The Rapture

Rockrz · May 20, 2017

All righty then... repeating what God said about gathering together with each other is being hateful.

My aren't you a tender little thing.

Just warm the milk up a little and folks start crying

Not sure about that, but some of those "books" are not inspired by the Lord.

That's hilarious... you sure know how to tell a good joke, that was funny man!

VCO · May 20, 2017

abcdef said:

The ten toes are at the end of the revival of the fourth and continue until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. WHICH HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET. IT IS A LITERAL/PHYSCICAL RETURN and when HIS FEET TOUCH GROUND FOR THE FIRST TIME ON HIS RETURN TO RULE FOR A 1000 YEARS FROM DAVID'S THRONE IN OUR EARTHLY JERUSALEM, THIS WILL LITERALLY HAPPEN, AND THERE IS NO SYMBOLISM IN THIS PROPHECY:

Zechariah 14:2-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] All the land from Geba to Rimmon* south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.

* MAP of GEBA to RIMMON (En-rimmon) south of Jerusalem:

EVERY THING FROM GEBA NORTH OF JERUSALEM TO RIMMON (ALSO KNOWN AS EN-RIMMON) WEST OF THE SALT SEA (DEAD SEA) ON THIS MAP WILL BECOME A HUGE PLAIN AT HIS SECOND COMING.

YOU GOT YOUR THEORY THAT CHRIST ALREADY RETURNED FROM A WATCHTOWER MAGAZINE, DIDN'T YOU?

Satellite Photo of Jerusalem and the surrounding area, . . . . GEE, IT STILL HAS NOT CHANGED TO A PLAIN.

Aerial Photo of Hebron, Israel, . . . . . . . GEE, NO PLAINS THERE EITHER:

Hills just north of Bethleham, . . . . . . . GEE, NO PLAINS THERE EITHER.

Olive Trees in the West Bank near the ancient City of GEBA, . . . . . . GEE, no plains there either:

CONCLUSION: Your Theory that He has already returned, is a made up lie, and you fell for it.
The Scriptures Prove It

VCO · May 20, 2017

abcdef said:

I have told before, but you either forget easily, or never read it, or ignore my replys.

The Statue of Nebuchanezzar's Dream Pictures NOT NATIONS BUT WORLD EMPIRES.

There have been only 4 MAJOR World Empires, but the FOURTH Empire, the IRON Legs is the Roman Empire, and the feet and 10 toes are the prophecied Revival of that Empire, starting near the End of MAN'S DAY of ruling this Earth. That Revival of the Rome Empire, means it rules over much of the same Territory. YES IT SAYS THE ROCK SMASHES THE FEET AND TOES, SO IT HAS TO BE AROUND AT THE END OF MAN'S RULE to fulfill that Prophecy. The feet and toes are made with iron AND clay, NOT JUST IRON as it's ORIGINAL EMPIRE was. THE European Union, functions like an EMPIRE, and occupies much of the same territory of the Original Roman Empire.

Daniel 2:34 (HCSB)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] As you were watching, a stone broke off without a hand touching it, struck the statue on its feet of iron and fired clay, and crushed them.

Every BORN AGAIN Christian I know, can explain BORN AGAIN, because it is a REAL personal Experience.

Quoting those two scriptures IS NOT EXPLAINING BORN AGAIN.

I see NO EVIDENCE in your posts that you are BORN AGAIN, in fact we are seeing the exact opposite in your posts.

Most of us DISAGREE TOTALLY with almost EVERY Prophecy you have tried to explain.

Matthew 7:14-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

The fruit you are producing will not pass any genuine fruit inspector.

Repent, and surrender control of your life out of LOVE for HIM and TRULY let JESUS CHRIST BE LORD AND MASTER OF YOUR LIFE, before it is too late.

Rockrz · May 20, 2017

Agreed!
Seems like mo preterists are coming online

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

The main problem with you pre-trib dispensationalists is that you have no audience integrity. You claim to be pure literalists yet you're the furthest thing from it. You add 2,000 year gaps, where none are taught and you take direct communication ("audience integrity") and apply it to their descendants thousands of years into the future.

Example 1:

and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.

Who was Paul speaking to and comforting, the first century Thessalonians who were suffering under enormous persecution or 21st century Christians living in relative peace and safety?

Example 2:

“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Who was Jesus speaking of, those standing before Him or their distant descendants?

Example 3:

[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Who was Jesus speaking to, the Sanhedrin questioning Him or their descendants thousands of years into the future who had nothing to do with His death?

Example 4:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

What age where they in, the present age, or some future age thousands of years in their future? If it's the latter then they had no blessed hope of seeing God and Jesus appear. Under your view, that "blessed hope" did not apply to them.

Example 5:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Who was Paul speaking to here and comforting? Who was alive at the time Paul wrote this? The Thessalonians or their descendants thousands of years into the future? What comfort would that be for them if this event that Paul was comforting them with was millennia into their future?

Example 6:

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Speaking of the martyrs who went before them, the writer of Hebrews is saying that those martyrs would not be made perfect (receive glorified, indestructible and incorruptible bodies) apart from those living Christians contemporary to the writer. The implication is that they would be made perfect with this martyrs in their lifetimes.

Example 7:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

Unless Christ were to come to church of Ephesus quickly, as in their lifetime, what difference would it make to them if their lampstand was removed? He is telling them to repent, not their descendants thousands of year later.

Example 8:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Would Christ come to the church of Pergamos if they don't repent or was He talking to someone else?

Example 9:

Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Why would they need to watch if He wasn't to come to them in their lifetime? Why watch for an event thousands of years into the future. The passage has a ring of immanency to it and a realistic threat that requires their immediate compliance.

Example 10:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Was this written to the church in Philadelphia or not? What good is this promise if they were going to be dead for thousands of years before the hour of trial was to come?

I could go on and on. Remember, "Audience Integrity." Words have meanings and warning have meanings to those they were delivered to. Sorry if this offends your futuristic views.

popeye · May 21, 2017

PlainWord said:

The main problem with you pre-trib dispensationalists is that you have no audience integrity. You claim to be pure literalists yet you're the furthest thing from it. You add 2,000 year gaps, where none are taught and you take direct communication ("audience integrity") and apply it to their descendants thousands of years into the future.

Example 1:

and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels.

Who was Paul speaking to and comforting, the first century Thessalonians who were suffering under enormous persecution or 21st century Christians living in relative peace and safety?

Example 2:

“Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Who was Jesus speaking of, those standing before Him or their distant descendants?

Example 3:

[SUP]64 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Who was Jesus speaking to, the Sanhedrin questioning Him or their descendants thousands of years into the future who had nothing to do with His death?

Example 4:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ..."

What age where they in, the present age, or some future age thousands of years in their future? If it's the latter then they had no blessed hope of seeing God and Jesus appear. Under your view, that "blessed hope" did not apply to them.

Example 5:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Who was Paul speaking to here and comforting? Who was alive at the time Paul wrote this? The Thessalonians or their descendants thousands of years into the future? What comfort would that be for them if this event that Paul was comforting them with was millennia into their future?

Example 6:

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Speaking of the martyrs who went before them, the writer of Hebrews is saying that those martyrs would not be made perfect (receive glorified, indestructible and incorruptible bodies) apart from those living Christians contemporary to the writer. The implication is that they would be made perfect with this martyrs in their lifetimes.

Example 7:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

Unless Christ were to come to church of Ephesus quickly, as in their lifetime, what difference would it make to them if their lampstand was removed? He is telling them to repent, not their descendants thousands of year later.

Example 8:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Would Christ come to the church of Pergamos if they don't repent or was He talking to someone else?

Example 9:

Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Why would they need to watch if He wasn't to come to them in their lifetime? Why watch for an event thousands of years into the future. The passage has a ring of immanency to it and a realistic threat that requires their immediate compliance.

Example 10:

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Was this written to the church in Philadelphia or not? What good is this promise if they were going to be dead for thousands of years before the hour of trial was to come?

I could go on and on. Remember, "Audience Integrity." Words have meanings and warning have meanings to those they were delivered to. Sorry if this offends your futuristic views.

History has no world wide mark that was required. Nor can you guys explain the flying scorpions,or the hailstones of fire etc,etc,etc,etc,etc.

You believe the rapture happens after the millineum.

I don't think you are going to "school" anyone here with your deal.

Someone on the board can talk to you for a year or so before they find out you believe the rapture after the millineum deal

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

You are speaking of prophetic symbolism with uncertain interpretation.

No, like you, I believe the rapture happened before the millennium. We disagree on the nature and timing of the millennium and great tribulation which preceded it.

Some have eyes to see and ears to hear, others don't. Was John the Baptist, or Jesus for that matter, concerned about how many would, or would not, receive their instructions?

If an intelligent person opened and read the Bible cover-to-cover for the first time without having any previous instruction what would they conclude about the great tribulation - who it applied to and when? What would they conclude about the timing of the return of Christ given the 10 examples I provided?

I notice you did not respond to any of those examples. If you had it would have required you to put thousands of years worth of gaps between the people receiving the message and the event they were told to look for.

Preterism is growing because it is the only way to harmonize all scriptures without doing verbal gymnastics. Even within Preterism there are at least 5 main variations. Of these 5 main views, 3 have the people alive when Christ returned in 70 AD staying on earth after the event to die naturally. 2 of these views have them returning with Him and the Saints to heaven after He poured out His wrath upon the wicked in Jerusalem. I just moved to the camp that says they went back to heaven, which is a major move for me. But, this is where the Word makes most sense.

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

Here's a link to an article which discusses the 5 main views of Preterists. It's a little dated but very compelling.

Five Views of the AD 70 Rapture and After | Planet Preterist

VCO · May 21, 2017

popeye said:

At least most posting here can understand that the fly scorpions are the fallen angels that tried to pollute the human race, to stop Messiah from coming. They are the ones that took wives that were the daughters of men, and were extremely successful, in that ONLY Noah and his family remained faithful. Thus that motivated God to destroy the human race and start over. Those particular demons were locked in the Abyss, and even the 2000 demons in the demoniacs at GADARA, were aware of that fact and were petrified that Christ was about to send them to the Abyss too.

Revelation 9:1-12 (YLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen to the earth, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and he did open the pit of the abyss, and there came up a smoke out of the pit as smoke of a great furnace, and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the pit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And out of the smoke came forth locusts to the earth, and there was given to them authority, as scorpions of the earth have authority,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] and it was said to them that they may not injure the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but--the men only who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months, and their torment is as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] and in those days shall men seek the death, and they shall not find it, and they shall desire to die, and the death shall flee from them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And the likenesses of the locusts are like to horses made ready to battle, and upon their heads as crowns like gold, and their faces as faces of men,
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and they had hair as hair of women, and their teeth were as those of lions,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and they had breastplates as breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings is as the noise of chariots of many horses running to battle;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and they have tails like to scorpions, and stings were in their tails; and their authority is to injure men five months;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and they have over them a king--the messenger of the abyss--a name is to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The first woe did go forth, lo, there come yet two woes after these things.

I believe the timing of that LITERAL EVENT, is definitely STILL FUTURE, because will be recorded by every historian and news reporter in the world. Most or possibly even all of the Tribulation Saints will have been martyred, and thus ONLY the 144,000 Jews sealed in their mortal bodies to repopulate Israel will be spared this WOE, pronounced on the unbelievers of this world.

VCO · May 21, 2017

Anyone besides me, just ignoring everything Plainword posts?

I am at the point of adding abcdef to that list too.

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

Just to add, I'm not a full preterist. I still see some future prophesy remaining to be fulfilled.

abcdef · May 21, 2017

VCO said:

No, Please don't confuse what I am saying with others, thanks.

Some, but not all was fulfilled by 70 ad.

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

VCO said:

That's okay, I stopped reading most of your posts some time ago. You keep stating and restating the same old doctrine I grew up with and grew out of as it is not Biblical.

abcdef · May 21, 2017

PlainWord said:

Brother Plainword,

1 Cor 15:23-28.

1. 1st resurrection, Jesus

2. 2nd resurrection, at His coming/rapture

3. Death is destroyed, Rev 20:14-15

4. the kingdom delivered up to the Father, for the wedding Rev 21:2

5. Jesus submits to the Father, all in all.

Jesus came with "clouds" of Roman armies at the dest of Jerusalem, but it was not a resurrection coming.

It was the end of the temple age.

abcdef · May 21, 2017

VCO said:

I pay close attention to what you say, but sometimes I have to think about things, so there might be a delay sometimes.

Ok, we will call them world empires.

But these empires are ruling over the people of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem.. That is the meaning of the statue.

The empires that are shown are "Western civilization" empires, not planet wide.

1. The answer to first question, the Roman Empire is the iron legs/toes empire.

2 more questions to go.

2. Who was the iron legs Empire 500 years ago?

3. Who is the iron legs empire at the present time?

You say that the period of the 10 toes has not started yet, so we are still in the iron legs, as you see it.
Who and where are the iron legs right now?

The iron legs empire of 500 years ago, and at present, that you will answer who it is in questions 2 & 3, will divide into 10 nations, and then be divided again by the clay.

It doesn't look to me like it "reunites", when it has not divided yet, it has to divide to reunite?

The toes get smaller, that shows diminishing power power over Israel, not increasing power.

I agree. In a general sense.

Vatican.

I agree in a general sense.

Yes. The clay is non-Roman nations, yes?

Empires are generally ruled by force, I don't think democracy would count as an empire.

What is the power in Rome right now?

This is not the beginning of the mill kingdom, it is the end.

Friend,

I am going to refuse to explain it to you, other than Acts 2:38, because you are setting a snare with intent to catch me in "words", rather than for our edification. Am I correct?

It is not a requirement for salvation, that I have to explain being born again to you.

Perhaps if you start a another thread on this, it would be a good subject.

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

abcdef said:

That's what I originally thought too but I provided passages that show it was also the resurrection of the OT saints and pre- parousia saints. Has to be. They were looking for and awaiting the glorious hope and the better resurrection. There are many more passages, here's another:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

If you believe that those alive to witness Christ's parousia return remained on earth then you are in one of these three preterists camps I mentioned before. Something is missing from this view. Where is the deliverance from Neronic persecution that was the hope of these first century people? Where are the incorruptible, immortal, glorified, spiritual bodies that they had been promised at the parousia? Where was the "better resurrection" that Paul spoke of? How was their salvation any nearer than when they first believed, as far as they could tell? Where was the hope of eternal life in the very presence of Jesus Christ Himself? And what about the face-to-face experience that they were promised? If we are to accept what you say, then we would have to abandon the glorious expectations promised in the New Testament for those first century living believers, all of which were to be unfolded at the parousia, or conclude that they had somehow been mislead.

The pre- parousia Christians were expecting to receive certain benefits, according to the scriptures, at the Second Coming. Jesus Himself would return and deliver His people from the persecutions that they were enduring, clothe them with their new, incorruptible, immortal, glorified, spiritual bodies, bestow upon them the rewards for faithfulness to Him, and receive them unto Himself in the place that He had gone to prepare for them soon after His ascension. (John 14).

The pre-parousia disciples of Jesus Christ were convinced that the promise of deliverance from persecution at the hands of the Jews and Romans in that first century could only be realized if the references to the rapture (ref. I Thes 4:13-17; I Cor. 15:51-57) were taken at face value. In addition to the deliverance from harsh treatment and other earthly perils, these Christians were eagerly anticipating the gathering together with the other large group of previously deceased and delivered out of Sheol/Hades pre-parousia believers and together would be escorted by the Lord Jesus to heaven, the place that He had prepared for them awaiting His parousia.

Included in that grand heavenly procession would be these two groups of God’s people, each one having been given their new incorruptible, immortal, glorified, spiritual bodies. Such an overt expectation virtually demanded an equally overt literal rapture. No mere positional, figurative, or covenantal change could ever fulfill the expectations of these living Christians, nor grant them the crowns, rewards, and words of commendation and praise that they had been led to expect for their faithfulness to Jesus.

Taken from:

Five Views of the AD 70 Rapture and After | Planet Preterist

VCO · May 21, 2017

PlainWord said:

HOWEVER you are STILL remain fully confused, expecially about prophecy.

Rockrz · May 21, 2017

I do too... the one where you start crying when you realize you got left behind by Jesus and have to go thru the tribulation cause you are a scoffer who did not believe God's Word.

That's gonna be tuff man... are you a prepper?

If not, you might wanna get on that...

abcdef · May 21, 2017

PlainWord said:

Brother Plainword,

This is what we were speaking about before, that the coming of Jesus with clouds of Roman armies, at the dest of Jerusalem, is mixed up with the resurrection/rapture coming, which is the last and 2nd coming for the kingdom.

Only 2 resurrections, Jesus and at His coming 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

Jesus told His apostles that Jerusalem would be destroyed, but how long would it remain uninhabited by Israel?

It was to be destroyed when it was surrounded by armies Lk 21:20-24.

So the apostles KNEW that this would happen.

The question is when is the 2nd and final resurrection, in relation to this event?

It may be that the apostles thought that it would be just after the destruction in 70 ad.

----

But it could not be revealed to men until After Jerusalem was destroyed.

That is, after the requirements of the angel speaking in Dan. 12:4-7 had been met.

The power of the holy people had to be scattered first, before the scroll of the 7 seals could be opened and told, the 2 witnesses.

----

PlainWord · May 21, 2017

Rockrz said:

The Tribulation was 1,947 years ago. No need to prep for it. The scoffers were in Peter's day.

When the world ends, it will be like the days of Noah. The ones taken are the wicked. You have this so turned inside out and backwards, its hard not to scoff at you but that wouldn't be Christian

.

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