Women should not be allowed to preach in church

[SovereignGrace]

So, I am copying and pasting something I wrote here, sometime in the past. I hope all those people with their bad Bible translation will read it and pay attention! Oh, this might have been a copy and paste of a copy and paste. It seems I was pretty upset when I wrote it.


I have said this so many times I am getting tired of it. People take an English translation and read into the text what is NOT there in the original language. They forget the context and rip verses out of their setting and who the book was written to!

Paul wrote the epistles to the various churches he founded and had pastored. In Corinthians, example, he writes to the church in Corinth. He addresses addresses various issues, including the sins of certain men.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.

In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.

"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14

In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12

It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb and made it a continuing tense.

The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανέτω, or manthaneto*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:

PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!

Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".

ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, the hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!

As far as the word "authority" which has been a constant debate in this forum, and used by men to suppress women, mock them and put them down, we need to look in depth at the word!

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεντείν) in Greek. According to Rogers Jr and Rogers III, it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat."* So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia ἐξουσία.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18 ESV

"καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων· Ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ [a]τῆς γῆς·" Matt. 28:18 Greek

As far as the word translated "silent" in the KJV and other versions, ESV has it right, according to Danker **, the word ἡσυχίᾳ, should be translated as "quiet, well-ordered." That does not mean being absolutely silent. It means speaking at the right time.

Finally, it should be remembered that in that culture, women were not educated, and were little more than slaves or property. When they became Christians, they became equal with men (Gal 3:28) and they were joint heirs with Christ. BUT, they were not educated, and learning was essential. Most of the women could not read or write, and thus it was important for them to be instructed by men who were educated. Thank God, we are now educated, and we are able to understand, study and read the Bible for ourselves.

So, yes, you can teach. Now the men may not listen, because they do not understand the context or the Greek. They may threaten us, call us names, but God will deal with them in his time, for their discouragement and for trying to hold back the calling of God.

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.

**A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Frederick William Danker based on Walter Dauer's German version. The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

Thanks very much for your very well thought out and articulated post.

However, Paul also said in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 that an elder or deacon must be the HUSBAND of one wife. That right there excludes them from the pastorate or deaconship.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Scriptures are not talking about the Gospel being presented in evangelism. It's speaking of teaching men in authority and Romans 16:1 names a sister with the Greek word of teacher/servant, so women taught in the Church but at what capacity it doesn't say.

My daughter and I were checking out a church and on mothers day they had a women teaching and it was horrible, she tried to go gangster, like she used to be some fighting ghetto girl. Even my daughter thought it was dumb, she just did not have that in her. She gave it her best shot, but it was not natural.

Here's what I see women can teach, to what capacity? Not over men, why? Because Eve was deceived and the structure from the Lord is women are to be in subjection to there husband, not men. So women are not to have authority over men or their husband. I Corinthians 14 says if they want to learn, ask their husband at home, not in the Church service. Women are to be silent in the Church, when it comes to teaching over men. Can they prophecy? I would think so, but I'm not totally sure yet, I am doing some research on it.

Here's where I see the problem, is the Church is trying to comfort to the world, because of women lib. We do not need to conform to the world, we need to conform to the image of Christ. Please do not introduce, "there is neither male not female" here because the context of that is on salvation. Because in the Jewish system women are second class citizens, the synagogues had two stories with women in one a men in the other, they never sat together. I'm wondering they still used that system, so it would be very distracting if you had a wife yelling down or up to here husband, saying, hey babe what does that mean? Does this mean women should never talk at Church, I do not think so, unless she' yelling to her husband.

This is a really touchy subject.

Can women teach in the Church, yes they can, can they teach or have authority over men, no.

I read somewhere in regards to women being silent in church was due to how they sat in service. The men sat on one side and the women on the other. If the wife was desirous of asking her husband a question, she'd either have to get up and walk over to him or ask him openly. Either way, that would be a distraction during the service.

Not the hardline approach where a women had to literally not speak a word. If that's the case, they'd be outta line when singing.

 

[ChristCenteredGirl]

So then are you saying that Adam miscommunicated the instructions to Eve? Because in Genesis 3:2-3, Eve responds the the serpents question regarding the forbidden fruit with, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said "You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die."
I don't recall in Scripture where God said you can't "touch" the fruit. But it sounds to me like Adam did communicate the message to Eve....

Note, that God commanded the man in verse 17 to NOT to eat of the Tree, and Eve was not made until verse 22. There is your real order of creation. Man, totally responsible for communicating the command not to eat, and making sure that she understood how serious it was. But, not only did he not do his job, but he also went ahead and ate, in DIRECT disobedience to God's only command.


I rest my case!

 

[Gabriel2020]

If people would read close enough, They would see that Paul had a problem with married women teaching in the church as leaders,because their covering would be shamed, which is their husbands and the woman's long hair. And the husband's covering is God. In that order. He knew the temptations of men not keeping their minds on God, instead, the woman would be a distraction.That was definitely his opinion. That modern day expression that men are dogs was applied back in that day. They want a woman, and more than one if they can have them.But this is what God Said concerning man and woman: Acts;2; 17-18;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out my of my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy,and your young men shall see visions,and your old men shall dream dreams.18; And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; And they shall prophesy. The weaker vessel must be the most faithful,and strongest in the kingdom of God.

 

[Titilope]

yes Adam was there with her.Read. Gen3 v 6

 

[wolfwint]

If people would read close enough, They would see that Paul had a problem with married women teaching in the church as leaders,because their covering would be shamed, which is their husbands and the woman's long hair. And the husband's covering is God. In that order. He knew the temptations of men not keeping their minds on God, instead, the woman would be a distraction.That was definitely his opinion. That modern day expression that men are dogs was applied back in that day. They want a woman, and more than one if they can have them.But this is what God Said concerning man and woman: Acts;2; 17-18;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out my of my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy,and your young men shall see visions,and your old men shall dream dreams.18; And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; And they shall prophesy. The weaker vessel must be the most faithful,and strongest in the kingdom of God.

Hm, what you think? Joel meant with his prophecie? Jews? Gentiles? Christians?
Paul had no problem with woman teaching neither married nor unmarried. Its about Evas sin that they should not teach ore rule/dominate/have authority about man. Either what Paul wrote is Gods word ore its his own will. Then we can question all what is written in the scripture as the folks which follow the historical bible critism. Maby in heaven you can ask him
I believe it is Gods word!

 

[wolfwint]

If Eve was deceived, (yes she was!) at least she was not blatantly disobedient like Adam.

In fact, Eve was not even created when God gave Adam the command in the garden, not to eat of the Tree of Good and Evil.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for[e] him.”19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed[f] every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh.22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man." Gen. 2:14-22

Note, that God commanded the man in verse 17 to NOT to eat of the Tree, and Eve was not made until verse 22. There is your real order of creation. Man, totally responsible for communicating the command not to eat, and making sure that she understood how serious it was. But, not only did he not do his job, but he also went ahead and ate, in DIRECT disobedience to God's only command.

In fact, people love to blather on about this order of creation nonsense, but what does Paul actually say about sin entering the world?

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Romans 5:12-14

So, how did sin come into the world? Through ONE MAN! And his name was Adam! Now, I will concede Paul uses anthropos rather than aner, but it is pretty obvious his is talking about ONE, enos anthropou ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου, and his name is Adam.

I just really annoys me how even women can say, "I believe the Bible" and yet they have never taken the time to read it, just listen to authoritarian complimentarian men twist Scriptures.

No, Adam, the man is the cause of the entire Fall, and thank goodness for Jesus, or what a mess we would be in, because of the man.

However, in light of Adam being the cause of the Fall, I will have to say men are not stable enough nor obedient enough to God to be preachers. My conclusion is that women do a better job of running things, and especially when you look at all the heretical preachers there are out there that are men, from John MacArthur and John Piper, to Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen and Joseph Prince, they are all preaching something wrong, somewhere.

Therefore, women need to be the ones preaching, and in "authority." And if that sounds dumb, well then just read all the stupid comments in this thread written by both men and women who have no knowledge of what the Bible really says at all.

"sin came into the world through one man" Romans 5:12 and his name was ADAM!

I rest my case!

Angela, is 1.Timothy 2, 11-14 word of God ore not? If it is the word of God you set yourself over the word of God!
the word authenteo means not only in KJV, also in the german translations: rule, dominate, authority about, be Master over, this all are words which say that somebody is over another person.
And there is no different between a married ore unmarried woman in the text, because the word gyne also means widows ore not married woman.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a timely article that came out today on this subject. It appears the Greek word for "bishop" has a female version of it and the KJV translators changed the meaning of the word.

Phoebe Was a Woman "Set Over" Others

Paul also said that Phoebe had been a prostatis to many, and of myself also. The KJV and NKJV translate the word as "helper," but Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon says that prostatis refers to "a woman set over others" and that it describes Phoebe as a "guardian, protector and benefactor." Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says that prostatis is a word of "dignity" and indicates the high esteem with which she was regarded.

These definitions arecorrect for prostatis is made up of the prefix pro, meaning "before," and "istemi," meaning "to stand." It, therefore, literally means "to stand before" and identifies Phoebe as a leader with the qualities one would expect in a modern-day pastor (Hyatt, Paul, Women and Church, 28).

Phoebe Had "Stood Before" Paul

Some will argue that Phoebe was merely a patroness to Paul who supplied financial support for his ministry. However, the overall sense of the passage, including Paul's designation of her as a "minister," mitigates against such an interpretation. She was one who had "stood before" others, including Paul himself.

An argument could be made from this passage that Phoebe had, at some time, functioned in a pastoral type role toward Paul. He obviously holds her in high esteem, for he exhorts the Roman believers, both men and women, to receive her and respect her "in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints," and to assist her "in whatever manner she may have need of you" (Rom. 16:2).


Women Pastors in the New Testament

The tradition against a woman functioning as a pastor is so strong in some circles that it will not even be considered. Part of the reason is a misunderstanding of the nature of New Testament Christianity. Whereas the modern church tends to be institutional, official and programmatic, the New Testament church was dynamic, fluid and Spirit-led.

Here is the rest of the article for those interested.

Did Paul Have a Woman as His Pastor? — Charisma News

 

[preacher4truth]

yes Adam was there with her.Read. Gen3 v 6

Right. Examine everything from the Word and you won't make the mistakes you're making on other issues, i.e. promoting false teachers and endorsing them as from God.

 

[wolfwint]

Here is a timely article that came out today on this subject. It appears the Greek word for "bishop" has a female version of it and the KJV translators changed the meaning of the word.

Phoebe Was a Woman "Set Over" Others

Paul also said that Phoebe had been a prostatis to many, and of myself also. The KJV and NKJV translate the word as "helper," but Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon says that prostatis refers to "a woman set over others" and that it describes Phoebe as a "guardian, protector and benefactor." Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says that prostatis is a word of "dignity" and indicates the high esteem with which she was regarded.

These definitions arecorrect for prostatis is made up of the prefix pro, meaning "before," and "istemi," meaning "to stand." It, therefore, literally means "to stand before" and identifies Phoebe as a leader with the qualities one would expect in a modern-day pastor (Hyatt, Paul, Women and Church, 28).

Phoebe Had "Stood Before" Paul

Some will argue that Phoebe was merely a patroness to Paul who supplied financial support for his ministry. However, the overall sense of the passage, including Paul's designation of her as a "minister," mitigates against such an interpretation. She was one who had "stood before" others, including Paul himself.

An argument could be made from this passage that Phoebe had, at some time, functioned in a pastoral type role toward Paul. He obviously holds her in high esteem, for he exhorts the Roman believers, both men and women, to receive her and respect her "in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints," and to assist her "in whatever manner she may have need of you" (Rom. 16:2).


Women Pastors in the New Testament

The tradition against a woman functioning as a pastor is so strong in some circles that it will not even be considered. Part of the reason is a misunderstanding of the nature of New Testament Christianity. Whereas the modern church tends to be institutional, official and programmatic, the New Testament church was dynamic, fluid and Spirit-led.

Here is the rest of the article for those interested.

Did Paul Have a Woman as His Pastor? — Charisma News

If you honest you must say it is just speculation.
Interesting, but speculation without scripture proof.

 

[Issachar92]

That's right. They shouldn't. Because men are created to be the leaders of the church. God created Adam first, then Eve. Eve was the first to be deceived by the serpent because she relied on her feelings and emotions. Women tend to be deceived easily than men. That's why they are to be submissive to their husbands and remain quiet in the church. Men are supposed to take the leadership roles within the church; pastors, elders, and teachers. That doesn't mean women can't teach. They can teach other women and children but not over men in a congregation, I believe. Read Titus 2:1-5.

God bless your soul. This coming from a 24year old woman in Christ from Texas in the year 2017.
I gave reputation, I wish there were more people like you in Finland.

To all you texan guys out there, put a ring on it FAST.

 

[proverbs35]

Women tend to be deceived easily than men.

Paul said THE WOMAN ( as in 1 - singular - not plural) was deceived. Who was that woman? Eve. Paul NEVER said that all women, most women or women in general are more easily deceived than men. That's not in the Bible, nevertheless certain camps like to assert that "women are more easily deceived than men" although Paul never said that. Paul did say, "ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17). So, we aren't limited to just the scriptures that Paul wrote. There are numerous well- documented, Biblical examples of women who were not deceived: Sarah, Mary, Esther, Jehosheba, Huldah, Lydia, Rahab, Midwives, Abigail, Dorcas, Phoebe, Deborah, Wise Woman of Abel, Women who traveled with Jesus, Anna, Queen of Sheba, Priscilla, Zipporah, Faithful Canaanite Mother, Rufus' mom, Lois, Eunice, Jochebed, Hannah. Therefore, what Paul said about Eve being deceived doesn't apply to ALL women, and there's no concrete evidence to prove that it applies to MOST women.

Eve was deceived. There's no denying that. Likewise, the very same Bible tells us that numerous male leaders were involved in and propagated deceptive cult practices, idolatry, and heresies: Jeroboam (1 Ki 14:1-20), Nadab (1 Ki 15:25-26), Baasha (1 Ki 15:32-34, 16:1-17, 6:11-13) Zimri (1 Ki 16:19), Omri (1 Ki 16:25-26) Ahab (1 Ki 16:30-33), Ahaziah (1 Ki 22:51-53), Zechariah (2 Ki 15:9), Menahem (2 Ki 15:18), Pekahiah (2 Ki 15:24), Pekah (2 Ki 15:28), Ahaz (16:2-3), Manasseh (2 Ki 21:1-7,9-12,16, 24:3-4), Amon (2 Ki 21:20-22), Jehoiakim (2 Ki 23:37), Zedekiah (2 Ki 24:18-19) - to name a few.

Currently, most of the world's major false religions (cults) have been founded by men - not women: Islam (Muhammad), Buddhism (Sanskrit), atheistic communism, Sun Myung Moon's Unification, Mormons (Joseph Smith), Modern Witchcraft (Gerald Gardner), New Age movement (Edgar Cayce), Scientology (L. Ron Hubbard), Bahia (Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núr), Sikhism (Guru Nanak), David Koresh, Charles Manson, Jim Jones, Yaweh Ben Yaweh.

If some in the church are going to use the "Eve was deceived and women are more easily deceived than men" argument in order to try to prove that men are more cut out for leadership than women, it is only fair to talk about the numerous male leaders in scripture who were involved in and propagated deceptive cult practices, idolatry and heresies.

 

[Dino246]

We can teach women, children, and non-Christian men. But we are not permitted to teach over the Christian men of the congregation- therefore we are not permitted to preach in the pulpit. I say "permitted" because we are capable, but to let the Christian men lead is part of our punishment. Men have their own punishments, but this is one of ours.

Genesis 3:17-19...

Hard labor- you will work by the sweat of your brow to eat your food. (Also "If a man does not work he does not deserve to eat.")

Pain- The ground will produce thorns and thistles for you.

I was asking for scripture for the idea that, as a punishment, women may not teach men. I would also suggest that you read God's words to Even in Genesis 3 as a statement of consequence, not of punishment.

 

[wolfwint]

I was asking for scripture for the idea that, as a punishment, women may not teach men. I would also suggest that you read God's words to Even in Genesis 3 as a statement of consequence, not of punishment.

The consequence to be ruled from the man, to have pain while delivering and hard work conditions in my eyes it is a punishment. When our four children came I was along with my wife. It was no pleasure for her to have this strong pain!
And the thought that man should rule over their wife is for no woman a pleasure to hear. And many made and still makes very bad experiences with that!

 

[trofimus]

So, I am copying and pasting something I wrote here, sometime in the past. I hope all those people with their bad Bible translation will read it and pay attention! Oh, this might have been a copy and paste of a copy and paste. It seems I was pretty upset when I wrote it.


I have said this so many times I am getting tired of it. People take an English translation and read into the text what is NOT there in the original language. They forget the context and rip verses out of their setting and who the book was written to!

Paul wrote the epistles to the various churches he founded and had pastored. In Corinthians, example, he writes to the church in Corinth. He addresses addresses various issues, including the sins of certain men.

"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife." 1 Cor. 5:1.

In 1 Timothy he also addresses specific sins to two men.

"Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme." 1 Tim. 1:20

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." 1 Tim. 4:14

In fact, I have heard it said that there was a woman in Ephesus who was causing great harm in the church, but Paul did not name her, because he hoped to have her restored to the fellowship. What is extremely important about this verse, is that it does not apply to ALL women!! It is about A woman who is causing problems in the church.

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." 1Tim 2:11-12

It does not say SOME women or ALL women, but is addressed to A (singular) woman who was causing problems, probably a former priestess of Artemis. The pronoun SHE in the latter part of the verse is also singular because that is the tense of the verb. If Paul was wanting to address all women, for all time, he would have used the plural from of the verb and made it a continuing tense.

The first verb in Greek which then applies to following verses in this passage is LEARN. This is μανθανέτω, or manthaneto*. Because the third person pronoun is contained within the verb in Greek, I will examine this verb and the parsing is as follows:

PRESENT - That means it has to happen, NOW, - not the future or the past
IMPERATIVE - a woman is commanded to do this
ACTIVE - Means that the person must do it- it is not done to her
3 PERSON - he, she, it (in the singular) they (plural)
SINGULAR - ONE person only!!

Therefore the GREEK is very clear in saying that it is something that this woman is commanded to do NOW!! It is not forever, it is not continuing (Imperfect), it is not past or future. We do not have this verb tense in English, and properly it should be translated "LET HER".

ONE WOMAN, ONE PERSON - time is right now - in Ephesus in the 1st century AD.

I do hope some of you will take the time to read this. As I have said in so many places - (and NOT just about women), without a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew, you are depending on the personal bias of the translator. Although in this case, it is a pretty good translation. Single, present, and oh yes. Paul is personally commanding it to this woman, which also means it is a personal command, addressed to a single person, in a specific church -Ephesus! When we read the personal letters of Paul, which 1 & 2 Timothy both are, the hermeneutics is that he is talking directly to Timothy, the young pastor, about how to deal with specific situations - men who are bad and a woman who needs to be corrected!

As far as the word "authority" which has been a constant debate in this forum, and used by men to suppress women, mock them and put them down, we need to look in depth at the word!

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12 ESV

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ." 1 Tim. 2:12 Greek

The word AUTHORITY here is a hapax legomena. That means it appears only ONCE in the whole Bible. It is not the usual word in the New Testament for authority, which is exousia.

Instead, we have a word which cannot be translated in terms of the way it is in other Bible verses, but translators have to turn to other contemporaneous sources to find out what the word means.

The word is authentein, (αύθεντείν) in Greek. According to Rogers Jr and Rogers III, it means anything from "to act on one's own authority, to exercise authority, to murder, to domineer, to be an autocrat."* So ALL of these terms suggest that a woman is not to be without God's authority, nor dominate or be an autocrat over a man.

Contextually, this is very important, because Timothy was the pastor in Ephesus, which was the home of the goddess Artemis or Diana. The temple of Artemis was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and Paul had already had run-ins with their silversmiths, who resented that Paul was pulling people away from worship of Artemis and not needing their idols. (See Acts 19)

Now the big thing about these worshipers of Artemis, was that the temple was run by wild priestesses. They wore their hair long and unruly and they did some nasty things to men in the name of their idol.

So imagine if some of them get saved, or pretend to be saved, and came into a church, and start domineering and doing all kinds of cultic things. Well, I agree these women should not be in control. They should not be exercising authority over anyone. They need to unlearn a LOT of things!

So Paul was right to tell Timothy in a private letter, to kindly keep these women under control in Ephesus. Does this one verse apply to ALL women for ALL time? Well, I think it is best that neither men nor women dominate. So in that sense, it is universal. But because Paul picked this word - the ONLY time he used it in all his letters, he was not talking about any kind of authority given by God. That would be exousia ἐξουσία.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matt 28:18 ESV

"καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων· Ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ [a]τῆς γῆς·" Matt. 28:18 Greek

As far as the word translated "silent" in the KJV and other versions, ESV has it right, according to Danker **, the word ἡσυχίᾳ, should be translated as "quiet, well-ordered." That does not mean being absolutely silent. It means speaking at the right time.

Finally, it should be remembered that in that culture, women were not educated, and were little more than slaves or property. When they became Christians, they became equal with men (Gal 3:28) and they were joint heirs with Christ. BUT, they were not educated, and learning was essential. Most of the women could not read or write, and thus it was important for them to be instructed by men who were educated. Thank God, we are now educated, and we are able to understand, study and read the Bible for ourselves.

So, yes, you can teach. Now the men may not listen, because they do not understand the context or the Greek. They may threaten us, call us names, but God will deal with them in his time, for their discouragement and for trying to hold back the calling of God.

*The New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament, Cleon Rogers Jr, and Cleon Rogers III, Zondervan Publishing House, 1998.

**A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Frederick William Danker based on Walter Dauer's German version. The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

I am afraid you are making to many assumptions together with connecting them to various possibilities and so making the final result of your long post highly unlikely...

 

[CS1]

I have a women Pastor

 

[Dino246]

The consequence to be ruled from the man, to have pain while delivering and hard work conditions in my eyes it is a punishment. When our four children came I was along with my wife. It was no pleasure for her to have this strong pain!
And the thought that man should rule over their wife is for no woman a pleasure to hear. And many made and still makes very bad experiences with that!

While I agree that the consequences are unpleasant, and could therefore be seen as punishment, the argument fails when its application is extended to mean that God "intended" that husbands rule over their wives, or even that men rule over women generally. Think of it this way: if you are warning your children what will likely happen if they ride a bicycle without hands, and one does so, falls and is injured, is your warning a statement of consequence (what will happen, or will likely happen) or a punishment (because you disobeyed and rode without hands, I will ensure that you fall and are injured)? I contest that it is the former, not the latter, even though it is unpleasant for the child. To me it is a massive and critical difference.

I simply don't see that God, being both exceedingly good and wise, ever wanted men to rule over women, but rather, that men would do so because they are sinful. It completely undermines the argument that men must lead "because it's God's will that they rule over women according to Genesis 3". We live in a fallen world; there is much that is broken, including relationships between men and women. I don't see that the Church needs to perpetuate the brokenness by using flawed reasoning.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have a women Pastor

I personally believe in women pastors and that they can teach in the body of Christ.

There are some people that would say that a woman pastor/teacher is "heresy". They could say that any woman or person that supports this so-called "heretical" view is part of the end time deception. Having itching ears and not rightly dividing the word of truth...etc.

This would then give them the right as their "Christian duty" to publicly insult and de-mean and woman pastor/teacher and treat them in a condescending way.

The very worse ones could take a picture of one of these woman pastors and put her face in a wolf's head with sheep skin over it. They could then make a video up with devil horns on her head exposing her "heresy".

What would you think of that type of behavior?

 

[Angela53510]

Angela, is 1.Timothy 2, 11-14 word of God ore not? If it is the word of God you set yourself over the word of God!
the word authenteo means not only in KJV, also in the german translations: rule, dominate, authority about, be Master over, this all are words which say that somebody is over another person.
And there is no different between a married ore unmarried woman in the text, because the word gyne also means widows ore not married woman.

But this is what I said! Yes, the Greek says these things. Read my earlier post!

The issue is with which word to pick. Again, Authentein is a hapax legomena. It is only found ONCE in the bible. So, we cannot consult other uses of this word, and instead we have to use contemporaneous sources. That means, how do first century documents use this word?

But before we discuss that, we must ask the question, why did Paul use a word, found no where else in the bible? Surely if he was talking about "authority" it would have been so much simpler to just have used exousia? That is literally the word used for "authority" every other time this word can be found, at least in English.

It means that true authority that comes from God, the authority and power which only Jesus has, is NOT the word that Paul is using.

So he uses an obscure word, instead. Why? Because, he didn't want his writing to imply men have the authority over women. In fact, authentein has over 50 different uses in 1st century literature. That includes definitions like murder and copulation. So why would Paul pick this word?

Well, I think authentein is a very negative word, talking about the behaviour of the women in church. The culture in Ephesus had been matriarchal, with the women priestesses running the cult practices at the temple of Artemis. So, they obviously weren't behaving! Now, remember this is a private letter to Timothy. A pastoral letter, to be exact. Paul was discussing something that Timothy must have written to him about. Just like 1 & 2 Corinthians are a part of 4 letters Paul wrote, and there were return letters, the fact that Paul wrote 2 letters to Timothy, implied some back and forth between the two of them.

Now, if Paul had used "exousia" the sentence structure would have been had to have been greatly changed to force it to say what people are claiming it says. That is:

"A man has authority over a woman."

But no, that is not what Paul is saying. He is not talking about any nonsensical roles, or order, he is addressing a PROBLEM in the church at Ephesus. So, he talks, using a word that implies negative behaviour on the part of the women.

What was that negative behaviour? Well, we can infer form the rest of the passage, two things.

1. A woman was being disruptive. She was trying to domineer, or pretend she was in authority (like she had been at the temple of Artemis - conjecture, I admit!)

2. This woman was teaching error. One of the myths of the cult religion of Artemis, was that woman was created first. Woman was first, then men. So the last part of chapter 2 also deals with the fact that this woman has bad theology. The Greek mystery religion may have believed the woman was created first, because they worshiped female fecundity. Witness the statures of Artemis, which the layers of breasts around her image on the statues they made.


So, Paul's goal was NEVER to come up with some a theology of hierarchy of roles in 1 Tim. 2. And NEVER to imply that women can't be pastors. His goal was to find some ways to ease the problems in Ephesus. He doesn't name the women (please remember women in 1 Tim. 2:12 is SINGULAR!) because he has hopes that she can be restored.

Why do we know he hopes this? Because elsewhere, he condemned Alexander and Hymenaeus. They are GONE! But, with the woman, he says that she is to learn quietly, (like the rabbinical students). And the word "learn" is in the imperative. So, she is commanded to learn. In other words, Paul wants her to stop taking over, when she probably has no clue as to what is going on, and learn the truth about Jesus. And the logical corollary of needing to learn, is not teaching a man, which it sounds like this woman had been doing!

Finally, such an important fact is that this word is an infinitive. You simply cannot say, "a woman is not to authority." Which is what you have to do to be true to the text. Hence, adding the verb "exercise, " and coming up with "exercise authority." No, you need a VERB to make it make sense. So, you could say "rule" or "dominate." But, since the other 1st century literature always uses this word in a negative sense, probably better to use something like "to dominate" rather than neutral words like "rule."

But, as far as this using this entire passage to prove;

a. Men have authority over women.
b. Women cannot be pastors

Not so much! This is simply not a verse which sets down a universal principle for all time. To read it that way, does a terrible injustice not only to this verse, chapter and book but to the entire Bible.

 

[Billyd]

I will not attempt to prove that women are not to be pastors. Personally I believe that God did not intend for women to fill that role. IMHO, if a woman believes that God has called her to preach, she should take up that calling with Him. If God is calling Her, she must answer that call.

I will caution anyone who believes that he/she is called to be a pastor, remember that Satan can use you to his benefit if he is the one doing the calling. Be sure that it is God calling.