He struck the rock twice. Jesus was smitten once not twice (1 Co 10:4, 1 Pe 3:18). Besides, he's not finished with his ministry yet (Re 11:5).
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Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
- Thread starter Chris1975
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Man fails God. God doesn't fail man (1 Co 13:8). The rich man in Hades (holding place for the unrighteous dead) knew that God was just. He never argued that he shouldn't be there (Luke 16:19–31).
About as well as you do, I suppose.FranC said:
I know of him ... just as those spoken of in Rom 1:21 know of God.
You know him just as I know him. So you'll have to ask someone who knows him more intimately.FranC said:
Did you read Matt 23 where Jesus pronounces the woes to the scribes and pharisees? Do you really think Jesus would speak in the manner He spoke to them if they were teaching Truth from God's Word?FranC said:
One of the articles spoke about the clergy not believing in the resurrection. The clergy are the ministers who teach from the pulpits. If the teachers do not believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead, how are they ever going to teach the congregants about the resurrection? (rhetorical question)FranC said:
Why? Do you believe Jesus and His Apostles were false prophets / false teachers as revealed in 2 Peter 2? (another rhetorical question)FranC said:
You have not provided the use of the word γνόντες gnontes in the above verse.Sagart said:
Here is what you have provided:
John 14:7. "If you had known [ἐγνώκειτέ – egnōkeite] Me, you would have known [ᾔδειτε›·– ēdeite] My Father also; from now on you know [γινώσκετε·– ginōskete] Him, and have seen Him." (NASB, 1995)
Not the same word as used in Rom 1:21 (γνόντες gnontes).
"This is eternal life, that they may know [γινώσκωσιν – ginōskōsin] You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."Sagart said:
Again, not the same word as used in Rom 1:21 (γνόντες gnontes).
2 Cor. 5:16. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known [ἐγνώκαμεν – egnōkamen] Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know [γινώσκομεν – ginōskomen] Him in this way no longer.Sagart said:
Once again, we can plainly see that these are not the same words as what is used in Rom 1:21 (γνόντες gnontes).
You are 0 for 3, Sagart.
Without specifically knowing which Greek word you have defined from your A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000, I will withhold comment.Sagart said:
Did you define γνόντες gnontes, or γινώσκω (ginōskō), or some other derivative of the word γινώσκω (ginōskō)?
RDBD
I'll be leaving this thread since I hate repeating things.
But before I go I'd like to make a point of something I said earlier.
Leaving aside Koinè Greek, which no one here knows, (Could you learn about Chritianity from a book? Like persons here try to do with Greek? I doubt it), my common sense tells me that Romans 1:19 says that WHAT is KNOWN about God is evident WITHIN THEM, for God MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM.
Just using common sense, what does it mean to know something so well that it's WITHIN you? What does it mean to YOU when God makes something EVIDENT to YOU?
verse 20 says that since the beginning of the world (creation) His ETERNAL POWER, DIVINE NATURE have been CLEARLY SEEN,
being UNDERSTOOD through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.
verse 21: So even though they KNEW GOD, the did not HONOR HIM as GOD, or give THANKS.
So...
Do I
Know what is evident about God within me?
Did GOD make it evident?
Was His eternal power clearly seen?
Was His divine nature clearly seen?
Did I understand this through what has been made?
...To the point that I am without excuse?
Did I Honor Him?
Did I give thanks?
See. No Greek necessary.
The bible is as plain as day, in English...
well I know koine Greek
That's nice. Let's see if you agree with a friend of mine that's a theologian and knows koinè Greek and teaches it.
He told me the aorist tense, which is thrown around very much around here, is fluid depending on what is being said, difficult to really understand, and to forget about it whe speaking on these threads.
BTW, as you've noticed, I don't believe it's necessary to know KG, although it would be wonderful to (REALLY know it - not make believe) and also necessary when one seriiously studies the bible. Something most of us here don't really do.
Yes it is obvious even to those who do not know Koine Greek. The men under scrutiny were men who by their wickedness suppressed the truth. They knew about God from 'what was made' (His power and His deity) and yet they still did not truly believe in Him. This is the beginning of Pauls argument (to 3.20) that all men are condemned. There is no way in which these people 'knew' God in the deeper sense.
I often wonder how many of us know God in the deeper sense.
So how DEEP do we have to know Him before we can be saved???
Who decides?
It doesn't matter as long as we realise they were not true believers.
irrelevant. we are looking at what professing Christians DID do.
SO...
Many people escape the defilement of the world by joining a church, whether they truly believe or not.
.
Yes because they have left the church to which they nominally belonged.
So if I join a church, by this act alone, I'm leaving the defilement of the world???
Did Jesus demand an inner change? Doesn't the N.T. address believers?
So what LAST STATE in verse 20 (2 Peter 2:20) is Peter addressing IF they weren't EVEN REAL CHRISTIANS??
Do you suppose Peter didn't know if someone was a real Christian or not?
Was he addressing persons who just joined a church?
Was it easy to join the Christian church back then?
Or did the person have a high price to pay for joining it?
Would a nominal believer put his very life at risk unless he was a true believer?
A nominal Christian who leaves the church tends to go into sin. It was the reason he left the church.
T
They joined the church and escaped defilement. It happens day. I do not see the word 'saved' It is a pure invention.
You do not see the word "saved"? Could you list the verses in the N.T. where the word SAVED is used AS WE UNDERSTAND IT TODAY? Please do this, since THIS CONCEPT was not even known until recently (the past couple of hundred years).
Through joining the church they had escaped the defilement of the world. So what of it. Many today in churches have done the same. Then they give up attendance and plunge into the world
verse21
well that is questionable. the way of righteousness in your sense is MAN's way of righteousness. (Rom 10.3)
known as a variety of meanings from general experiential knowledge to a deep relationship.
The holy commandment is the ethical commandments of the Christian church. It has nothing to do with the Gospel message.,
Please explain what the ethical commandment is.
That is no good when you give your own meaning to the words.
I give my own meaning to the words?
The last time I checked I was not a theologian. No, I'm afraid I've learned the bible from those who really know.
Unfortunately too many DO put their own meanings to the words.
I rather enjoy reading on these threads how some persons just know who is saved and who isn't.
You say:
You cannot be saved on this basis.
So it's up TO YOU to decide on what basis I could be saved?
This is very proudful, to say the least.
That anyone here should absolutely know, with no doubt, what saves and what doesn't.
I did believe that was GOD'S job.
I did believe it was a matter of the HEART.
SO...
Those who preach grace and a change of heart are the very ones who DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES who shall be saved.
This is a nasty work.
You mean you can tell by OUTWARD appearances who is saved?
They are all the same word, but different parts of speech! γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the verb γινώσκω, the form of the word found in lexicons.
All Greek verbs are conjugated for five things:
Voice (active, middle, or passive)
Mood (indicative, imperative, subjunctive, or optative)
Tense (present, imperfect, aorist, future, perfect, past-perfect)
Person (first, second or third)
Number (singular or plural—the dual is not used in the New Testament)
All Greek participles, being verbal adjectives, are conjugated for voice and tense, and declined for number, gender and case. Greek participles are not conjugated for mood and they are not a mood and they do not express any mood.
To Greek verbs and participles, terminations are added to a root to express the voice, mood, tense, person, and number. Additionally, prefixes are added to express completed action.
John 14:7. εἰ ἐγνώκειτέ με, καὶ τὸν πατέρα μου γνώκειτε ἄν. καὶ ἀπ᾿ ἄρτι γινώσκετε αὐτὸν καὶ ἑωράκατε αὐτόν.
ἐγνώκειτε in this verse has the termination κειτέ to express the tense which is the past-perfect tense. Additionally, it has the prefix ἐ. This is called the ‘augment,’ and it expresses past time. English verbs have lost most of their terminations, and they never use an augment, but, unlike in Greek, they do use “helping words.” ‘Know’ is the first person singular form of the word. ‘Had known’ (as in John 14:7) is the past participle form of the word, and uses the helping word ‘had.’ γνώκειτε in John 14:7 is the same word as ἐγνώκειτέ but without the augment, and is translated as ‘have known’ rather than as ‘had known.’
However, in the ancient Greek manuscripts there alternate readings at John 14:7. They all use the same word, γινώσκω, but they use different tenses of the word—giving rise to the translation found in the NRSV,
John 14:7 If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
Why do you think Paul used the term "IN CHRIST" over 175X?
Maybe because it was important?
Maybe because it's important to BE IN CHRIST?
So, are you saying once one is saved he CANNOT ever leave God?
Or are you saying that even though one may leave God, he will still be saved?
(I disagree with both but what exactly is your position? --- no scripture please)
[SUP]"if" is not a conditional clause it's a conjunction, in other words it's the proof of your faith that you stay in the faith as in I John 2:19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Peter had not yet received the Spirit in regeneration, because Christ had not yet died He received it in John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Fail does not mean lost, if your car fails to start, is your car lost?.[/QUOTE]
Again these guys were never in the faith, they did not receive the message of the then stated preaching a false gospel. I John 2:19
The truth being spoken of here is on the resurrection, not salvation and if it was you again need to refer to I John 2:19.
You make a lot of assumptions, the word for contend is "
epagōnizomai"
"
to contend strenuously in defense of" it's about defending the truth, as in calling out cults and showing then the truth in Scripture. Jude is saying what Paul is saying in II Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.He kept the faith as in Colossians 1:22-23 or I John 2:19, the proof of his faith or election is that he believed and believed to the end. No great revelation in that. But to assume that Paul is saying that because he kept the faith as in his own doing that goes against everything he taught. Like in "even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," or "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
You forgot the context of 5:4 as in 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? Our faith is only as go as what your faith in placed in, faith in faith, is useless and that what you are saying is it your faith that keeps you, when your faith only keeps you if it is in Christ. Once you have placed faith is faith it is a continuous life of faith or it's not Biblical faith in Christ, because if you leave as in John 2:19 you never were of the faith.
Of course those that are faithful will receive a crown, because their faith has proven that they were in the faith, again I John 2:19
I think you are trying to say these were real believers. But again you leave out the context 6:1-3 "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.3 And this we will do if God permits."
Okay who is this being written to? Jewish believers and what are the "elementary doctrines of Christ" it's the Law, with all of the ceremonies that needed to be done to make an offering. Laying on of hands, one the scapegoat, the High Priest would lay hands on him and transfer the sins of the people on to him. The washings were all the washings of the offerings. Which is all the foundation for repentance from daed works or the Law to become righteous before God. After all that instruction if you don't repent, it is impossible to get you to repent because your eyes are not opened to see the kingdom of God John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Since all those sacrifices were the foundations of Christ to continue them is to crucify Christ again and again, since they were a foreshadow of Christ's crucifixion. They tasted the heavenly gift of the sweetness of the perfect Law of God, that is sweeter then honey and more costly the gold, much fine gold Psalm 19, after tasting it and not repenting it is impossible to renew them to repent.
The problem with this verses is the Church in general has not been taught the foundation of Christ, so when they see these Scriptures they naturally assume that you can fall away form the faith, when that's not what it's talking about. Because they do not understand the impossibility of trying to stay righteous before God and that's what you are teaching here that a person can do something to stay righteous before God and that is impossible. That's what the Law teaches but because people have not been taught that they come up with all kinds of different things that are not the Gospel. Think about it Jesus was preaching to people that knew the Law will, the apostles where di they go to preach the Gospel, to the synagogues, where people were instructed in the Law. Without the understanding of the Law and it's judgement on your life, there is no need to repent. Sure people except Jesus, but did they repent?
Think about what you are saying, that a person can lost their salvation and they would of it depended on them, but it does not. It depends on Jesus, but if you [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]believe in a man centered gospel that of course you can lost your salvation. That is why it's a gift from God, you can not do anything to earn a gift and if you did it's no longer a gift, it's payment for what you performed. With that gift the father seals us with the promised Holy Spirit with is a guarantee of our inheritance the blessed hope our glorified bodies.[/FONT]
We don't go in and out of Christ. That's religious nonsense and denies the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection. It turns the gospel into a works-based perversion that actually nullifies the grace of God in Christ that is needed for the Christian to live and experience the promises of God in this life.
I have told you about a dozen times already and this will be the last time as this is just a complete waste of time. Once a person is saved - they are saved. Hence the term "saved" in the first place. There are 100's of scriptures that show this truth as I and others have put up constantly.
How does one leave God? How does one get Jesus out of the new creation that is in Christ? As I have said dozens of time - you can have sick thinking in our minds because of false teaching - such as this lose your salvation doctrine.
Tell a person that God puts diseases on people ( like a parent's child ) to teach them things and that person will get bitter in their minds but God will be faithful to them all and show His true character and nature to them eventually. Love never fails.
True biblical faith and salvation is of the heart - the spirit of man where the inner man becomes sealed with Christ and of course Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be with you forever. Jesus is not a liar. I believe Him.
He will be faithful to reveal His true self to all of us. Have a good rest of your day!
*Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth..turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..
IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life.
In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).
Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.
So is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).
"nonsense" "works-based perversion" "nullifies the grace of God"
Nothing changes. But then ofcourse how could it.
If you have already arrived, you do not need to do anything, you are like Christ
or whatever that means, and it is up to you as an individual what you do next.
Now once the whole basis of change has been removed, no incident in life or
shock or reality will ever get through, because nothing now needs to.
The anger, the condemnation, the hatred are all there as if talking about
becoming like Jesus is the biggest evil ever preached.
But then to them this is true. They were bound all their lives striving for something
they could never attain, so now they regard the freedom they have as the gospel
and anything else regarding sin, evil as the work of the enemy.
I can see how once set like this, people will go to their deaths thinking and believing
they have arrived while still slaves to addictive sinful behaviour, but just accepting
that is who they are, God still loves them. I can relate to this place, but it is not
the hope in Christ.
We don't go in and out of Christ. Agreed.
One must be IN CHRIST to be saved.
One is NOT saved if he is NOT IN CHRIST.
Jesus said He That Endures Till The End, Will Be Saved.
ENDURES TILL THE END.
He is able to finish what HE began in us.
Sure. For as long as we ALLOW HIM to. Does God force us? Does He take away our free will?
Nothing shall snatch us from His hand.
Right. But we could sure walk away from it.
So. You believe NO MATTER WHAT, someone is STILL saved.
Which puts persons who have ABANDONED HIM and are living a life WITHOUT GOD, in the same boat as persons who
ARE FOLLOWING GOD.
Yeah. Get a person who knows NOTHING and teach him what YOU teach, I'd like to see them agree with youi!!
Only those as children will be allowed into the Kingdom.
Because children listen, they trust, they obey, they Honor, they love.
DO THOSE WHO HAVE ABANDONED GOD HAVE THE ABOVE QUALITIES???
Au Revoir
Blessings
You're still a Brother in Christ, no matter how WRONG your doctrine is.
Amen! Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.
Your exegesis and hemeunetics are just too much!
Do you have, like, an instruction manuel and how to turn every scripture around that speaks the TRUTH, to make it say what YOU want it to say???
Arrivederci...
We sometimes take scriptures out of their context - for example.
Matthew 24:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
This is Jesus talking about the Jews ( both Christian and non-Christian ) living in Jerusalem being destroyed from the Roman army that came in 70AD.
For the Christian - Christ will be faithful to us for He is the overcoming One within us. We have our faith in Him - not in ourselves.
Jesus is the Savior - we do not save ourselves. That's a perversion of the gospel. Only the gospel has the power for salvation - Romans 1:16-17 - for in "it" the righteousness of God is revealed. Not our own righteousness.
The unbelief in the work of Christ astounds me. Now I understand why the Lord told a man that he is going to be a missionary - The man asked "Where Lord?" The Lord said "to right where you are. I am sending you to be a missionary to the unbelieving believers so that we they will believe in Me."
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Matthew 24:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
This is Jesus talking about the Jews ( both Christian and non-Christian ) living in Jerusalem being destroyed from the Roman army that came in 70AD.
For the Christian - Christ will be faithful to us for He is the overcoming One within us. We have our faith in Him - not in ourselves.
Jesus is the Savior - we do not save ourselves. That's a perversion of the gospel. Only the gospel has the power for salvation - Romans 1:16-17 - for in "it" the righteousness of God is revealed. Not our own righteousness.
The unbelief in the work of Christ astounds me. Now I understand why the Lord told a man that he is going to be a missionary - The man asked "Where Lord?" The Lord said "to right where you are. I am sending you to be a missionary to the unbelieving believers so that we they will believe in Me."
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
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Hello Chris1975,
I have tons of other examples on this subject, but a real good one is John 15 regarding Jesus being the True Vine and believers being the branches. My stand on this is that we have eternal security "if" we continue from faith to faith. Regarding this Paul also said the following:
"But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.if you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
"Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief,but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
Our eternal security is secure, if we continue in faith. Once a person goes back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, they have wandered from the truth and are no longer having faith. And while in that state they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death.
Our salvation is dependent upon continuing in faith. Otherwise I would have to ask as to why all of the warnings in scripture?
Why the letters to the seven churches? At the end of each letter is a promise to the overcomer. What if you don't overcome? Reverse the promises:
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