Women should not be allowed to preach in church

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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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So, are we done bickering? I would like to address the concerns about only men can be deacons, according to 1 Tim. 3. Again, something I wrote before, but very relevant.

So time to look at the overseer/deacon/bishop passage n 1 Timothy 3 in depth in the Greek. I've been avoiding it because I am in a lot of pain. Really, it takes concentration to look through all the lexicons/Greek tools etc.!! I had a good idea what needed to be said but I like to back up my thoughts with actual Scripture, esp. in the Greek.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις πισκοπς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. 2 δεῖ οὖν τὸν πίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek

Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ (epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."

Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."

Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine noun meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"

Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine noun meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.

For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.

Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, at least in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)

Verses 8 to 10 really gets into further qualifications for deacons, and not once is the term "he" used, which this time, the ESV gets right!

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10 ESV

Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.

However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."

This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons's wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

"γυνακας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV

"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV


I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine! And intended!)

"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not over fond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message

Regardless of translation, I concede that these verses are significantly ambiguous enough that it may or may not support women as overseers, and/or deacons.

Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV

The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources! Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.

Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.

So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.




Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament

Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry

United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,953
961
113
44
So, are we done bickering? I would like to address the concerns about only men can be deacons, according to 1 Tim. 3. Again, something I wrote before, but very relevant.

So time to look at the overseer/deacon/bishop passage n 1 Timothy 3 in depth in the Greek. I've been avoiding it because I am in a lot of pain. Really, it takes concentration to look through all the lexicons/Greek tools etc.!! I had a good idea what needed to be said but I like to back up my thoughts with actual Scripture, esp. in the Greek.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις πισκοπς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. 2 δεῖ οὖν τὸν πίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek

Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ (epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."

Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."

Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine noun meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"

Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine noun meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.

For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.

Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, at least in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)

Verses 8 to 10 really gets into further qualifications for deacons, and not once is the term "he" used, which this time, the ESV gets right!

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10 ESV

Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.

However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."

This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons's wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

"γυνακας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV

"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV


I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine! And intended!)

"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not over fond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message

Regardless of translation, I concede that these verses are significantly ambiguous enough that it may or may not support women as overseers, and/or deacons.

Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV

The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources! Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.

Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.

So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.




Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament

Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry

United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
You know what Angela the way Timothy lays out how and "overseer", or "deacons" should be it sure makes me feel a bit under qualified, especially in the "An overseer must manage his own household well and keep his children under control, with complete dignity" part.

Not really sure why I felt like sharing that, I guess to put my own shortcomings out there to help show I know I fall short regardless, but you have taught me a few things I didn't know through these post here in less than an hour, so what I know is that God has used you to teach me a few things I didn't know right here and now, so it's pretty clear to me. I am also grateful that He has given you the gifts and talents He has to go out and point others to Him. Thank you sister and I love you, and praise God to be able to have a chance to learn from the things you share. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
It is amazing how you render things from the text of Scripture that aren't there. More "biblical abracadabra."

I wonder if the WoF heretics play this song when they practice "preaching?"

[video=youtube;7QyoRzZrF00]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QyoRzZrF00[/video]
Eph 3:16  I pray that he would give you, according to his glorious riches, strength in your inner being and power through his Spirit, 


Eph 3:17  and that the Messiah would make his home in your hearts through faith. Then, having been rooted and grounded in love,
 

Eph 3:18  you will be able to understand, along with all the saints, what is wide, long, high, and deep— 


Eph 3:19  that is, you will know the love of the Messiah—which transcends knowledge, and will be filled with all the fullness of God. 


Eph 3:20  Now to the one who can do infinitely more than all we can ask or imagine according to the power that is working among us—
 

Eph 3:21  to him be glory in the church and in the Messiah Jesus to all generations, forever and ever! Amen. 

In the fullness of Spirit there is no gender.

If word of faith teaches what Paul taught...then how can it be a lie? I don't know if their teachings teach this...but this is the Word being proclaimed now.

But, if one denies prophets...there is no word heard. That is fresh bread by the way.

Some like dry toast.



 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,757
936
113
61
So, are we done bickering? I would like to address the concerns about only men can be deacons, according to 1 Tim. 3. Again, something I wrote before, but very relevant.

So time to look at the overseer/deacon/bishop passage n 1 Timothy 3 in depth in the Greek. I've been avoiding it because I am in a lot of pain. Really, it takes concentration to look through all the lexicons/Greek tools etc.!! I had a good idea what needed to be said but I like to back up my thoughts with actual Scripture, esp. in the Greek.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις πισκοπς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. 2 δεῖ οὖν τὸν πίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek

Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ (epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."

Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."

Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine noun meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"

Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine noun meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.

For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.

Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, at least in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)

Verses 8 to 10 really gets into further qualifications for deacons, and not once is the term "he" used, which this time, the ESV gets right!

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10 ESV

Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.

However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."

This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons's wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

"γυνακας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV

"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV


I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine! And intended!)

"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not over fond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message

Regardless of translation, I concede that these verses are significantly ambiguous enough that it may or may not support women as overseers, and/or deacons.

Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV

The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources! Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.

Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.

So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.




Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament

Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry

United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
This was not the OP Theme !
But what I found out is that this discussion makes no Sense and is lost time. Everybody makes himself to a teacher and takes the scripture as he likes. IF someone is takeing the whole scripture and the teaching and practise of the NT church and early church Historie, then you will find no woman in a leading church function ore practiseing
to teach man in the church ministrie. Nobody could Show this in the scripture without eisegesing and own thoughts to defend there position. Even the OP is not giving any response. So this is my last post in this thread.
Have a blessed day!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
So, are we done bickering? I would like to address the concerns about only men can be deacons, according to 1 Tim. 3. Again, something I wrote before, but very relevant.

So time to look at the overseer/deacon/bishop passage n 1 Timothy 3 in depth in the Greek. I've been avoiding it because I am in a lot of pain. Really, it takes concentration to look through all the lexicons/Greek tools etc.!! I had a good idea what needed to be said but I like to back up my thoughts with actual Scripture, esp. in the Greek.

"The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, " 1 Tim. 3:1-2 ESV

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις πισκοπς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ. 2 δεῖ οὖν τὸν πίσκοπον ἀνεπίλημπτον εἶναι, μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα, νηφάλιον, σώφρονα, κόσμιον, φιλόξενον, διδακτικόν," 1 Tim. 3:1-2 Greek

Paul notes in verse one that aspiring to be an overseer is a noble task. The word "HE" does not appear in the Greek in verse 1, but rather the verb ὀρέγεται (oregetai) which is in the present, indicative middle, 3rd person singular, meaning to stretch oneself out, to aspire, to desire; and the verb ἐπιθυμεῖ (epithumei) present indicative active, 3rd person singular, meaning "to set one's heart on, to desire."

Thus both male and female are included in this opening verse, not "he" as most translations add, simply because English needs a pronoun, which is understood in the Greek. Therefore, verse 1 could just as easily say, "The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, SHE desires a noble task."

Verse 1 of 1 Tim. 3 uses ἐπισκοπῆς (ephiskopase) a feminine noun meaning:
"Office of a bishop; engagement in oversight, supervision; leader of Christian community"

Verse 2, on the other hand uses ἐπίσκοπον (ephiskonon) a masculine noun meaning:
"overseer, bishop, pastor; one who watches over something or someone; guardian, supervisor, inspector.

For the early church fathers, the word denoted function, rather than the status of anyone who who exercised supervision or control.

Then Paul begins with the men who hold the office in the next verses. There are a lot of conditions that need to be met, at least in Ephesus, including being the husband of one wife. (Aner is used here! Meaning man or husband!)

Verses 8 to 10 really gets into further qualifications for deacons, and not once is the term "he" used, which this time, the ESV gets right!

"Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless." 1 Tim. 3:8-10 ESV

Then using parallel instructions to the women deacons in verse 11, Paul turns to the women overseers! ESV, KJV and HCSB and other complimentarian versions translate the word γυναῖκας (guvaikas) as wives, whereas more egalitarian versions like NIV and the Message both translate this word as "women" or "deaconesses" in the USB interlinear.

However, in order to use the word "wives" the complimentarian versions, including KJV must add the word "their" which does not appear in any version of the Greek. To translate it properly using "wives" It would have to say "Wives, must likewise..."

This is somewhat like adding the word "authority" to 1 Tim. 2:12, when the word does not appear in the Greek.
By adding "their" to the mix, it implies that this is how the deacons's wives are to behave, rather than certain women who qualify for the office of deacon. Leaving it as "Wives" implies all wives in the church, and this section, I am sure everyone will agree, concerns deacons!

"Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 ESV

"γυνακας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

"The women likewise must be serious, no slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things." 1 Tim. 3:11 RSV

"In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV


I love the way the Message puts it below, but I already hear people screaming that I even dared to use the NIV, even though it is a valid use of the word γυναῖκας! (Let alone the heretical paraphrase, The Message - sarcasm mine! And intended!)

"No exceptions are to be made for women—same qualifications: serious, dependable, not sharp-tongued, not over fond of wine. Servants in the church are to be committed to their spouses, attentive to their own children, and diligent in looking after their own affairs. " 1 Tim. 3:11-12 The Message

Regardless of translation, I concede that these verses are significantly ambiguous enough that it may or may not support women as overseers, and/or deacons.

Good hermeneutics does require that any doctrine has to be made from more than one verse, especially one which does not fall on either side of the debate. Since there are NO verses which say a woman cannot be a deacon, I want to look at a positive verse which definitively says she can be a deacon.

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae, 2 that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well." Romans 16:1-2 ESV

The RSV and ESV notes footnotes that the word "servant" could alternately be "deaconess" except for the fact that Paul uses the male term, because there actually was no word for deaconess in New Testament times, including contemporaneous sources! Further, the designation "deaconess" did not develop until the late 3rd century or early 4th. So the word is either deacon, as it is in cases with the men; or servant, and then all the verses referring to men need to be translated as "servant."

"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cen′chre-ae," Romans 16:1 RSV

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Greek.

Above, διάκονον or diakonon, is in the accusative case, masculine singular. Further, Paul uses the word diakonon referencing a specific place. The commendation of Paul shows he intended to designate Phoebe as serving in some important official capacity in the Cenchrean church. She was a deacon, an office to which a congregation could appoint both men and women.

So Phoebe is clearly called a deacon, thus leading the only conclusion one can draw from the 1 Tim. 3 example, that Paul is citing qualifications for men and then women.




Sources:
Danker and Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

Rogers Jr and Rogers III, The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament

Grenz and Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry

United Bible Societies, The New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament
So, if a married woman become a leader of the local church and her husband is in the same church, who is the leader of whom?
 
S

sevenseas

Guest
huh

here I thought this was a discussion from the Bible

but it's nothing but a game of follow the leader

I guess if that is your understanding that is all you can see, offer and do
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Buildings housing the many varried assemblies making up the curch may have their own dctrines and rules about woman being forbidden to preach within the confines of each, however

the members of the Body of Jesus christ are men and women..........This is the actual church...never one of the named cults, that is denominations.

If you need evidence of this, ask yourself, was Jesus teaching any of the denominations in existence today? Can you say in honesty He was a Catholic? A Jew (that refers to what became Judaism), a Baptist? A methoodist? and so on?

One you capture this understanding and have a command of it.......then perhaps, and only perhaps, you may bar any from speaking what the Holy Spirit has given to be shared or preached.
 
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I know this, the bible says that not many of us should be teachers because we are going to have a more strict judgment. If I were female, from what I have read in the bible, I would never even dream of trying to be in authority over men in a church. At the bottom of the day the only thing that matters is what God thinks. I am thinking of the story about how God put Moses in charge and his sister with Moses other brother were trying to take some of his authority. It seemed like they had a pretty good position until God showed. Funny thing, God showed no respect for the opinion of Moses sister or brother at all, God went 100% by His original command(Moses in authority), also, God was very angry that Moses sister had challenged His word, so much so, that he hit her with leprosy. God has said, let the men led in a church meeting...you who challenge God on this will have to answer some day.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
To my understanding , it is not wrong for a woman to lead or teach the church .Although there have been controversy on it . This was written Paul to the church , knowing so well there ways and the customs in other to put them to check .He probably may not be speaking to all .Because when Jesus made the promises of his spirit He never said only to the male but to all that believes . so if we all accept n believe we can all be His witness , either male or female .
Deborah was a good example n Joyce Meyer is another , Can we say they are against the scripture ? No .Paul is not generalising that scripture , there is more to it.
I can say Deborah isn't against scripture, however she was also not a pastor either.

And Joyce Meyer against scripture? Yup!


(Only since you asked.)

I am amazed how quickly you went from evil to saintly in the space in time when you went from "women shouldn't" to "women should" with the fan base though. (Say a woman shouldn't be a pastor on this site, and hell hath no fury as that. Say women are okay-dokey on here, and suddenly you become the poster child for modern Christians. If God's word was up for a vote, you'd win that election.)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
huh

here I thought this was a discussion from the Bible

but it's nothing but a game of follow the leader

I guess if that is your understanding that is all you can see, offer and do
Wait! You thought there would be discussion on the Bible Discussion Forum?
 
Dec 3, 2016
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Wait! You thought there would be discussion on the Bible Discussion Forum?
Yeah, if we were gonna do that everyone would understand that woman cannot be pastors or teach / have authority over men as the Bible teaches.

But, not many these days are wanting to hear what God says in His Word...
 

rdde

Junior Member
Nov 26, 2013
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]HiDino,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Ifyou are saying Paul was 'reacting' to a woman that was teaching abouteve you would have to show that. But since that is never stated inscripture the view you hold is [/FONT]Eisegesis, whichis 'the process of interpreting' a text or portion of text in such away that the process introduces one's own presuppositions.
ForPaul to be speaking about a specific person the name ofthe person would need to be present somewhere in text or hewould need to have said 'the woman' or 'that woman', ho < is thearticle in greek that would make a pronoun a specific person ortittle.
Dinoif there are no words in the text that are specifying aparticular person then the text is a general admonishment to inthis case the group he is addressing. [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Alsoin verse 15 the word 'They' is [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]in[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3person not first person or second person'.[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]V[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]erse15 is the finish of the statement starting from verse 9. In verse 15Paul is stating that the natural gift to women of pregnancy withthese other attributes stated above ; modesty in dressingand in spirit and in not usurping spiritual authority overa man will keep her 'save' her from the attitude of wanting torule over her husband as was Eves curse in Gen. So we see thisteaching in vs 9-15 addressing married women specifically in thechurch was to help them fight their flesh from wanting to takecontrol over there husband etc. Which is an issue in the unsavedworld and was in this early church also. The problem ofauthority in the marriage, ei the wife not naturally wanting torespect/trust her husband and the husband not loving his wife allstarted in the garden so Paul brings this up again as the reason whywomen should not have spiritual rule over men in a position at achurch or which is the bigger issue in her heart. [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wantingto have rule over their husbands has a by product of making improperdecisions in Spiritual matters as Eve did in the garden she did notask her husband if what she was doing was ok, she acted on her ownand made a terrible decision she was deceived so then Adam who notdeceived decided to die himself and eat also and follow his wife.[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

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[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dan[/FONT]
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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... God has said, let the men led in a church meeting...you who challenge God on this will have to answer some day.
No more so than you who put words in His mouth and then claim that is sound biblical doctrine. You've been called on this many times and have not corrected yourself. Since you claim to have studied Scripture extensively, perhaps you could learn to quote it accurately instead of inventing words God allegedly said but mysteriously aren't recorded in Scripture.

HiDino,
Ifyou are saying Paul was 'reacting' to a woman that was teaching abouteve you would have to show that. But since that is never stated inscripture the view you hold is Eisegesis, whichis 'the process of interpreting' a text or portion of text in such away that the process introduces one's own presuppositions. ...
Dan
I am well aware of what eisegesis is. It would be such if there were no good sound reason to suspect that there were more going on than what the text itself says. In this case there is good reason, so even though Paul does not identify the false teachings by name, there is enough evidence in the text to suggest strongly that is the issue he's addressing.

One important principle of biblical interpretation is to consider context: literary, historical, cultural, and textual. In this case, all are relevant. The conclusions I have drawn are drawn from Scripture and its context, not from modern culture. By the way, you bring your presuppositions to the text as well, as shown in your use of the term, "curse" in regard to Eve in Genesis 3.
 
Dec 3, 2016
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God has said, let the men led in a church meeting...y
God's Word does actually teach this when the Lord outlined qualifications for ministry:

1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Bishop - Strongs G1985
a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer.

Deacons - Strongs G1249
probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.

Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve

Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, could bring ruin.

1 Timothy 2:12 Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesnt appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER.



One important principle of biblical interpretation is to consider...literary, historical, cultural
That's exactly what satan is trying to get people to do... look at things from mankind's viewpoint down here on planet earth rather from from God's viewpoint as the Creator.

This is what got lucifer kicked out of Heaven (taking his own point of view before God's) and this is what will cause some people to to spend eternity in that lake of fire with satan and his devils.
 
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rdde

Junior Member
Nov 26, 2013
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Dino ,
Thanks for the discussion.
 
Dec 17, 2013
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Sorry but i didnt clarify that maybe the vast majority of men shouldnt be advising people about their souls,pretty much anyone that claims to be a authority on God then tells people that failure (sinning) is OK should not be in the position that they are.

God specifacally warned us of these people so i wonder whats going to happen to ALL of them when He shows up.

I think that my initial response was a result of just having read about some convicted corrupt religious females but there are many in both sexes.

I think that i was trying to point out how a female that was considered one of the smartest most influental females EVER actually turned out to be just average.

Just to clarify,i dont think that ANYBODY that doesnt know what they are talking about should be advising ANYBODY about their soul.

Think about it...all of those that believed that nonsense that was taught are probably going to hell forever and the religious adviser will just say"whoops sorry!".
 
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Socreta93

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2015
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I'm sure everyone will hate my church or my denomination. I belong to a AG Pentecostal church and women preaching, teaching is commons place. I guess you'll call us heretical and that we aren't going to heaven. It's kind of shocking everyone against women taking leadership roles. Well like my pastor always says, it's not who says it, it's what they say. God uses everyone.

I remember about 2 years ago we had an incident, three men visited our church. Our pastor was preaching in another church so
a woman (I believe she was the women's president in my church at the time) was asked to preach. Since it's NY and a lot of the youth don't speak Spanish that well, we always have translators. My friend was asked to translated. About 10 minutes into the preaching, the three men started screaming, shouting things. Me working the A/V room I couldn't hear but it was obvious they were against women preachers, my friend was wearing lipstick and earrings. Growing up in my church, I didn't know women preachers was frowned upon. It's shocking how many here are against it.
 
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