Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[Muzungu256]

hi all!!!!! im sure you have all read the gospel paul preached to the corinthians in 1corinthians15:1-4 well i see this in there and i think some might skip it over im not accusing anyone though!!!!!!!!!: Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

hi all!!!!! im sure you have all read the gospel paul preached to the corinthians in 1corinthians15:1-4 well i see this in there and i think some might skip it over im not accusing anyone though!!!!!!!!!: Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Keep reading the whole chapter, Muzungu256. Paul's argument concerns the gospel of Jesus Christ and His resurrection of the dead. That is the power of the gospel which saves (that Jesus Christ is Lord and God has raised Him from the dead).


If Jesus Christ was not resurrected from the dead, we are of all men most miserable (1 Cor 15:19).


1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

 

[PeterJens]

NO one is supporting sinning as many have posted about it's destructiveness in our lives.

There is a simple issue here. Jesus came to set us free from sin.
If you preach a gospel that does not have this freedom as its bedrock, then from our
perspective you are preaching that sin cannot be broken.

The whole logic behind your theology is to say sin points us to Christ to impute His
righteousness on us, though we sin we are forgiven.

Now nowhere is scripture is this concept ever used. A righteous man is deemed righteous
because of their faith and not their acts. Sin when identified and understood is to be confessed,
repented of and Jesus will cleanse the believer through His blood.

There is an inevitability of sin, if we do not abide in Christ, but in abiding there is the expectation
of righteousness empowered by love, the Holy Spirit and Gods word. This appears to be missing
because the excuse is to talk about righteousness will encourage legalism and works salvation.

Sounds to me like a logic trap to stop one fulfilling the promise Christ brings.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think one of the issues that lies between those who believe salvation may be lost and those who believe salvation may not be lost is that word "works".


I believe all on both sides of the table believe God has created born again believers in Christ Jesus that we should walk in those good works which were before ordained by God.


I believe all are in agreement concerning this issue.




I believe all on both sides the table are in agreement that we are not to live a sinful life after having been saved; that a born again believer can come into bondage to sin even after having been saved; and that great grace, mercy, lovingkindness is extended to the born again one through our Lord Jesus Christ as He seeks out His sheep that are lost and brings His sheep safely back into the fold.


I believe all are in agreement concerning this issue.




So what is the great disconnect? I think it hinges on the word "works" and who(Who) it is who(Who) does these "works". Is it the believer on his/her own? Is it God working within the believer?



On the one hand, some believe the born again believer is the one who does the works.


On the other hand, some believe it is God Who works within the believer Who does the works.


I believe we all can agree that we do not do good works in and of ourselves and that if not for God working within us our works would not stand.


So maybe we need to think this way when we read what someone posts about "works" we "must" do as believers. And maybe as we post about "works" we "must" do, we need to think about Who it is Who is working within us to guide, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle us as we live out our lives on this earth. We need to understand and keep in mind that it is God Who works within us both to will and to do of His good pleasure; that without our Lord Jesus Christ, we can do nothing and it is His fruit which we hold for all to see.


God is conforming us to the image of His Son. He does this through cleansing us and He cuts away from us the things of the flesh which bring nothing but detriment to our lives, and He guards us as His precious possession. Remember when the children of Israel left Egypt and the angel of God came between His people and the Egyptians so that the Egyptians could not see the children of Israel as they crossed the Red Sea (Ex 14:19-20)? That is our God. He protects His own.


God bought us and paid for us with the precious blood of His only begotten Son. We are precious in His sight and He provides each one of us with what we need in order to do what needs to be done each day to His glory. He fills us each and every day. Not each week; not each month; not each year. Each and every day He gives us what we need in order to live a life which brings glory and honor to Him.

 

[Sagart]

And this is the Father's will Who sent me that of ALL THAT HE HAS GIVEN ME I should lose nothing but should raise them up at the last day,(John 6.39);

OK show me where this is a perversion of His promises?

39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
(NASB, 1995)

There is no promise here at all! What we do have here is as statement that it is “the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day nothing but should raise them up at the last day."

The linguist and Bible Scholar Adam Clarke very accurately wrote, “It is the will of God that every soul who believes should continue in the faith, and have a resurrection unto life eternal. But he wills this continuance in salvation, without purposing to force the persons so to continue. God may will a thing to be, without willing that it shall be.”

Moreover, in John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost,

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” (NASB, 1995)

Furthermore, in spite of the fact that you have been clearly shown that you are absolutely and incontrovertibly wrong—you have posted over and over this statement by Jesus and lied and called it a promise.

1 Tim. 1:6. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
7. wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
8. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9. realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10. and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (NASB, 1995)

Rev. 21: 7. “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8. “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (NASB, 1995)

 

[Rockrz]

Galatians 5:24
Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

So, when ya see those claiming to be Christians who are worldly... they either turned away from the Lord or they're just playing religious games

 

[followjesus]

I think one of the issues that lies between those who believe salvation may be lost and those who believe salvation may not be lost is that word "works".


I believe all on both sides of the table believe God has created born again believers in Christ Jesus that we should walk in those good works which were before ordained by God.


I believe all are in agreement concerning this issue.




I believe all on both sides the table are in agreement that we are not to live a sinful life after having been saved; that a born again believer can come into bondage to sin even after having been saved; and that great grace, mercy, lovingkindness is extended to the born again one through our Lord Jesus Christ as He seeks out His sheep that are lost and brings His sheep safely back into the fold.


I believe all are in agreement concerning this issue.




So what is the great disconnect? I think it hinges on the word "works" and who(Who) it is who(Who) does these "works". Is it the believer on his/her own? Is it God working within the believer?



On the one hand, some believe the born again believer is the one who does the works.


On the other hand, some believe it is God Who works within the believer Who does the works.


I believe we all can agree that we do not do good works in and of ourselves and that if not for God working within us our works would not stand.


So maybe we need to think this way when we read what someone posts about "works" we "must" do as believers. And maybe as we post about "works" we "must" do, we need to think about Who it is Who is working within us to guide, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle us as we live out our lives on this earth. We need to understand and keep in mind that it is God Who works within us both to will and to do of His good pleasure; that without our Lord Jesus Christ, we can do nothing and it is His fruit which we hold for all to see.


God is conforming us to the image of His Son. He does this through cleansing us and He cuts away from us the things of the flesh which bring nothing but detriment to our lives, and He guards us as His precious possession. Remember when the children of Israel left Egypt and the angel of God came between His people and the Egyptians so that the Egyptians could not see the children of Israel as they crossed the Red Sea (Ex 14:19-20)? That is our God. He protects His own.


God bought us and paid for us with the precious blood of His only begotten Son. We are precious in His sight and He provides each one of us with what we need in order to do what needs to be done each day to His glory. He fills us each and every day. Not each week; not each month; not each year. Each and every day He gives us what we need in order to live a life which brings glory and honor to Him.

"God bought us and paid for us with the precious blood of His only begotten Son. We are precious in His sight and He provides each one of us with what we need in order to do what needs to be done each day to His glory. He fills us each and every day. Not each week; not each month; not each year. Each and every day He gives us what we need in order to live a life which brings glory and honor to Him."


thats good stuff

i think part of the disconnect, is the reasoning that the warnings about the result of not doing those things were enabled to do, as we learn and grow, no longer apply, even though they are written in the same letters to the same people as the rest of the Word. those multiple and clear warnings are there as part of what Keeps us doing the good works were made to do, and they arent untrue, they just need the proper perception of the spirit rather than the flesh.

the flesh sees a warning as forbiddance of something enjoyable, and interprets it as such and labels it a "self work" to abstain and take those warnings as true.

The spirit sees those same warnings, as instructions meant to keep one safe from evil, good sound warning to overcome temptation ( which is part of the christian Life, being tempted of evil and overcoming it through the spirit provided by the word of God.) were not called to rest, but to work in the right spirit rather than the flesh. to work in the flesh is to continue on following its lusts, to follow the spirit, starves the flesh and makes temptation less of an obstacle, and more of a stepping stone because the spirit empowers us with the truth that overcomes.

the flesh nature within us , is truly put to death, when we follow the spirit and a transformation truly occurs through the Light of truth the Knowledge of Jesus Christ. as to where the things that once overcame us, become the things we have overcome and no longer even appeal because the spirit lead us to freedom from sin. temptation preys on our willingness to compromise and feed the flesh nature through sin left alive partly because we refuse to believe Jesus is truly able to free us from it, as Is clearly what He does.

romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."


God has indeed made us free from sin, we must begin to accept that as the truth, rather than argue against it. its faith and doubt that is our major struggle, some blieve God is able to heal a persons ilness, yet the same will argue He is unable to free us from the power of sin over us.

 

[followjesus]

There is a simple issue here. Jesus came to set us free from sin.
If you preach a gospel that does not have this freedom as its bedrock, then from our
perspective you are preaching that sin cannot be broken.

The whole logic behind your theology is to say sin points us to Christ to impute His
righteousness on us, though we sin we are forgiven.

Now nowhere is scripture is this concept ever used. A righteous man is deemed righteous
because of their faith and not their acts. Sin when identified and understood is to be confessed,
repented of and Jesus will cleanse the believer through His blood.

There is an inevitability of sin, if we do not abide in Christ, but in abiding there is the expectation
of righteousness empowered by love, the Holy Spirit and Gods word. This appears to be missing
because the excuse is to talk about righteousness will encourage legalism and works salvation.

Sounds to me like a logic trap to stop one fulfilling the promise Christ brings.

amen. and to add also the idea that its not possible to overcome sin and walk in the righteousness that is given to us as a gift through the word, is a lack of faith, and not sound at all, but counter productive to the righteousness that comes through the word of God. not a condemnation, but a lack of belief in Jesus who is able to accomplish saints from sinners, and redemption of the "unredeemable"

 

[reneweddaybyday]

39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
(NASB, 1995)

There is no promise here at all! What we do have here is as statement that it is “the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day nothing but should raise them up at the last day."

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not.


Jesus does not say that Judas believed, then did not believe.


Judas never believed.

Moreover, in John 17:12, Jesus, speaking to His Father, says that His Father gave Judas to Him, but that Judas was lost,

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” (NASB, 1995)

In the earthly ministry of Jesus, He did watch over His disciples and guarded them. And that included Judas, who never believed.


Look at John 18:1-9 and you will see who they were who were given to Jesus:


John 18:

1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.

2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.

3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.



Judas was part of those who stood with "them" who came to take Jesus (verse 5).

Judas was not part of the "these" who Jesus asked to be allowed to go their way (verse 8).

Judas was not part of the of them which thou gavest me have I lost none (verse 9).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the flesh sees a warning as forbiddance of something enjoyable, and interprets it as such and labels it a "self work" to abstain and take those warnings as true.

Sometimes the flesh sees a warning and sees it as an opportunity to feed itself in an effort to "appear" righteous, which results in looking good on the outside but really icky on the inside.


God cleans us up inwardly, and slowly but surely the outward comes into alignment with who and what we are inwardly.


I like the verse in 1 John which tells us that God's commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.)


We know we are in the flesh if it becomes grievous to keep God's commandments. It just comes natural to us to keep God's commandments as we're in the Spirit.

The spirit sees those same warnings, as instructions meant to keep one safe from evil, good sound warning to overcome temptation ( which is part of the christian Life, being tempted of evil and overcoming it through the spirit provided by the word of God.)

The Spirit will always do that which is good and proper in the sight of God. The new covenant reality is that God will put His laws into our hearts, and write them in our minds. Does He do this all in one moment (at the time we're born again)? Does He do this in an hour, a day, a month, a year?


I believe God begins to put His laws in our hearts and writes them in our minds beginning at the moment we're born again and continues as long as we're on this earth.


So all who are born again are learning and walking together on the path. Some are further along the path than others. Just because someone is on their first step does not mean they're not on the same path as the one who has walked for miles (years). And sometimes we stumble over rocks and fall. But we have a God Who helps us back up, brushes us off, and sets our feet straight. We are so blessed in that regard.

 

[followjesus]

cant disagree with anything in that comment. I would add that it all comes through the Word of God, given through the One who dies for us
john 6:63. and the spirit doesnt force us , its there to lead us when we follow. God bless

 

[followjesus]

The Spirit will always do that which is good and proper in the sight of God. The new covenant reality is that God will put His laws into our hearts, and write them in our minds. Does He do this all in one moment (at the time we're born again)? Does He do this in an hour, a day, a month, a year?

the scripture actually says that everyone has the law written in there Hearts, which we Know as a conscience. its why even a non believer will hide things like murder, theft, adultery.....because within us as humans we Know those things are wrong.

if you look at the new covenant promised through Jeremiah, and then quoted it is a covenant with isreal.
jeremiah 31:31-33 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

this is why Jesus came to mediate this covenant to isreal first, and then sent them to the world to speak the gospel to them, His teachings. ( matthew 28:18-20)

"Go teach them, to obey everything i have commanded you" that is where the writing on our hearts comes from, the spirit paul refers to so often are the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels. when this is accepted, it places us in the covenant "salvation is from the jews" we as gentiles are included, in the covenant made with isreal that is not according toi the covenant He made with the father who he led from egypt, the one mediated By Moses. the 4 gospels, outline the covenant of spirit and truth meant for the world, through the mediation of Jesus Christ.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

the scripture actually says that everyone has the law written in there Hearts, which we Know as a conscience.

What scripture says everyone has the law written in their hearts?

 

[WineRose]

*Awkward comic relief time!!!*

Now, personally, I dunno about falling from faith, but what I do know is that this cat definitely has fallen from...the table!

 

[Sagart]

Judas was not part of the of them which thou gavest me have I lost none (verse 9).

That is true, but the scenario in chapter 17 is entirely different. In John 18, Jesus is referring to the physical lives of his disciples.

18: 8. Jesus answered, “I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,”
9. to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”

In John 17, Jesus is referring to the eternal destiny of is disciples.

1. Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2. even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

6. “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
13. “But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
14. “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.”

The syntax of v. 12 is very clear,

12. “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

The antecedent of the pronoun them is “men” in verse 6, and none of “them” perished “but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.”

 

[followjesus]

What scripture says everyone has the law written in their hearts?

romans 2:14-15 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another "


its in our nature as humans, again its why even in the deepest parts of the world, people Know its wrong to kill, so they hide the action from others, people Know by nature right and wrong, but since the deception, we have both good, and evil working a war in us as to our actions.

 

[followjesus]

John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;"

this would then include all who believe on Jesus through the great commission.

Matthew 28:17-20 "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."


so thier words, would be as we find in the epistles the exact same principles Jesus taught, making the 4 gospels, the gospel

 

[followjesus]

hi all!!!!! im sure you have all read the gospel paul preached to the corinthians in 1corinthians15:1-4 well i see this in there and i think some might skip it over im not accusing anyone though!!!!!!!!!: Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

remember that pauls letters are reproving letters sent back to the churches after He left, some established by He and His companions, others like the church at rome, paul had never been to. He wrote many of His letters from prison, and detainment in rome when He was taken there for His trial and eventual martyrdom. ( according to His abrupt ending, and church History) along with His final letter saying

2 timothy 4:6-15 "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
9Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 11Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.12And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 13The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words."

this before His second appearance before nero ( a historically evil murderer of christians) which appears in the kjv authorized in this manner

v 22 "The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. (The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.)

 

[Grace777x70]

There is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which was released into this earth from Adam's transgression. The law of Moses is a manifestation of this in the hearts of un-regenerated mankind as Romans 2 talks about. It is in both the Gentiles and to the Jews in the form of the law of Moses.

Then there is the tree of life which is Christ Himself. That is the true law that God has put in our hearts - not the law of Moses.. The law of Christ Himself, the law of love, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of faith ( the law is NOT of faith ).

The true law which God Himself writes on our hearts is Christ Himself. Jesus is our one and only life. We are to eat from Him only.

 

[mailmandan]

hi all!!!!! im sure you have all read the gospel paul preached to the corinthians in 1corinthians15:1-4 well i see this in there and i think some might skip it over im not accusing anyone though!!!!!!!!!: Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14).

The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe in the first place) *Saving belief in the gospel holds fast and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.