The Rapture

[PlainWord]

The problem with your interpretation(s) is that you keep moving the goal post... Is it Symbolic or Historical or grammitcal. One minute a particular verse is only symbolic but if challenged the the verse is then something else.

As far as the thief in the night goes,,,, it is apparent you are not watching much less believing it. It is ok. for I and the others will continue to believe until our resurrection via the rapture or our souls residing in heaven after our death here on earth ( I doubt you even believe in this point) awaiting the resurrection of our bodies. Either way it does not matter.

Symbolism is often found in prophesy but this symbolism comes from OT symbolism which is easily discerned, such as:

Beast = Evil World Empire
Grass = Common People
Fornication = Idolatry, False worship
Harlot = False Religion

We aren't talking about this type of symbolism. Instead we are discussing whether or not events that were foretold for them should instead be jumped thousands of years and applied to us. This is an example of spiritualizing the text. You guys are doing this, not me. The literal and plain reading of the text and the general sense of the attitudes of the first century indicate a first century fulfillment. When common personal pronouns are used, we must assume the writing applied to them.

The one moving the goal posts is you!! You moved it 2,000 years.

There are 3 earth ages each running ~2,000 years. The first age ran from Adam to Abraham. The second ran from Abraham until the destruction and scattering of the people in 70 AD. We are in the third age now and are at the 1,947 year mark assuming no overlap in ages.

The Bible devotes just 10 chapters to the first earth age and even less to the final earth age. The 4th age is the eternal age where just the final 2.5 chapters in Revelation are devoted. There is very little discussed about third age events, the one we are in. Almost all of the Bible is devoted to the second earth age, the Jewish age. Almost all of NT prophesy future to the writers dealt with the coming end of their age.

 

[PlainWord]

Good morning Issachar92,

Full Preterism is dangerous in that, along with allegorizing end-time events, claiming that the resurrection has already taken place, puts them under the same condemnation as Hymeneas and Philetus who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Regarding this, Paul called it godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene, that they had wandered from the truth and that they were destroying the faith of some. Preterism is detrimental to ones salvation.

The correct way to read the book of Revelation is "if the literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense." Take it at face value unless there is obvious symbolism. People who interpret Revelation as being completely symbolic are in error right from the get-go. In his book, one writer proclaimed that the book of Revelation is hyperbole i.e. exaggerated, not to be taken literally.

Those who do so will never be able to properly interpret the book of Revelation or end-time events.

Unbelievable. Paul's condemnation concerning Hymenaeus and Philetus who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place was warranted because it hadn't taken place as of when they were suggesting it. Jesus confirms that He returns after the Great Tribulation of Israel (66-70 AD). Paul confirms in his second letter to the Thessalonians that the Day of Christ would be after the Man of Sin who deceived in Jerusalem is revealed, and he was. This happened in 70 AD as I pointed out.

I have not spiritualized any of this, you have by pushing this event into the distant future. Paul tells the Thessalonians that they will have rest when Jerusalem is on fire and Christ is revealed with His angels.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The expectation Paul was giving them was for them in their life time, not to 100 generations into the future.

 

[VCO]

Too bad that you are unable to answer my simple questions about the dragon iron beast empire.


1. Who is the iron legs that last until the stone strikes?

The Roman Empire, you got that right.

2. Who was the iron legs, 500 years ago?

3. Since the legs have not divided into the toes yet, in your time line, who are the iron legs right Now?

---

You see, the dragon iron beast nation has been here since invading Israel.

Caesar Antichrist destroyed Jerusalem in 70 ad.

Caesar is still here today, can you guess who sits on the seat of the beast right now?

---

I gave you a link to 37 hours of sermons by Dr. John MacArthur, Jr., which is an intense verse by verse study of Revelation. It is on the gty.org site. Plus he certainly has an equally good series on the book of Daniel. They an audio series of his sermons, that you can listen to, if you really want to know what we absolutely believe and understand via the teaching of the Holy Spirit. As for answering your Twilight Zone FALSE THEOLOGY, I have better things to do with my time than to try to exlain it to someone who will not listen and cannot understand because he does not have the Holy Spirit in him/or/her teaching and giving understanding. You need to be born again first.

One last point, the false religion of the Original Roman Empire was not a Christian Religious leader being bowed to, IT was emperor worship, AND HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN LEADER. NATO and the EU headquarters are in Brussles, they the G7 Nations are the best possible fits for Beast rising out of the sea, not the Pope.

 

[Issachar92]

I feel like its impossible to debate reasonably with a preterist because nothing means what it says, therefore there is no way to pin em down on anything.
Its all hyperbole and symbolic. What annoys me the most is that they sweep most of the old testament prophecies to Israel under the rug and re-interpret Israel and Jerusalem as church or gospel or something.
I heard some weirdo say that Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in the bible refers to the church being persecuted, i couldn't believe it.

 

[RickyZ]

Plainword, I would challenge you this:

Get a Bible you don't mind defacing. Then every time you come across scripture that you believe does not apply to you, tear that page out. Then at the end of a year, look back and see how much of God's word you have dismissed as being irrelevant to you.

 

[valiant]

Plainword, I would challenge you this:

Get a Bible you don't mind defacing. Then every time you come across scripture that you believe does not apply to you, tear that page out. Then at the end of a year, look back and see how much of God's word you have dismissed as being irrelevant to you.

LOL we'd ALL have small Bibles on your basis.. But who says they are irrelevant? They build up the picture for the next phase of God's Plan. Thus ALL are relevant.

 

[valiant]

I feel like its impossible to debate reasonably with a preterist because nothing means what it says, therefore there is no way to pin em down on anything.

I think that is unfair to Preterists. They take much more literally than you do.

Its all hyperbole and symbolic. What annoys me the most is that they sweep most of the old testament prophecies to Israel under the rug and re-interpret Israel and Jerusalem as church or gospel or something

.

well I am not a preterist. But the OT prophecies were often speaking of the age of the new Israel, the church of Jesus Christ. The true church was the fulfilment of Israel (Eph 2.11-21; 1 Pet 2.9) His new congregation..

I heard some weirdo say that Jerusalem being surrounded by armies in the bible refers to the church being persecuted, i couldn't believe it.

No that was either 539 BC or 70 AD.

 

[PlainWord]

Plainword, I would challenge you this:

Get a Bible you don't mind defacing. Then every time you come across scripture that you believe does not apply to you, tear that page out. Then at the end of a year, look back and see how much of God's word you have dismissed as being irrelevant to you.

I could say the opposite to you. You act like Jesus had nothing pertinent to say to his people in the Olivet and that Paul had nothing relevant for his audience and that everything prophetic relates to you. How naive.

 

[RickyZ]

I could say the opposite to you. You act like Jesus had nothing pertinent to say to his people in the Olivet and that Paul had nothing relevant for his audience and that everything prophetic relates to you. How naive.

I think God's word, being eternal, apply to ALL of us, past present and future.

But you're more than welcome - without the personal insults - to believe that large parts of God's eternal word don't apply to you. Start ripping pages!

You'd love this, the work is done for you:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10658-new-improved.html

 

[RickyZ]

LOL we'd ALL have small Bibles on your basis.. But who says they are irrelevant? They build up the picture for the next phase of God's Plan. Thus ALL are relevant.

When someone claims 'this scripture isn't written to me' then to them that scripture is irrelevant. And I haven't torn out a page yet

 

[Bladerunner]

Start at 1 Thes 1:1 and begin reading. Please point out to me the verse where Paul stops addressing them and switches to discussing events thousands of years into their future. Then start at Mat 24:1 and do the same thing. I want to see the verse where we are told Paul (or Jesus in the case of Mt 24) is no longer discussing their generation and where they leap frog over 100 generations to get to us.

PW it would not matter... the way I read that verse and the way you and others read it are THREE DIFFERENT Events.

Sorry not playing your game.

 

[Bladerunner]

PW I will say this,,,,Paul started the Thessalonian Church in Acts 17-18. I suggest you read it first before the epistles 1-2 Thessalonians.

Why did Paul leave Thessalonica and where did he go (where he wrote the 2 epistles of Thessalonians)?

In 1 Thes 1-3 because of the non-believing Jews, a lot of the "Baby" Christians at Thessalonica were asking a lot of questions about what Paul had taught them before. They had lost some family, friends and had thought they missed the Rapture. So Paul had already told them about it. In chapter 4:13-18, Paul again tells his Children (what he though about them (chapter 2)) about the Rapture. That they would indeed see their friends and family again. I'll let you read it

In Chapter 5, he tells them about the period after the Rapture (the tribulations).

Two words (you like to play with words)that were spoken in Chapter 4 and Chapter 5 tells us who he was talking to and about.

1 thess 4:17..."17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those that died) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 thess 5: Paul is talking to the Thessalonians and starting in 1 thess 5:3 he changes his tune (so to speak)and uses the the PRONOUN "THEY" 1 thess 5:3.."For when they shall say...", 1 thess 5:4.."For they that sleep ...."

Paul then turns back to those in his present day Thessalonica, and tells them 1 thess 5:8 " But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

I know you try your best to remove the Rapture from the minds of those who strive to understand the Holy scriptures. There is only one way to read 1 thess and this is it.....
I pray that God grants you a different insight to His Holy Words than you have now...

Blade

 

[PlainWord]

I think God's word, being eternal, apply to ALL of us, past present and future.

But you're more than welcome - without the personal insults - to believe that large parts of God's eternal word don't apply to you. Start ripping pages!

You'd love this, the work is done for you:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/10658-new-improved.html

Yes, there is instruction for all of us but to say prophetic events apply to all of us through history is unsound. There was only one "great tribulation" as Christ makes clear here: [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. The "nor ever shall be" means it happened once and will not repeat to this level of hardship (tribulation). This happened from 66-70 AD and ended at the parousia of Christ on Aug 10, 0070 when the Temple was destroyed. Only those in Judea were told to flee. You (and plenty of others) want to take this passage out of context and move it into our future and have it apply to the entire planet when the text is clear that this is a one-time event and applies only to Israel (Judea).

No nation will ever endure the hardship (great tribulation) the Jews in Jerusalem and Judea suffered from 66-70 AD. Again, you ignore this fulfillment and spiritualize it to a level far beyond anything I've ever been accused of spiritualizing. The GT happened over 1,900 years ago and we are still here.

Was there a rapture? Yes!! It happened at the Lord's parousia just as Paul said it would. It happened after the GT of those days, just as Jesus announced it would. I know this notion runs contrary to everything you've ever been taught or believe, but that's what the text says and your lack of understanding won't change it.

 

[PlainWord]

When someone claims 'this scripture isn't written to me' then to them that scripture is irrelevant. And I haven't torn out a page yet

It's one thing to say the whole scripture applies to everyone throughout time as there is instruction, hope and edification for all of us. I agree with this. But, it's quite another thing to suggest that all prophesy is applicable to us. This would mean that nothing prophetic has been fulfilled. If you think this, there is no helping you.

 

[PlainWord]

PW it would not matter... the way I read that verse and the way you and others read it are THREE DIFFERENT Events.

Sorry not playing your game.

It's been my experience that when a question is posed and dodged it usually means the one dodging doesn't have an answer and cannot explain nor support their view with scripture. There may be 3 views but only one is correct and the clear reading points to only one conclusion - that is past fulfillment.

 

[popeye]

It's been my experience that when a question is posed and dodged it usually means the one dodging doesn't have an answer and cannot explain nor support their view with scripture. There may be 3 views but only one is correct and the clear reading points to only one conclusion - that is past fulfillment.

When was there ever a world wide mark or flying scorpions?

 

[PlainWord]

PW I will say this,,,,Paul started the Thessalonian Church in Acts 17-18. I suggest you read it first before the epistles 1-2 Thessalonians.

Why did Paul leave Thessalonica and where did he go (where he wrote the 2 epistles of Thessalonians)?

In 1 Thes 1-3 because of the non-believing Jews, a lot of the "Baby" Christians at Thessalonica were asking a lot of questions about what Paul had taught them before. They had lost some family, friends and had thought they missed the Rapture. So Paul had already told them about it. In chapter 4:13-18, Paul again tells his Children (what he though about them (chapter 2)) about the Rapture. That they would indeed see their friends and family again. I'll let you read it

In Chapter 5, he tells them about the period after the Rapture (the tribulations).

Two words (you like to play with words)that were spoken in Chapter 4 and Chapter 5 tells us who he was talking to and about.

1 thess 4:17..."17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (those that died) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1 thess 5: Paul is talking to the Thessalonians and starting in 1 thess 5:3 he changes his tune (so to speak)and uses the the PRONOUN "THEY" 1 thess 5:3.."For when they shall say...", 1 thess 5:4.."For they that sleep ...."

Paul then turns back to those in his present day Thessalonica, and tells them 1 thess 5:8 " But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation."

I know you try your best to remove the Rapture from the minds of those who strive to understand the Holy scriptures. There is only one way to read 1 thess and this is it.....
I pray that God grants you a different insight to His Holy Words than you have now...

Blade

I went back and read Acts 17-18. Your point is?

The passages you cite and these ones below convict you of the errors of your interpretations. This is basic reading comprehension. See if you can pick out who the below verses were intended for. All of this was for them in their times.

1 Thes 1:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thes 2:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, [SUP]16 [/SUP]forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? [SUP]20 [/SUP]For you are our glory and joy.

1 Thes 3:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

So far everything Paul was saying he meant for them, the Thessalonians who were suffering tremendous persecution. Paul is comforting them by telling them that it will all be worth it when Christ comes. Paul is saying that Christ is coming and they will be delivered from His wrath. This deliverance is not necessary if they were to be dead 2000 years and already in heaven. Stay with me now, here comes the fun part.

1 Thes 4:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul is giving them comfort by telling them that when the Lord comes, they will be caught up with those who have died.


1 Thes 5:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Even after the Romans initially surrounded Jerusalem in 66 AD and again in 68 AD, the Jews inside had a false sense of security because of their massive walls which were thought to be impenetrable. But God's wrath used the Romans to eventually prevail against those wicked, unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No Christian was lost in the wrath event as history tells us. Here comes the kill shot.

2 Thes 1:

that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; [SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels...[SUP]10 [/SUP]when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe...

Again, Paul is still writing to the Thessalonians and using the second person pronoun "you" to mean them, not some descendants thousands of years later. They were suffering persecution, they will get rest with Paul (who would be dead by 70 AD and apparently he knew it). Paul goes on to tell them about events at the temple which will precede Christ's presence return.

 

[PlainWord]

When was there ever a world wide mark or flying scorpions?

We were discussing 1 & 2 Thes and Mat 24. We were not in Rev. If you can answer the question as to where the discussion moved from the current audience to a generation thousands of years into the future in either passage, I'd love for you to point it out my good friend.

 

[PlainWord]

There are obviously several areas of disagreement we are having on these pages. A major one seems to be the lack of understanding what the parousia of the Lord (Christ) actually means. The best way I can think to describe it is to compare it to the Shekinah glory of God. God appeared in His Shekinah glory many times in the OT.

The word shekinah does not appear in the Bible, but the concept clearly does. The Jewish rabbis coined this extra-biblical expression, a form of a Hebrew word that literally means “he caused to dwell,” signifying that it was a divine visitation of the presence or dwelling of the Lord God on this earth. The Shekinah was first evident when the Israelites set out from Succoth in their escape from Egypt. There the Lord appeared in a cloudy pillar in the day and a fiery pillar by night: “After leaving Succoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people” (Exodus 13:20–22).

God spoke to Moses out of the pillar of cloud in Exodus 33, assuring him that His Presence would be with the Israelites (v. 9). Verse 11 says God spoke to Moses “face to face” out of the cloud, but when Moses asked to see God’s glory, God told Him, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live” (v. 20). So, apparently, the visible manifestation of God’s glory was somewhat muted. When Moses asked to see God’s glory, God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock, covered him with His hand, and passed by. Then He removed His hand, and Moses saw only His back. This would seem to indicate that God’s glory is too awesome and powerful to be seen completely by man.

The visible manifestation of God’s presence was seen not only by the Israelites but also by the Egyptians: “During the last watch of the night the LORD looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion. He made the wheels of their chariots come off so that they had difficulty driving. And the Egyptians said, ‘Let's get away from the Israelites! The LORD is fighting for them against Egypt’” (Exodus 14:24-25). Just the presence of God’s Shekinah glory was enough to convince His enemies that He was not someone to be resisted.

When Christ returned in Mat 24:29-31, it was His parousia or presence return. He appeared in the temple for a half hour and when the priests brought a heifer in to sacrifice, it bore forth a Lamb. Both events are described by Josephus. Think of how incredible this was. A baby calf giving birth to a lamb? When has that ever happened? The entire temple was lit up so bright that the light which came from it was bright enough to turn the darkness outside into daylight. Can anyone explain this without there being the presence of the Lord?

 

[valiant]

When was there ever a world wide mark or flying scorpions?

The mark covered the roman world. and the flying scorpions are symbolic of demon power