of all dead OT and pre-parousia saints just as Paul taught in 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15:50-52. Some of the Thessalonians were alive and remaining, just as Paul said they would be and they, along with the rest of the Church, were caught up and changed.

Paul makes no mention of their descendants thousands of years into the future. You are adding 2,000 year gaps to everything, when no gap is found or taught. Prior to the resurrection of the firstfruits, both dead righteous and wicked were confined to Sheol as they were not yet atoned and could not enter heaven before the Cross. Until Jesus died for remission of sins for all time, past, present and future, there was no path to heaven. Paul taught that until the corruptible dead were raised incorruptible, they could not enter heaven.

For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If the resurrection of the firstfruits had not yet occurred, then these ancient saints would still be stuck in Sheol (Hades) separated by a gulf. But we know they are now in heaven because John saw them in Rev 20 reigning with Christ and wearing white robes. John called it, "the first resurrection."

Peter taught in 1 Pet 3:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison...

Jesus taught as recorded by John in Rev 1:

18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

It is my view that these ancient dead are no longer in Hades or Sheol, and that Christ freed them as He implies in Rev 1. Apparently it is your view is that they are still stuck in Hades waiting for some future resurrection/rapture.

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

But the Jews disagree with you. THEY recognised as an abomination of desolation two things;

first that the Holy City was invested by soldiers with their standards on which was the emperor's image and by which offerings were made to the emperor.

Secondly that they entered the Holy of holies itself

This cup is the new covenant in My blood (Luke 22)?

dcontroversal · Jun 13, 2017

If the great tribulation is 7 years then why does Michael state clearly it is exactly 1335 days in Daniel 12.....and why does Revelation and Daniel equate the war made against the SAINTS (SAVED) and the wearing out of the SAINTS (saved) and the overcoming of the SAINTS (saved) to 42 months, 3.5 years or 1260 days.......

There are exactly 1335 days left of the 70th week

1260 of that is the great tribulation for the SAINTS (saved)

ALL 1335 days apply to ISRAEL as they will go thru and repopulate the waste cities after

Daniel states that from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away to the setting up of the image is 1290 days

SO....we have 4 times to deal with....

1335 days (all that is left) of the 70th week
1260 being tribulation upon the saints

That leaves 75 days............

Daniel states 1290 to the setting up of the image

1260 plus 30 for the peace and safety which results in sudden destruction (wrath 45 days)

MY view...

70th week

1185 days Ministry of Christ to lost sheep of the house of Israel and end of the daily sacrifice in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, they rejected and must endure the last 1335 days (DANIEL 12)
1260 days of tribulation
30 days of peace (false and short lived 1st Thessalonians 5)
45 days of wrath initiated when image is placed

The dividing line and time ending for humanity to choose either God or the beast runs out at the 7th trump (time no more)

Jesus seizes all earthly Kingdoms as LORD, resurrects/changes and rewards the saved as Christ and pours out his wrath as GOD....all initiated at the 7th trump.

VCO · Jun 13, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

SHOW ME ONE HISTORIAN that described WHAT WAS ON THE WING OF TEMPLE in 70 A.D. that caused the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION. Your Made Up Theology holds NO WATER.

Daniel 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will
be on a wing of the templeuntil the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge.
⌊I⌋ also ⌊saw⌋ the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about
Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and
who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life
and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

Your theories are based on NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE, and NOTHING WAS PUT ON THE WING OF THE TEMPLE, IT WAS SIMPLY TORN DOWN BLOCK BY BLOCK AND THROWN OVER OTHE WALL in 70 A.D.

At Least here is a very logical explanation of what may be placed on (not in) the Wing of the Temple that would defile the Temple causing the Abomination of Desolation:

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

VCO said:

It is quite simple. The standards of the Roman soldiers. They would remain there watching over the Temple remains.

see above

Revelation 20:4 (HCSB)

Click to expand...

Christ and His saints HAVE reigned for a 'long period of time'. It actually speaks of their SOULS.

You do put huge amount on the interpretation of a disputed verse?

valiant · Jun 13, 2017

In 1st century Roman citizens were always beheaded like Paul was.

PlainWord · Jun 13, 2017

dc,

Let me see if I can help you understand this.

Daniel 12 is shown to have literally occurred in the first century. The 1,290 days prophecy of Daniel 12:11 correctly predicts that there would be 1,290 days between the termination of the regular sacrifice to Caesar in A.D. 66 to the arrival of the abomination that causes desolation (the Roman army and their abominable idols of Zeus, Caesar and Rome) at Jerusalem in Shabbat of A.D. 70. There were also 1335 days between the cessation of the regular sacrifice to Caesar and the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem. There were also EXACTLY 1335 days from the 9[SUP]th[/SUP] of Av in A.D. 70 when the Roman army worshipped the image of the beast in the holy Temple to the first day of peace after the end of the Jewish War at the fall of Masada on Passover of A.D. 74. The reference to the time, times and half a time, or three and a half years, in Daniel 12:7 is the interval between the arrival of the Roman Army in Israel at the Feast of Tabernacles in A.D. 66 to the siege of Jerusalem on Passover of A.D. 70. The rise of Michael in Daniel 12:1 is described in Rev 12:7-9. Here Michael and his angels fight against the Devil and his army. This war was actually seen from earth and recorded by Tacitus and Josephus.

Issachar92 · Jun 13, 2017

Oh boy that 70A.D. really was something wasnt it? We got heavens rolling open, Jesus came and every eye saw Him and we are in the New Jerusalem already. No we aren't! - Yes we are it was an invisible return. Ah I see, so that's why Jesus said every eye can see Him? He meant its gonna be invisible, where would we be without 21st century prophecy gurus.

All kidding a side, listen guys, yall keep talking about history but I suggest you take your own advice and read up on what some of the early christians in the years 100-400 were saying and guess what, they were premillennial and thought matthew 24 is FUTURE, so unfortunately for you, most of the church completely missed this apocalypse. Oopps.

As for abomination of desolation occuring in 70A.D. sure it was an abomination, but if you're a student of bible prophecy you know there is a bunch of double triple quadra fulfillments out there, such as Isaiah 7:14 it was given to Ahaz the king of Judah in his generation, yet matthew applied it to the birth of Jesus, so by the way y'all interpret the bible, it couldn't of been about Jesus since its that generation only.

As for the abomination of desolation, when and how will it occur, we can guess, some have said its referring to a church or something, but with my background I can't see it as a catholic mass lol, to me its clearly the third temple being rebuilt (which they are working on right now, news straight outta the Holy Land). If you read the news story about it, they said it was gonna be a "House of prayer" for ALL, so that matches perfectly with the anti-christ agenda of one world religion and government.

God bless

EDIT: Oh yeah btw valiant you are right Jews do interpret daniel 9:27 to relate to 70A.D. however lets remember these are my brethren whom reject Christ.

The Rapture

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