The Rapture

[PlainWord]

continued a-f,

This doesn't mean that Jesus was there, and that it was the 1/2 hour spoken of after the 7th seal.

That is assumed, and not in scripture.

I think I make a good case for it given the timing of the 7th seal. Christ isn't actually shown returning at the 6th seal. His signs are present and the people in Jerusalem know His wrath is coming. Just as in Mt 24, Christ comes after these heavenly signs are seen. So logic would suggest that Christ returns at the 7th seal and that's why it's quiet in heaven for a half hour. We also have the temple filled with light for a half hour turning the night into day. Seems like a good fit.

The events in Rev 8:2-6 all happen well after the dest of Jeru at the 6th seal, and the 1/2 hour of silence.

They happen in heaven so who knows? It says there was thunderings, noises and an earthquake. Josephus records these same events as the temple was burning. See War 6-5.

Whether this really happened or not, cannot be confirmed.

I think that he is only saying what people had told him, many times.

Correct. He spoke to many eye witnesses. Keep in mind, he was with Titus and the Romans at the time outside the battlefield. But, many people who were inside the battle field saw these things and relayed them to him. Why would they make it up? Josephus and Titus felt that it was God's wrath and that Rome was merely an instrument of God to bring about the desolation of Jerusalem.

 

[abcdef]

A-f,



Yes, but a pretty good one.

It is my view that war broke out in heaven shortly after Christ ascended back.

Yes, Rev 12:10, the day of Pentecost, when the kingdom on earth began (church).

Salvation is come. the kingdom of our God, the power of his Christ (resurrection, all power)

Can you imagine Satan being allowed to stay after murdering the Son of God? God is Light, Christ is Light. There is light when either are present.

We have the Holy Spirit within us, but we are not physical lights, not material light, as seen with the eyes.

Why is it quiet in heaven? Because Christ left. That's my opinion.

The first 3 1/2ts, ended at the dest of Jeru. in 70 ad. (Babylon to 70 ad)

The second 3 1/2ts, is 70 ad to 1967.

(The 7 times are the time of the statue in Dan. 2)

But the exact story of the second 3 1/2ts, could not be revealed until after the first 3 1/2ts were finished.

This is shown by the angel and the little scroll in Dan. 12:4-7.

The little scroll could not be opened until the time of the end. (sealed)

The angel says that the time of the end is when the power of the holy people (Israel) is scattered. That would be 70 ad.

So the little scroll that we see opened in Rev. (7 seals) cannot be opened until the first 3 1/2ts are over.

This would show that the dest of Jeru was COMPLETED BEFORE the 7th seal could be opened. It was completed at the 6th seal, the 7th seal shows that it was completed.

But the little scroll wasn't opened at the exact moment that Jeru. was destroyed, there was a period between the dest. and the opening of the scroll, which was given at the time that the Rev. was given to John. (post dest)

This was the time of silence in heaven.

Heaven was silent about the time after the dest of Jeru. and the ToGs, until the Rev was given.

Then the story of the little scroll (2Ws), was revealed when the letter was sent to the 7 churches.

The 6th seal happens just prior to Christ's presence return. The signs here agree with the ones given in Mt 24:29-30.

The 6th seal shows Jesus coming to destroy Jerusalem. When the 6th seal is completed, the dest of Jeru is completed.

Christ actually comes at the 7th seal and His presence is seen inside the temple as a bright light which turns the dark into day. The light lasted a half hour, just as it was quiet for a half hour in heaven.

Somebody said, somebody said, somebody said. They all looked for "signs", Jesus said that it was part of their problem.

"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Well Jerusalem disappeared completely but was rebuilt. I tend to agree that the ToG lasted until 1967.

You're getting really close now.

What happens after Jerusalem is restored to Israel?(end of the mill)

They are surrounded by gentile nations? Like right now?

The timing of the writing of Rev is irrelevant because of this verse:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

I agree and have said so before.

But to some, it makes a difference.

The difference is in the identification of the symbols that are used, which are used to ID the time line.

Assumption? What do you base this on?

Perhaps. I don't have a better theory at this time.

I think I remember that you said, that the 7th trumpet was the coming of Jesus, or the last trumpet, I can't quite remember, are you still thinking on that?

If that were true, what would the 7 trumpets be?

The time between the dest of Jeru. and the coming of Jesus?

 

[tanakh]

Another major problem is that when I look at the notes in the bible, it says that the book of revelation was written AFTER 70AD so certainly thats problematic for someone who says ALL OF IT has been fulfilled? no? Also where is the New Jerusalem promised in Rev 21? Did that come after the destruction of the temple

I mean, there are some things that definately talk about the destruction of the temple in the bible, no doubt, but to say its ALL been fulfilled is kinda strange, I mean, why would the prophets bother writing so extensively about ONE EVENT all over the bible, with many different symbols.

The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem marked the end of the Old Testament age. This is what the Disciples asked Jesus about in Matthew 24 following his comments in Chapter 23. The forty years between Christs resurrection and the destruction was a transition period that marked the setting up of the kingdom age and and to allow the unbelieving to repent. The Temple was the center of the whole of the Old Testament system once it was destroyed the Kingdom of heaven was established and began to grow like a seed planted in the earth and continues to do so. Jesus used many parables to teach about the coming kingdom. Christ is our high priest and King who reigns from Heaven.

Not every one believes that Revelation was written in 95AD. One remarkable feature about the book is that not one word is mentioned about the Temples destruction anywhere. The Jewish War caused the death of over a million Jews and the end of their whole system of worship.

 

[abcdef]

continued a-f,



I think I make a good case for it given the timing of the 7th seal.

Some of his stuff is good and some, somebody told him.

These guys were so superstitious, they looked for signs in goat entrails and such.

Consulted with oracles, and false gods, looking for signs.

Who knows what they made up to gain favor?

Christ isn't actually shown returning at the 6th seal.

The people are shown hiding from His presence, His face.

His signs are present and the people in Jerusalem know His wrath is coming.

Some did, when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies the fled to the wilderness of the gentiles.

Just as in Mt 24, Christ comes after these heavenly signs are seen.

Will you base your beliefs on the historical writings of someone from outside of the Bible?

So logic would suggest that Christ returns at the 7th seal and that's why it's quiet in heaven for a half hour. We also have the temple filled with light for a half hour turning the night into day. Seems like a good fit.

If you were there, you would not go see what made the light?

They happen in heaven so who knows? It says there was thunderings, noises and an earthquake. Josephus records these same events as the temple was burning. See War 6-5.

Possible, who who can say with absolute certainty, that these rumors were the fulfillment of prophecy?

Correct. He spoke to many eye witnesses. Keep in mind, he was with Titus and the Romans at the time outside the battlefield. But, many people who were inside the battle field saw these things and relayed them to him. Why would they make it up? Josephus and Titus felt that it was God's wrath and that Rome was merely an instrument of God to bring about the desolation of Jerusalem.

Everybody told Titus, the gods are on your side. I'm sure that he loved to hear it.

All the god's are on your side. The signs are in your favor. Go and conquer. Then reward me for supporting you with loads of money and spoils.

There was good money in it.

 

[PlainWord]

a-f,

Yes, Rev 12:10, the day of Pentecost, when the kingdom on earth began (church).

Salvation is come. the kingdom of our God, the power of his Christ (resurrection, all power)

AGREED

We have the Holy Spirit within us, but we are not physical lights, not material light, as seen with the eyes.

Right. I was talking about the literal light that was Christ in the temple for 1/2 hour in 70 AD. It was so bright that it lit up the night. We are spiritual lights to a dark world, however.

 

[PlainWord]

a-f,

God used Titus, just like he used Neb. In both cases, both man got too big for their britches and God inflected much suffering on both. Old Neb wandered around insane for what, 7 years? Titus got it worse. As he was leaving Israel by ship to return to Rome the waves picked up and fear gripped him. Titus then recalled that the God of the Jews used water to defeat their enemies like he'd done with Egypt. He then shouted out that God should fight him on land, that he'd squash God like a gnat.

When they got to land, a gnat went into Titus' ear and he could not get it out. The gnat caused much pain and tinging in his ear. Titus learned that the noise of a black smith hammering would cause the gnat to stop so he ordered a black smith to come and pound away for an hour a day to ease his suffering. Eventually the gnat got used to the sound and the relief was gone.

Titus lived in torment for 11 years and when he died, they autopsy-ed his brain. The gnat had grown to the size of a bird.

 

[abcdef]

a-f,

God used Titus, just like he used Neb. In both cases, both man got too big for their britches and God inflected much suffering on both. Old Neb wandered around insane for what, 7 years? Titus got it worse. As he was leaving Israel by ship to return to Rome the waves picked up and fear gripped him. Titus then recalled that the God of the Jews used water to defeat their enemies like he'd done with Egypt. He then shouted out that God should fight him on land, that he'd squash God like a gnat.

When they got to land, a gnat went into Titus' ear and he could not get it out. The gnat caused much pain and tinging in his ear. Titus learned that the noise of a black smith hammering would cause the gnat to stop so he ordered a black smith to come and pound away for an hour a day to ease his suffering. Eventually the gnat got used to the sound and the relief was gone.

Titus lived in torment for 11 years and when he died, they autopsy-ed his brain. The gnat had grown to the size of a bird.

Can a gnat, grow to the size of a bird?

How did the gnat get from the ear canal into the brain?

Gnats only live a matter of weeks, how is it this one lived all those years?

Tooo many problems with that story.

And there is no such thing as aliens, or men in black, flash.

 

[abcdef]

a-f,



AGREED

Rev 12, if the day of Pentecost is vs.7-12,

Then see how the dragon Roman iron beast nation chases Israel into the wilderness of the gentiles.

She is there until the ToGs is over and she returns home to Jerusalem.

The 3 1/2ts of the woman is the second half of the 7 times. 70 ad to 1967.

Right. I was talking about the literal light that was Christ in the temple for 1/2 hour in 70 AD. It was so bright that it lit up the night. We are spiritual lights to a dark world, however.

You would think that people would have run inside to see if it was on fire, or to see what the light was.

Wouldn't you? Wouldn't the people if they thought it was on fire, to save it?

But no, that's OK, the fire went out by itself. Yes/No?

 

[PlainWord]

Can a gnat, grow to the size of a bird?

How did the gnat get from the ear canal into the brain?

Gnats only live a matter of weeks, how is it this one lived all those years?

Tooo many problems with that story.

And there is no such thing as aliens, or men in black, flash.

LOL. It was a special gnat. Here's a link to the story.

Titus's Death - Tisha B'Av and the 3 Weeks

 

[abcdef]

So, what happens after Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, and the ToGs end?

--

If the 7th trumpet, is the return of Jesus, to take possession of the kingdom Rev 11:15 (Dan. 2:35),

Then what happens just before the 7th trumpet? The 6th trumpet, that brings armies from across the Euphrates.

They are headed for Jerusalem, to destroy Israel.

(200 mill includes supporting troops/nations, all who actively support the genocide of Israel)

--

In Rev 20:7-9, shows that Jerusalem is surrounded by the gentile nations.

Jerusalem must be restored at that time.

Then the 2nd resurrection and the fire from heaven. (1st resur. Jesus, 2nd resur. at His coming, then the end)

---

The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem. Just before the 7th trumpet. (3 1/2 days)

The 2 witnesses are Israel outside of Jerusalem for the ToGs. The second 3 1/2ts. 70 ad-1967.

Just like the woman of Rev 12, they are both showing the same time period of 70 ad to 1967.

---

Now, if you will think about this,

The fire from heaven, is the stone of Dan. 2 striking the statue of the nations, just before the judgement and the new earth. (filled the earth)

It is literally, a stone cut from a mountain, without human hands.

By the hand of God, perhaps billions of years ago, a stone was created by a collision in space.

The stone was sent through space in a direction so that it will strike the planet, and destroy it, exactly 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and Magog.

This is shown especially in the 7th vial.

Why does Jesus destroy this planet?

Israel is destroyed, there will never be another Israel (natural branches) in Jerusalem, on this planet ever again, only in heaven.

The "genetic natural branches", will cease to be a race, and eventually be absorbed into the gentile nations.

That is why this planet ends, because Israel (natural branches) is no more.

 

[PlainWord]

LOL. It was a special gnat. Here's a link to the story.

Titus's Death - Tisha B'Av and the 3 Weeks

If God can cause a gnat to fly into Titus' ear, can't He make the gnat live a long time and grow really big? Seems like a small miracle to me compared to parting of the Red Sea, etc.

 

[VCO]

Show me the scripture that says that. {the GAP between the 69th Week and the 70th Week of Daniel}

The wedding cannot take place until the kingdom is delivered up to the Father. {The Wedding traditionally always takes place in the Father's House, the Kingdom begins in our hearts when we are BORN AGAIN. You just describe perfectly what the Rapture of the Bride is all about}

The 69th week began when Jesus arrived and started His ministry to Israel. {Read it again, the 69th ends shortly after crucifixion, it literally says so.}

I'm not sure if you realize this, but every time that you say that the Antichrist is future, you are hiding the fact that Rome and Caesar/Vatican are the beast and Antichrist. {Charismatic wishful thinking, or else they will have to hug a Catholic and appologize.}

Too much Twilight Zone theology to deal with it all in one post.

Like I said before, the word ROME and the word Vatican, were not used in those prophecies by GOD, they were added by the opinions of men, and HIGHLY propetuated by Charismatics and Pentecostals, who LOVE TO HATE the Catholics, so they spun that YARN out of their Imaginations, probably because they desperately needed to justify their hatred.

Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV)
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]. . .[/SUP] he that soweth discord among brethren.

1 John 4:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.


Evidence for the Gap between the 69th Week of Years and the 70th Week of years in Daniel Chapter 9, does not lie in the book of Daniel, but rather was revealed to the Church,
in Eph. 3:4-13.

9:24-26 Seventy weeks... from... until. These are weeks of years, whereas weeks of days are described in a different way (10:2, 3). The time spans from Artaxerxes’s decree to rebuild Jerusalem, c. 445 b.c. (Neh. 2:1-8), to the Messiah’s kingdom. This panorama includes: (1) seven weeks or forty-nine years, possibly closing Nehemiah’s career in the rebuilding of the “street and wall,” as well as the end of the ministry of Malachi and the close of the OT; (2) sixty-two weeks or 434 more years for a total of 483 years to the First Advent of Messiah. This was fulfilled at the triumphal entry on 9 Nisan, a.d. 30 (see notes on Matt. 21:1-9). The Messiah will be “cut off,” (a common reference to death); and (3) the final seven years or seventieth week of the time of Antichrist (cf. v. 27). Roman people, from whom the Antichrist will come, will “destroy the city” of Jerusalem and its temple in a.d. 70.

Key Word​

Confess: 9:4—lit. “to throw” or “to cast off.” This Hebrew verb conveys the act of “casting off” sin and acknowledging rebellion against God’s commandments (Neh. 1:6, 9:2; Ps. 32:3; Prov. 28:13). Confession also conveys thanksgiving for God’s greatness (1 Kin. 8:33, 35). Confession of sin is thanksgiving because it recognizes the grace and goodness of God’s forgiveness (2 Chr. 30:22).
9:24. This highly complex and amazingly accurate prophecy answers Daniel’s prayer, not with reference to near history, but by referencing the far future of Israel at the end of the age. God promises two sets of three accomplishments each. First, those related to sin are: (1) finish the transgression, i.e., restrain sin and Israel’s in particular during its long trend of apostasy, as in verse 11; (2) make an end of sins, i.e., to judge sin with finality (cf. Heb. 9:26); and (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, signifies to furnish the actual basis of covering sin by full atonement, the blood of the crucified Messiah who is “cut off” (v. 26), which affects the first two realities (cf. the fountain, Zech. 13:1).
Second, those accomplishments related to righteousness are: (1) bring in... righteousness, the eternal righteousness of Daniel’s people in their great change from centuries of apostasy; (2) seal up vision, i.e., no more revelation is needed and God will bring these anticipations to completion by their fulfillment in Israel’s blessing as a nation; and (3) anoint the Most Holy, consecrate the Holy Place in a future temple that will be the center of worship in the millennial kingdom (cf. Ezek. 40-48). Clearly, this must be understood as sweeping to the end of Gentile power and the time of Antichrist right before Christ’s return. Summing up, the first three are fulfilled in principle at Christ’s First Coming, in full at His return. The last three complete the plan at His Second Advent.
9:27 Then. This is surely the end of the age, the Second Advent judgment, because the bringing in of righteousness did not occur seven years after the death of the Messiah, nor did the destruction of Jerusalem fit the seven-year period (occurring thirty-seven years later). This is the future seven-year period which ends with sin’s final judgment and Christ’s reign of righteousness; i.e., the return of Christ and the establishment of His rule. These seven years constitute the seventieth week of Daniel. he shall confirm. He is the last-mentioned prince (v. 26), leader of the Roman sphere (cf. chs. 2; 7), the Antichrist who comes in the latter days. The time is in the future Tribulation period of “one week,” i.e., the final seven years of verse 24. He confirms (lit., causes to prevail) a seven-year covenant, his own pact with Israel, that will actually turn out to be for a shorter time. The leader in this covenant is the “little horn” of 7:7, 8, 20, 21, 24-26, and the evil leader found in NT prophecy (Mark 13:14; 2 Thess. 2:3-10; Rev. 13:1-10). That he is in the future, even after Christ’s First Advent, is shown by: (1) Matthew 24:15; (2) the time references that match (7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5); and (3) the end extending to the Second Advent, matching the duration elsewhere mentioned in Daniel (2:35, 45; 7:15ff.; 12:1-3) and Revelation 11:2; 12:14; 13:5. middle of the week. This is the halfway point of the seventieth week of years, i.e., seven years leading to Christ’s Second Coming. The Antichrist will break his covenant with Israel (v. 27a), which has resumed its ancient sacrificial system. Three and one-half years of Tribulation remain, agreeing with the time in other Scriptures (7:25; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5, called “Great Tribulation,” cf. Matt. 24:21) as a period when God’s wrath intensifies. abominations... one who makes desolate. The Antichrist will cause abomination against Jewish religion. This violation will desolate or ruin what Jews regard as sacred, namely their holy temple and the honoring of God’s presence there (cf. 1 Kin. 9:3; 2 Thess. 2:4). Jesus refers directly to this text in His Olivet discourse (Matt. 24:15). See note on 11:31. the consummation. God permits this tribulation during the Antichrist’s persecutions and then ultimately triumphs by judging the sin and sinners in Israel (12:7) and in the world (cf. Jer. 25:31). This includes the Antichrist (11:45; Rev. 19:20), and all who deserve judgment (9:24; Matt. 13:41-43).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

"Seventy weeks" does not mean weeks of seven days any more than it means weeks of seven years or seven other periods of time. The Hebrew word for "seven" is shabua, meaning "a unit of measure." . . . So here, Seventy Weeks means seventy sevens. It could be seventy sevens of anything. It could be units of days or months or years. In the context of this verse it is plain that Daniel has been reading in Jeremiah about years, seventy years. Jeremiah had been preaching and writing that the captivity would be for seventy years. The seventy years of captivity were the specific penalty for violating seventy sabbatic years. That would be seventy sevens, a total of 490 years. In those 490 years, Israel had violated exactly seventy sabbatic years; so they would go into captivity for seventy years. "To fulfil the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years" (2Chron. 36:21).

1 week = 7 years 70 weeks = 490 years 70 weeks divided into 3 periods: 7 weeks -- 62 weeks -- 1 week.

. . .

. . .

The Seventy Weeks concern "thy people," meaning the people of Daniel. That would be Israel. And they concern "the holy city," which can be none other than Jerusalem. Six things are to be accomplished in those Seventy Weeks or 490 years. We will see as we progress in our study that sixty-nine of those "weeks" have already passed, and one "week" is yet to be fulfilled.
Here are the six things to be accomplished:
1. "To finish the transgression." This refers to the transgression of Israel. The cross provided the redemption for sin -- for the sin of the nation, but not all accepted it. Today the word has gone out to the ends of the earth that there is a redemption for mankind. But in that last "week" we are told that God says, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications..." (Zech. 12:10). And in Zechariah 13:1: "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." That has not been opened yet. All you have to do is to look at the land of Israel and you will know this has not been fulfilled.
2. "To make an end of sins." The national sins of Israel will come to an end at the second coming of Christ. They are just like any other people or any other nation. They are sinners as individuals and as a nation. They have made many mistakes as a nation (so have we), but God will make an end to that.
3. "To make reconciliation for iniquity." During this period of Seventy Weeks, God has provided a redemption through the death and resurrection of Christ. This, of course, is for Jew and Gentile alike.
4. "And to bring in everlasting righteousness" refers to the return of Christ at the end of the 490 years to establish the Kingdom.
5. "To seal up the vision and prophecy" means that all will be fulfilled, which will vindicate this prophecy as well as all other prophecies in Scripture.
6. "To anoint the most Holy" has reference to the anointing of the holy of holies in the millennial temple about which Ezekiel spoke (Ezek. 41 -- Ezek. 46).
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate [Dan. 9:25-27].

The starting point for this period of 490 years is essential to the correct understanding of the prophecy. Since this period is projected into the Times of the Gentiles, it must fit into secular history and originate from some date connected with the Times of the Gentiles. Of course there have been many suggestions for a starting point: the decree of Cyrus (see Ezra 1:1-4); the decree of Darius (see Ezra 6:1-12); the decree of Artaxerxes -- at the seventh year of his reign (Ezra 7:11-26); but I feel that the decree of Artaxerxes in the twentieth year of his reign (Neh. 2:1-8) meets the requirements of verse 25. The commandment to rebuild the city of Jerusalem was issued in the month Nisan 445 B.C. That, then, will be our starting point.
The first seven weeks of forty-nine years bring us to 397 B.C. and to Malachi and the end of the Old Testament. These were "troublous times," as witnessed by both Nehemiah and Malachi.
Sixty-two weeks, or 434 years, bring us to the Messiah. Sir Robert Anderson in his book, The Coming Prince, has worked out the time schedule. From the first of the month Nisan to the tenth of Nisan (April 6) A.D. 32, is 173,880 days. Dividing them according to the Jewish year of 360 days, he arrives at 483 years (69 sevens). On this day Jesus rode into Jerusalem, offering Himself for the first time, publicly and officially, as the Messiah.
After the 69 weeks, or 483 years, there is a time break. Between the sixty-ninth and Seventieth Week two events of utmost importance are to take place:
1. Messiah will be cut off. This was the crucifixion of Christ, the great mystery and truth of the gospel: "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day" (Matt. 16:21). "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:15).
2. Destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in A.D. 70, when Titus the Roman was the instrument.
The final "week" (the seventieth), a period of seven years, is projected into the future and does not follow chronologically the other sixty-nine. The time gap between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks is the age of grace -- unknown to the prophets (Eph. 3:1-12; 1Pet. 1:10-12). The Seventieth Week is eschatological; it is the final period and is yet unfulfilled.
"The prince" is a Roman; he is the "little horn" of Daniel 7; he is "the beast" of Revelation 13. After the church is removed from the earth, he will make a covenant with Israel. Israel will accept him as her Messiah, but in the midst of the "week" he will break his covenant by placing an image in the temple (Rev. 13). This is the abomination of desolation. What Israel thought to be the Millennium will turn out to be the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-26). Only the coming of Christ can end this frightful period (Matt. 24:27-31).
My friend, you and I are living in the age of grace, and the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Great Tribulation, as the Lord Jesus called it, is yet to take place.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If the 7th trumpet, is the return of Jesus, to take possession of the kingdom Rev 11:15 (Dan. 2:35)

Here is something for you to consider abcdef: how can Jesus return at the 7th trumpet, when at the pouring out of the 6th bowl, which takes place well after the 7th trumpet He interjects that he has not yet returned:

====================================

"The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

=====================================

Jesus' insertion above would demonstrate that at the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment, Jesus has not yet returned, yet you have Him returning at the 7th trumpet, which seven events prior to when the 6th bowl takes place?

They are headed for Jerusalem, to destroy Israel.

(200 mill includes supporting troops/nations, all who actively support the genocide of Israel)

Why do you believe that the 200 million are men? The 6th bowl judgment where a third of mankind is killed, is performed by those four angels and their army. It is angels killing a third of mankind, not mankind killing mankind.

The reason that trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are called "woes" is because each of them are demonic in nature.

5th Trumpet = Demonic beings resembling locusts come out of the Abyss and torment the inhabitants

6th Trumpet = Four angels and their army of 200 million demonic beings kill a third of mankind

7th Trumpet = Satan and his angels cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth

The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem. Just before the 7th trumpet. (3 1/2 days)

How did you interpret 1260 days and turn it into 3 1/2 days? The 1260 days which is the first 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, will be the time when the two witnesses prophesy, i.e. from the beginning of the seven years, to the middle. Their bodies lie will lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days.

Now, if you will think about this,

The fire from heaven, is the stone of Dan. 2 striking the statue of the nations, just before the judgement and the new earth. (filled the earth). It is literally, a stone cut from a mountain, without human hands.

By the hand of God, perhaps billions of years ago, a stone was created by a collision in space.

The stone was sent through space in a direction so that it will strike the planet, and destroy it, exactly 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and Magog.

The Rock cut out of the mountain without human hands, is figurative representing Jesus. He's the Rock that falls on the feet of the statue causing it to be smashed to pieces and that via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Jesus is that Rock that strikes the feet of the statue becoming a huge mountain that fills the whole earth, which is figurative representing his millennial kingdom. It has nothing to do with an asteroid or any other object hitting the earth.

 

[abcdef]

Too much Twilight Zone theology to deal with it all in one post.

Like I said before, the word ROME and the word Vatican, were not used in those prophecies by GOD, they were added by the opinions of men, and HIGHLY propetuated by Charismatics and Pentecostals, who LOVE TO HATE the Catholics, so they spun that YARN out of their Imaginations, probably because they desperately needed to justify their hatred.

The fact that Rome was the iron beast nation was shown at the dest of Jerusalem.

Even Martin Luther wrote that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, this isn't something new.

If they had mentioned Rome by name as the enemy, they would have been killed.

Do you deny that the iron legs/toes are Rome?

YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN UNLESS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THE BISHOP OF ROME AS HEAD OF THE CHURCH AND AS THE holy father!!!

Do you agree? 500 years ago you would be killed if you didn't agree, as many were.

This has been going on for 2000 years.

Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV)
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]. . .[/SUP] he that soweth discord among brethren.

1 John 4:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Go to a Catholic website and say that you won't call the Bishop of Rome the holy father.

Or say that the RCC isn't the only true Church/Israel, say that (enter your denom/church group here), are Christians too.

They will tell you that you're not. You're HARLOTS!

Say a few prayers to Mary, and bow down before her statue. Hail Mary Queen of Heaven!

Who do you think that they are? Do you even really see them for who they are?

Members of the Beast nation/kingdom of darkness?

I pray that everyone gets to heaven, but we must also fight false teachings that lead to the loss of the soul.

It seems that you take so lightly the 2000 years of the murder of Israel by Rome and it's Vatican image.

Evidence for the Gap between the 69th Week of Years and the 70th Week of years in Daniel Chapter 9, does not lie in the book of Daniel, but rather was revealed to the Church,
in Eph. 3:4-13.

There is no gap.

Jesus began His ministry at the end of the 69th week.

He confirmed the covenant, but was cut off in the middle of the week, 69 1/2 weeks, 3 1/2 years.

Then the covenant ended when the gentiles came in, ending the covenant with the natural branches and the 70 weeks.

 

[VCO]

The fact that Rome was the iron beast nation was shown at the dest of Jerusalem.

Even Martin Luther wrote that the Bishop of Rome was the Antichrist, this isn't something new.

If they had mentioned Rome by name as the enemy, they would have been killed.

Do you deny that the iron legs/toes are Rome?

YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN UNLESS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THE BISHOP OF ROME AS HEAD OF THE CHURCH AND AS THE holy father!!!

Do you agree? 500 years ago you would be killed if you didn't agree, as many were.

This has been going on for 2000 years.





Go to a Catholic website and say that you won't call the Bishop of Rome the holy father.

Or say that the RCC isn't the only true Church/Israel, say that (enter your denom/church group here), are Christians too.

They will tell you that you're not. You're HARLOTS!

Say a few prayers to Mary, and bow down before her statue. Hail Mary Queen of Heaven!

Who do you think that they are? Do you even really see them for who they are?

Members of the Beast nation/kingdom of darkness?

I pray that everyone gets to heaven, but we must also fight false teachings that lead to the loss of the soul.

It seems that you take so lightly the 2000 years of the murder of Israel by Rome and it's Vatican image.






There is no gap.

Jesus began His ministry at the end of the 69th week.

He confirmed the covenant, but was cut off in the middle of the week, 69 1/2 weeks, 3 1/2 years.

Then the covenant ended when the gentiles came in, ending the covenant with the natural branches and the 70 weeks.

One more Time, you have bought just about every mis-interpretation of Prophecy Scriptures that I have ever heard of. How on earth did you get so mixed up, swallowing so many FALSE TEACHINGS, hook, line, and sinker.

FIRST OF ALL, the CHURCH IS NOT Spiritual ISRAEL, never has been, and NEVER WILL BE. ISRAEL IS GOD's CHOSEN People, and We are HIS chose sons; a totally different relationship; EXCEPT:

John 10:16 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold;
I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice.
The other sheep are those of the GAP.
And when they are all in their FOLD.
Then there will be one flock, one shepherd. Then at the RAPTURE the two folds, become one FLOCK.

There as many FALSE TEACHERS on the Protestant side of the fence, and there are Priests who are False Teachers, maybe there are more Protestant false teachers. The Seven Churche are real Churches that Christ recognized. AND they are representitive of the types of Chruches that can be found throughout the Church Age. CHRIST RECOGNIZED all seven, WHO ARE YOU TO RECOGNIZE LESS. The Catholic Church certainly is one the SEVEN CHURCHES RECOGNIZED BY CHRIST AS ONE OF HIS.

 

[tanakh]

LOL. It was a special gnat. Here's a link to the story.

Titus's Death - Tisha B'Av and the 3 Weeks

Reminds me of a song called '' May the Bird of Paradise fly up your nose''

 

[tanakh]

Too much Twilight Zone theology to deal with it all in one post.

Like I said before, the word ROME and the word Vatican, were not used in those prophecies by GOD, they were added by the opinions of men, and HIGHLY propetuated by Charismatics and Pentecostals, who LOVE TO HATE the Catholics, so they spun that YARN out of their Imaginations, probably because they desperately needed to justify their hatred.

Proverbs 6:16-19 (KJV)
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
[SUP]. . .[/SUP] he that soweth discord among brethren.

1 John 4:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.


Evidence for the Gap between the 69th Week of Years and the 70th Week of years in Daniel Chapter 9, does not lie in the book of Daniel, but rather was revealed to the Church,
in Eph. 3:4-13.

Eph 3: 4-13 deals with the Mystery of Jew and Gentile becoming one through the shed blood of Christ. It continues from the previous chapter. There is no mention of the 2000 year plus gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week. Your post is the first time I have ever seen this reference connected to it. If it was connected I am sure all the Pre trib/Dispensationalist Pundits would have seized upon it years ago.

 

[PlainWord]

QUOTE=tanakh;3100061]The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem marked the end of the Old Testament age. This is what the Disciples asked Jesus about in Matthew 24 following his comments in Chapter 23. The forty years between Christs resurrection and the destruction was a transition period that marked the setting up of the kingdom age and and to allow the unbelieving to repent. The Temple was the center of the whole of the Old Testament system once it was destroyed the Kingdom of heaven was established and began to grow like a seed planted in the earth and continues to do so. Jesus used many parables to teach about the coming kingdom. Christ is our high priest and King who reigns from Heaven.

Not every one believes that Revelation was written in 95AD. One remarkable feature about the book is that not one word is mentioned about the Temples destruction anywhere. The Jewish War caused the death of over a million Jews and the end of their whole system of worship.[/QUOTE]

Very well put. I would add that the destruction of the temple and desolation of Jer along with the scattering of the people for 1900 years was a monumental event that too many in the church disregard or discount the significance. As important as the beginning of their nation with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the end was equally significant. Both events were written about extensively.

The dest of Jer was foretold in Dan 9:

"And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined...Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

The city was destroyed by fire (consumed). The unbelieving Jews were the desolate. This happened because of the wickedness of that generation. They were given 490 years to do certain things. Among them were: "To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity" - they did neither. In Luke 19, Jesus laments for Jerusalem telling His disciples that the entire city would be destroyed because, "They did not know the time of their visitation (of their Messiah)." They should have known the time because Daniel told them and they should have been able to nail it down.

They were expecting a Messiah to come to rescue them from the Roman oppressors because they misunderstood the meaning of salvation. They didn't listen to Isaiah and instead killed him. In short, they had it coming and it was the Great Tribulation that so many are still thinking is future.

 

[PlainWord]

a-f,

So, what happens after Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem, and the ToGs end?

Here's my take...

What happens is an Islamic force lead by Russia will invade and surround Jerusalem once again. God divinely intervenes as told in Ez 38-39 and Rev 20.

If the 7th trumpet, is the return of Jesus, to take possession of the kingdom Rev 11:15 (Dan. 2:35),

Then what happens just before the 7th trumpet? The 6th trumpet, that brings armies from across the Euphrates.

They are headed for Jerusalem, to destroy Israel.

(200 mill includes supporting troops/nations, all who actively support the genocide of Israel)

I'm not sure either of us understands the meaning of the 6th trumpet. I think you may be wrong that this is an evil army of 200 mil coming to destroy Israel. This army kills 1/3 of mankind. There isn't that many people in Israel. I've always seen this army as a divine army. They kill with fire, smoke and brimstone which are well-known "divine judgment" methods of destruction. There were 4 angels being held back. Where they good or bad angels? Notice also that the rest of mankind (not killed) did not repent. This seems to point to a divine judgment event.

In Rev 20:7-9, shows that Jerusalem is surrounded by the gentile nations.

Jerusalem must be restored at that time.

Then the 2nd resurrection and the fire from heaven. (1st resur. Jesus, 2nd resur. at His coming, then the end)

Agreed. 100%.

The 2 witnesses are killed in Jerusalem. Just before the 7th trumpet. (3 1/2 days)

The 2 witnesses are Israel outside of Jerusalem for the ToGs. The second 3 1/2ts. 70 ad-1967.

Just like the woman of Rev 12, they are both showing the same time period of 70 ad to 1967.

Not sure I agree with this. I don't see the 2 witnesses as 2 literal men killed in Jerusalem. No man I know of breaths out fire to kill their enemies unless they are supernatural. If they are, then they can't be killed. Their "dead bodies" lie in the "great city" spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.

Rev 11 is loaded with symbolism. The inspiration here seems to come from Jer 5:14 and Zec 4. The reference to Sodom is a reference to wickedness (See Isa 3:9, Jer 23:14). It's a Satan inspired spiritual condition of man. Today I would relate it to "Progressive Liberalism." "Egypt" conjures up a different spiritual image to me, one of idol (or false) worship and slavery, and of greed or desire for wealth. Islam, perhaps?

The "witnesses" are obviously good, the spirits that kill them are bad. I see the two witnesses as the Great Multitude in Heaven, from Rev 7. Rev 7 says they came from: "...all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues." In Rev 11 we see that those who celebrate their death are: "...from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations." Therefore the unsaved of the earth will kill the saved of the earth in huge numbers before the 7th trumpet. In other words, the persecution of the church globally worsens and we are seeing that now.

Now, if you will think about this,

The fire from heaven, is the stone of Dan. 2 striking the statue of the nations, just before the judgement and the new earth. (filled the earth)

It is literally, a stone cut from a mountain, without human hands.

By the hand of God, perhaps billions of years ago, a stone was created by a collision in space.

The stone was sent through space in a direction so that it will strike the planet, and destroy it, exactly 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and Magog.

This is shown especially in the 7th vial.

Why does Jesus destroy this planet?

I don't know. The "stone" of Dan 2 I've always taken to be Christ and by extension, the Church. Christianity overcomes the pagan religions supported by the kingdoms of this earth. Christianity fills the earth and indeed the largest faith on earth today is Christianity. Dan 2 is like the mustard seed parable, IMHO.

Israel is destroyed, there will never be another Israel (natural branches) in Jerusalem, on this planet ever again, only in heaven.

The "genetic natural branches", will cease to be a race, and eventually be absorbed into the gentile nations.

That is why this planet ends, because Israel (natural branches) is no more.

I don't know about this...

 

[serpentdove]

I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS

I'm pre-trib. Tomorrow (roughly) starts the tail drag by the dragon in the sky which John wrote about in Re 12.