Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[FranC]

You do not have free will.
If you do, prove it by walking away from Jesus.
You can't do it.

I love Jesus.
Why would I want to walk away from Him?
I know I can't do it.

BUT, don't you know anyone EVER who has walked away from Him?
We have a testimony in a different thread about a person who did.

Are you saying it's impossible to walk away?
We do not have free will?

Did we have it BEFORE we were saved?
Why would we not have it now?

Are you a calvinist?

 

[Sagart]

This lose your salvation false doctrine has done more harm to the body of Christ then any other foul thoughts put into the minds of man by our enemy.

This statement explicitly contradicts the history of the Church from its very beginning.

It creates a works-based/works-righteousness false doctrine that nullifies the very grace of God needed to operate like it was meant to in Christians lives.

God’s grace is the dynamic of God by which He saves us from sin and its consequences through our faith in Christ, a faith that is inseparable from good works which are an integral and essential part of that faith rather than a mere consequence of that faith.

 

[FranC]

Let me guess... you recommend get an appointment for some ointment with your pope?

Or maybe one of those priest dudes?

First of all, I've already stated that I will not speak to you. This will be the only time on THIS thread.

Second, I'm not Catholic. Don't know why you think I am. Maybe because I protect Catholics and will continue to do so.

However, let me say that the Pope and priests you make fun of have more knowledge in their little pinky than you will ever have in your entire being.

Read 1 Corinthians 1 - the Whole chapter.

Just by chance I hapened to read it this afternoon and it's just for you.

 

[FranC]

Nothing here says you can lose your salvation.
Your understanding of the English language is very weak at best.

What does 2 Timothy 2:16-19 mean to you?

 

[Rockrz]

I've already stated that I will not speak to you

And yet you keep doing it

the Pope and priests you make fun of have more knowledge in their little pinky than you will ever have in your entire being

Yeah, they know more about their satanic religious teachings than I do, that's fo sho

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Second, the lost sheep is referring to a person who HAS NEVER BEEN SAVED.

Really?


Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them ...


The shepherd had 100 sheep and lost 1.

If you notice, the lost sheep went willingly with Jesus. He didn't force the sheep to go back into the fold.

What do you mean "back into the fold"? According to your statement (quoted above) the sheep was never of the fold.


Having said that, I agree that the lost sheep went willingly. The sheep knows the shepherd and laid comfortably on his shoulders. That has been my point all along.


If/when the born again one strays, the Lord Jesus Christ goes and finds that believer and brings him/her back to the fold.


And because the believer recognizes the voice of the Shepherd, he/she lays quietly on the shoulder of the Lord and is brought back.


We have a Lord Who loves us and Who takes time to find us. Such a wonderful truth.

 

[Grace777x70]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based/works-righteousness false gospel which actually nullifies the very grace of God needed to live godly lives here on this earth.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord because we are one spirit with Him".

There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

 

[FranC]

All the scriptures from the OP have been answered many times and in many threads.

Is Jesus a liar? Can we really trust Him when He said that they Holy Spirit will be in you forever? Was He lying when He said that no one can pluck them out of My hands nor the Father's hand?

Was He lying when He said "I will never leave nor forsake you?"

The apostle John says this about our eternal life and the truth that abides with us forever.

1 John 5:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Here John is saying that the truth ( Jesus is the Truth. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth ) abides with us forever. John says that "all those that know the truth"

2 John 1:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]
The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

Everyone needs to decide whether Jesus and John are liars. I believe them.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in Christ so that they Christians can grow up in Him and bear much fruit.

Yes Grace,
But do those who fall away know the truth?

If we are free agents before we're saved, we must be free agents after we're saved.
If, as born again believers, we somehow participate in the love that is exchanged within the Trinity since we are the Church and Bride of Christ, then if I STOP showing this love and walk away from God, I will once again become lost.

James 5:19-20
Hebrews 10:26-28

 

[AllenW]

I love Jesus.
Why would I want to walk away from Him?
I know I can't do it.

BUT, don't you know anyone EVER who has walked away from Him?
We have a testimony in a different thread about a person who did.

Are you saying it's impossible to walk away?
We do not have free will?

Did we have it BEFORE we were saved?
Why would we not have it now?

Are you a calvinist?

If someone is really one of the sheep, God will bring them back.
After all, they know his voice.

 

[AllenW]

Yes Grace,
But do those who fall away know the truth?

If we are free agents before we're saved, we must be free agents after we're saved.
If, as born again believers, we somehow participate in the love that is exchanged within the Trinity since we are the Church and Bride of Christ, then if I STOP showing this love and walk away from God, I will once again become lost.

James 5:19-20
Hebrews 10:26-28

You can be lost but God will find you.
His sheep know his voice.

 

[AllenW]

Yes Grace,
But do those who fall away know the truth?

If we are free agents before we're saved, we must be free agents after we're saved.
If, as born again believers, we somehow participate in the love that is exchanged within the Trinity since we are the Church and Bride of Christ, then if I STOP showing this love and walk away from God, I will once again become lost.

James 5:19-20
Hebrews 10:26-28

You know these threads are always the same.
Everyone wants free will to walk away from God but no one ever does it.
And if you do, and you are truly saved, then God will find you and you will come back because you know his voice.
That makes OSAS (without all the stupid rules people attach to it) an accurate statement.

 

[FranC]

Really?


Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them ...


The shepherd had 100 sheep and lost 1.







What do you mean "back into the fold"? According to your statement (quoted above) the sheep was never of the fold.


Having said that, I agree that the lost sheep went willingly. The sheep knows the shepherd and laid comfortably on his shoulders. That has been my point all along.


If/when the born again one strays, the Lord Jesus Christ goes and finds that believer and brings him/her back to the fold.


And because the believer recognizes the voice of the Shepherd, he/she lays quietly on the shoulder of the Lord and is brought back.


We have a Lord Who loves us and Who takes time to find us. Such a wonderful truth.

Oh. Excuse me.

So you agree with me that there could be 100 sheep and ONE COULD GET LOST...
And must be brought BACK INTO THE FOLD....

Good.

 

[FranC]

You know these threads are always the same.
Everyone wants free will to walk away from God but no one ever does it.
And if you do, and you are truly saved, then God will find you and you will come back because you know his voice.
That makes OSAS (without all the stupid rules people attach to it) an accurate statement.

What about the persons this happens to?
Then you say they were never saved to begin with.
Who are YOU to say who is saved and who isn't?

Did Ignatius not know what he was talking about?
He knew John the Apostle !
Post no. 223. It's too late here for me to post it again.
Maybe Tomorrow...

 

[FranC]

You can be lost but God will find you.
His sheep know his voice.

God is Always looking for us.
We have to say YES.

IF I leave Him, I'm NOT His sheep anymore...

 

[graceNpeace]

Oh. Excuse me.

So you agree with me that there could be 100 sheep and ONE COULD GET LOST...
And must be brought BACK INTO THE FOLD....

Good.

The real point is that the sheep did not turn into a goat just because it got lost.
It was still a sheep!

Think about it

 

[Grace777x70]

The real point is that the sheep did not turn into a goat just because it got lost.
It was still a sheep!

Think about it

Exactly! Sheep do not turn into goats and there are no combination animals. "Shoats or geeps." Just like they don't go in and out of what kind of an animal they are - believers do not go in and out of Christ.

Eternal redemption means just that - eternal redemption because Christ is in us and He said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16 - All because of the love, mercy and grace of the Lord and He purchased our redemption with His own blood and life.

Unfortunately in some people's minds - eternal does not mean eternal. And it doesn't depend on what Christ has already done - it depends on what "you" do.

 

[Grace777x70]

Can some one un-born themselves from being a human? It's the same thing - we can un-born ourselves from the Holy Spirit - Jesus said He will be with you forever - He didn't add a caveat to His speech.

Either we believe Jesus or we don't. We can be sick in our bodies and go to heaven and we can be sick in our heads with wrong thinking and go to heaven because our inner man created in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness.

We are born again of incorruptible seed.

1 Peter 1:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[SUP]4 [/SUP] to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

In order to be "un-born" - the word of God will have to stop abiding forever.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. I choose to believe Jesus, Paul and John. I think we are called "believers" for a reason.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So you agree with me

If you believe eternal life is not lost then, yes, we are in agreement.


If, however, you believe the born again one loses eternal life, then no, I do not agree with you because I believe God when He says All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out (John 6:37).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

IF I leave Him, I'm NOT His sheep anymore…

If you are NOT His sheep anymore, then why would the shepherd leave the 99 to find the 1?


Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

 

[Grace777x70]

Some things cannot come from a change of mind after things have been put into being as an established truth.

Can someone by an "act of their will" or "changing their mind" un-born themselves from being a human being?

Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will by changing my mind - I am un-borning myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind and there is.. )

Can some one by "an act of their will" through the "changing of their mind" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents once they are born whether they like it or not.

We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lives and abides forever. We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.

Following God's commandments to us will be a natural result of being in Christ as we grow up in Him.

We are looking at what "we do" when we say that we lose salvation for going to heaven instead of what "Jesus has already done". It is a works-based doctrine that actually denies the work and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be with you and in you forever. Now, is Jesus a liar? That's a question to ask ourselves.

Our Father will perfect that which concerns us for it is He that is at work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. I'll trust His love in us to "guide us" through life. Phil. 2:13

There is also discipline of the Lord ( child-training in Greek - not "un-childing" them as children ) This proves that we are legitimate children of God.

Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.