Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
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The Fruits of the Holy Spirit produce Good works. NOT the other way around.
[h=3]You Will Know Them by Their Fruits[/h][FONT="]15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
It is not the works that produces fruit, but the fruit that produces good works.
So I think this is what so many get wrong, and backwards.
So what are these fruits?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
These fruits WILL produce good works.So we all need to examine ourselves, that we are exhibiting these fruits, NOT THE WORKS WE DO.
If you are not exhibiting THAT Spirit-filled list, you are likely exhibiting THIS fleshly list of bad fruit:
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Have a blessed weekend! Love you all.
[/FONT]
[h=3]You Will Know Them by Their Fruits[/h][FONT="]15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
It is not the works that produces fruit, but the fruit that produces good works.
So I think this is what so many get wrong, and backwards.
So what are these fruits?
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
These fruits WILL produce good works.So we all need to examine ourselves, that we are exhibiting these fruits, NOT THE WORKS WE DO.
If you are not exhibiting THAT Spirit-filled list, you are likely exhibiting THIS fleshly list of bad fruit:
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Have a blessed weekend! Love you all.
[/FONT]
Please read my post again.
I said that the fruit is produced if we follow the Lord's instructions in Mathew 5:3-10.
Did I mention anything about works producing the fruit of the Holy Spirit?
Thats my understanding of it.
If someone has an anger problem and is prone to outbursts of anger.
Lets say 5 times a day.
However if the Holy Spirit is working in them and that starts to reduce then fruit of self control is growing.
Now to me that is a good work, a good work in the believer that then manifests in his walk with others.
I often wonder if Peter ever fully overcome his hot head.
Had many long conversation. He had no choice I used to give him a lift into work
LOL
Keep at it!!
Oh. You said Used To. What happened?
He decided to take the underground to avoid you???!!!
Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24
The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.
But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law andare NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.
All works-based / works-righteousness belief system are all based on "doing the law" - which is doing "good works" in order to achieve salvation and righteousness..
This includes all religions of the world including the religion of Christianity that some have developed to replace the grace and life of Christ manifesting in our lives.
All works-based/ works-righteousness belief systems are in the same boat and it is a stumbling block and a rock of offense to those of us that think we can achieve salvation and righteousness by what we do or don't do.
Make no mistake about it - living from our own good works in order to be saved and achieve righteousness is an enemy of the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ and of Him and all that He has done for us.
The purpose of the law was :
1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20
2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8
3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11
4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24
The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.
But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law andare NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.
All works-based / works-righteousness belief system are all based on "doing the law" - which is doing "good works" in order to achieve salvation and righteousness..
This includes all religions of the world including the religion of Christianity that some have developed to replace the grace and life of Christ manifesting in our lives.
All works-based/ works-righteousness belief systems are in the same boat and it is a stumbling block and a rock of offense to those of us that think we can achieve salvation and righteousness by what we do or don't do.
Make no mistake about it - living from our own good works in order to be saved and achieve righteousness is an enemy of the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ and of Him and all that He has done for us.
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I have been shown something today that makes sense of a lot of phrases
Getting the cart before the horse etc.
Imagine you meet someone. You become convinced they are right so you put your belief in them.
They teach you different things, but it is they who are teaching you and working in you not anything
you do yourself and there are no conditions of acceptance, just acceptance or rejection.
Now if this is Jesus, and sin and righteousness are irrelevant, just indicators of need, then this faith
is a different faith than that preached in scripture or by the apostles. It is attempting to remove
sin or evil as a focus of God with man and replacing it merely with acceptance.
This is easy believism because there is nothing to it. It is just christianising sin.
The cross is just a distant legal resolution and walking in praise and joy is everything.
It has all the features of the christian faith, but none of the realities.
So you can never lose this salvation, because you have never gained it in the first place.
I never really thought people would be this blind to Jesus, but apparently they are.
And obviously there are no moral rules or measurements, because none are necessary.
If this is truly the faith you want to follow, God help you.
No real believer would accept this, because righteousness and love would continually be
asking them to push on and deal with sin appropriately.
Getting the cart before the horse etc.
Imagine you meet someone. You become convinced they are right so you put your belief in them.
They teach you different things, but it is they who are teaching you and working in you not anything
you do yourself and there are no conditions of acceptance, just acceptance or rejection.
Now if this is Jesus, and sin and righteousness are irrelevant, just indicators of need, then this faith
is a different faith than that preached in scripture or by the apostles. It is attempting to remove
sin or evil as a focus of God with man and replacing it merely with acceptance.
This is easy believism because there is nothing to it. It is just christianising sin.
The cross is just a distant legal resolution and walking in praise and joy is everything.
It has all the features of the christian faith, but none of the realities.
So you can never lose this salvation, because you have never gained it in the first place.
I never really thought people would be this blind to Jesus, but apparently they are.
And obviously there are no moral rules or measurements, because none are necessary.
If this is truly the faith you want to follow, God help you.
No real believer would accept this, because righteousness and love would continually be
asking them to push on and deal with sin appropriately.
Grace,
You can repeat this till the cows come home...
However in Mathew 5:17-20 JESUS DID SAY that He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. To make it complete. He actually made it more difficult, see Mathew 5:27-28 and Mathew 5:21-22
He said that untl heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke will pass away from the Law and that whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so TEACHES OTHERS, shall be called least in the Kingdom of heaven,
and if their righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, they shall NOT ENTER the Kingdom of heaven.
You've met him then
He got his own car in the end.
Bummer. (that's not a good thing)
Buy him a cd tape he could play in his new car!
Then give him a test to see if he listened...
The bible does say that we are to test ...!
How I understand your statement is this:
in our modern churches we like to preach the LOVE of God
But we forget the JUSTICE of God.
God is a loving God
But He is also a Just God.
BOTH need to be taught.
It's like Learning how to drive without teaching the student about a red traffic light.
He still works at my place, so every now and then a opportunity arises.
I did give him some resources to read.
Funnily enough one was titled the "Dicotomy of justification and works" it may have been faith and works.
Ive lost my copy, which is a shame as it was a good read.
Well, since we're not fully sanctified in this life, I'd say Peter kept some of his hot head till the end.
And he might have needed some. Go visit the place where he was imprisoned in Rome someday...