The Rapture

VCO · May 17, 2017

Surprise, you and me and almost everyone else posting here, are Gentile Believers. THUS THE TIMES of the GENTILES still going, and when we are called out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb, the Seventieth Week of Daniel begins. Then the Anti-Christ Gets all the enemies of ISRAEL, to sign a Seven Year Peace Treaty with Israel, giving them permission to re-build the Temple; then and ONLY then, for the first 3.5 years do the Gentiles stop trampling Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:24-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city— to bring the rebellion to an end, to put a stop to sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat, but in difficult times.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war;desolations{PLURAL} are decreed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Do you honestly think the Gentile Attacks on Jerusalem are NOT Gentiles Trampling on Jerusalem and the fulfillment of multiple desolations?

A gentile Terrorist ATTACK in Jerusalem.

A gentile Terrorist ATTACK in Jerusalem.

Tell me how much Jewish blood do you have to see in Jerusalem, before you admit, the Gentiles are still Trampling on Jerusalem?

The Time of the Gentiles is between the 69th Week and the 70th.

As for the 10 nation confederacy, you forget that 10 can symbolize many, just like 1000 can symbolize a mulitude. However, I do lean towards a literal 10, three of the horns will altimately be torn up by their roots, ceasing to exist because they choose to merge with other nations, most likely to have more voting power, I suspect. Leaving 7 in the Confederacy's final form. Why do I still think it is the E.U. which has more than 10. Primarily because once a Dictator takes over, demanding the rest submit to him. Several most certainly will leave. England has already left, many in France would like their country to Leave the EU too.

Bladerunner · May 17, 2017

VCO said:

VCO---What enemies..... Israel will have none by this time. The Psalm 83 war will remove all enemies surrounding Israel and the Gog/Magog war will remove the rest of them. Of course, Jordan is spared yet is annex by Israel.

The covenant is with "Dead and Hell". Ring any bells????? more than likely so. If you will look to Isaiah 28, 14-18.. you will find the covenant and the reason why they want to rebuild the temple. You will find reference to this in Daniel 9:27

The only enemies is the antichrist and his followers and the Harlot (RCC) who is killing all non-believers in the world religion at least until the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The it is the antichrist's time at converting all those in the world religion to believe in Him which is why 'he' stands in the Holy of Hollies and declares himself GO.

The trodding of Jerusalem underfoot is by the Scourge (Isaiah 28:15) of the antichrist and the Harlot.

I know we probably differ on this but that is ok. I personally will see it unfolding from Heaven

Have a great tomorrow..

Blade

abcdef · May 17, 2017

VCO said:

Show me the scripture that says that.

The wedding cannot take place until the kingdom is delivered up to the Father.

And that does not happen until after death is destroyed 1 Cor 15:23-28.

The 69th week began when Jesus arrived and started His ministry to Israel.

3 1/2 years, the Messiah was cut off.

3 1/3 years later the gentiles were allowed into the kingdom, ending the 70 weeks.

The covenant is between God and Israel, it ends when the natural branches are cut off.

Show me the scripture that says that the ToGs end at the beginning of the first 3 1/2 years.

The Messiah comes at the beginning of the 69th week V 25

Attacks on Jerusalem, are not military control over Jerusalem.

No, it is not the same thing.

A gentile Terrorist ATTACK in Jerusalem.

A gentile Terrorist ATTACK in Jerusalem.

Tell me how much Jewish blood do you have to see in Jerusalem, before you admit, the Gentiles are still Trampling on Jerusalem?

Show me the scripture that shows this.

I'm agreeing with you on this

Like the mill is not a literal 1000 yrs?

The symbolism is that the small horn ends up with a new kingdom of it's own. 7 complete, the little horn rules.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but every time that you say that the Antichrist is future, you are hiding the fact that Rome and Caesar/Vatican are the beast and Antichrist.

Did you read the sermons, that you told me to read?

Didn't you see what he said about Rome and the Vatican?

Don't expect Rome to have the power against Israel like it once had, the Vatican is only the image of the Roman Empire now.

VCO · May 18, 2017

Bladerunner said:

I got news for you Gog and Magog, are enemies.

Ezekiel 38:3-10 (GW)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Tell him, ‘This is what the Almighty LORD says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I will turn you around and put hooks in your jaws. I will lead you out with all your military forces, with horses and riders. Your soldiers will be fully armed. They will carry large and small shields and be able to use swords.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Persia, Sudan, and Put will be with you. They, too, will have shields and helmets.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Gomer will come with all its troops and with the nation of Togarmah from the far north. There will be many armies with you.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] “‘Be prepared! Be prepared, you and all the soldiers assembled around you. You will be their leader.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] After a long time you will be called to service. In the years to come, you will attack a land that has been rebuilt after a war. Its people have been gathered from many nations and brought to the mountains of Israel, mountains that have been ruined for a long time. These people were brought there from the nations, and all of them live there safely.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] You will attack like a storm and cover the land like a cloud. Your troops and the many armies will be with you.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “‘This is what the Almighty LORD says: At that time ideas will enter your head, and you will make wicked plans.
Revelation 9:16-19 (NCV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] I heard how many troops on horses were in their army—two hundred million.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] The horses and their riders I saw in the vision looked like this: They had breastplates that were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow like sulfur. The heads of the horses looked like heads of lions, with fire, smoke, and sulfur coming out of their mouths.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A third of all the people on earth were killed by these three terrible disasters coming out of the horses’ mouths: the fire, the smoke, and the sulfur.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] The horses’ power was in their mouths and in their tails; their tails were like snakes with heads, and with them they hurt people.

ONLY ONE ARMY IN THE WORLD HAS EVER HAD THAT MANY ARMED COMBATANTS IN THE ARMY, and that is modern day China.

Horses may be:
Chinese ARMORED VEHICLES

God named him Ishmael. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Hence the descendants of Ishmael, (Muslims) will always be enemies of Israel.

VCO · May 18, 2017

abcdef said:

I only gave you Dr. MacArthur's sermons Daniel chapter 2. You will need to Listen to ALL of his sermons on DANIEL, EZEKIAL, and REVELATION. I have listened all of them 4 times. As for your thinking Antichrist was in the past; have you never heard of picture prophesies of future events??? THERE are many antichrists who lived and were pictures of what the ultimate Antichrist will be like; even Alexandar the Great, Napleon, and Adolf Hitler were picture prophecies, giving us a glimpse of what the future, End Times Antichrist will be like. The difference is those are only shadows, as the real End Times ANTICHRIST will be FAR, FAR, MORE EVIL, and FAR, FAR, more blood thirsty than any before him. He will mak Nero look tame. Rome and the Vatican, have absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ANTICHRIST, that is purely a figment of Pentecostal and Charismatic IMMAGINATIONS. THE ULTIMATE ANTICHRIST is the one WHO WILL STORM INTO THE THIRD TEMPLE AND PUT HIS THRONE IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES, demanding to be worshipped, as GOD. And literally everyone that refuses will be beheaded. HE will behead every single true believer during the Great Tribulation.

1 John 2:18 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

I am falling asleep, so I will look up some of the verses you requested tomorrow.

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

Bladerunner said:

I beg to differ. Use the Bible to interpret itself. The A of D is not identified in Mt 24 but it is in Lk 21.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...”

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

What caused the desolation of Jerusalem? Roman solders in the temple is an "abomination" as any foreigner would be.

Ezekiel 44:7&9

When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it—My house—and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. ..Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.

A foreign army in the Temple of God is an ABOMINATION. This Abomination caused the desolation of Jerusalem. It happened in 70 AD. It says so in the above.

There is no passage that discusses an "AntiChrist" causing the desolation of Jerusalem. I assume you are referencing 2 Thes 2? In that passage the term "antichrist" is not found. Instead we see the "man of sin" or "lawless one" who is said to come first, before the presence of Christ. It says he deceives people and causes their death. It says he "sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." Nowhere does it say this lawless one causes the desolation of Jerusalem. Again it says he deceives people and causes them to perish. Please pay attention to the text and not what you were taught.

I believe Josephus discusses this lawless one, including his deception and the fate of those who followed him to the temple. The sequence Josephus gives and the behavior of this lawless one can be found in "War of the Jews" 6-5-2.

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

VCO said:

VCO, buddy!! Would you please look at the passage again?

1 John 2:18 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

John is saying that they were in the LAST HOUR. He isn't talking about an event thousands of years later. The "presence of Christ" returned precisely when the Temple was set ablaze in 70 AD. His voice was heard and His army was seen in the clouds above the city. This was recorded by Josephus.

As for the "antichrist" which I prefer to call, "the man of sin" or "the lawless one" or the "son of perdition" as Paul calls him, too much of a deal is made of this person. He deceived and led thousands to their death by his unrighteous deception. Nowhere are we told he caused the desolation of Jerusalem. The Roman solders caused the desolation of Jerusalem (Lk 21:20).

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

Compare 2 Thes 2 with the account of Josephus. I will truncate so that we can clearly see the similarities:

2 Thes 2:

Now, brethren, concerning the (presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you... 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God...[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. [SUP]9 [/SUP]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Key concepts: Deception, Temple, Lawless One – showing himself to be God, signs, many perish because of deception. Lord destroys (lawless one) with Brightness.

Now look at Josephus' account. It is very similar to Paul's.

Josephus "War" 6-5

The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined anything about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life. A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour…So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

…before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Key concepts: Deception, Temple, False Prophet, Belied God, 6,000 die because of deception, bright light, divine presence (of Christ)

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

I should have added this:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [SUP]12 [/SUP]that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Josephus records the strong delusion also:

but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them.

Issachar92 · May 18, 2017

PlainWord said:

I got a question, where was the presence of Christ before Ad 70? i thought that when the Holy Spirit came at pentecost that Jesus said HE WOULD NEVER LEAVE US, and be with us forever.

So this doesnt fly, what in the world is this? "The presence of Christ returned when the temple was destroyed"

Issachar92 · May 18, 2017

Another major problem is that when I look at the notes in the bible, it says that the book of revelation was written AFTER 70AD so certainly thats problematic for someone who says ALL OF IT has been fulfilled? no? Also where is the New Jerusalem promised in Rev 21? Did that come after the destruction of the temple

I mean, there are some things that definately talk about the destruction of the temple in the bible, no doubt, but to say its ALL been fulfilled is kinda strange, I mean, why would the prophets bother writing so extensively about ONE EVENT all over the bible, with many different symbols.

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.

You see, there was silence in heaven for a half hour because the presence of Christ had left and returned to the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD as we see here. The bright light in the temple was Christ exacting His revenge.

and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour…So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.

We have everything in the below found in the opening of the 7th seal. The Temple was on fire, we have an earthquake. We have loud noises and thunderings of a great multitude.

…before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

Issachar92 said:

Christ sent His helper, the HS. Christ ascended back to Heaven but his spirit was sent to be with them, so He never left. Christ returned in 70 AD and His presence was felt.

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

Issachar92 said:

There is much debate about when Revelation was written. I am not one who thinks everything in Rev has been fulfilled. I agree Rev 21 is future. Christ is coming back at the end of this age, the Messianic or Church Age that we are in now. Christ came back to end the Mosaic Age and He passed judgment then just as He will judge the world at the end of our age. Then we enter the eternal state.

Issachar92 · May 18, 2017

PlainWord said:

Ah okay, thats fine by me. I think this would be called amillenialism? I can agree to disagree on matters like these, but I was only worried you denied the second coming which I hold to be of a CORE christian doctrine no matter what millennial position you take (amill postmill or premill). Good to know you have hope in the future return of our Lord

God bless you.

abcdef · May 18, 2017

VCO said:

There are many scholars who see things differently.

Have you evaluated all the options before deciding that he is correct?

I think that the leaders of the gentile nations who attack Israel are all a "type" of Antichrist.

I don't believe that you will get any worse that 2000 years of murder By the Roman iron beast nation ending with Hitler.

They have EVERYTHING to do with it!

The iron lasts to the stone striking, do you want to now change the iron into something else?

From the invasion of Israel by Rome until today, Rome wages war on Israel.

Jn 19:15, "....Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your king? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar."

Show me exactly where it says that EVERY single true believer will be beheaded in that time.

Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, the Antichrist is Rome coming to destroy the city.

The kingdom on earth was established on Pentecost, and is still here.

Established during the iron legs, before the Empire legs split East and West in 234 AD.

Rockrz · May 18, 2017

Apparently He was on a bathroom break

Holy Porta Potty

abcdef · May 18, 2017

PlainWord said:

An assumption.

The half an hour,

Is the time between the seals and the trumpets.

The dest of Jerusalem had been told by Jesus, so that was expected.(6th seal)

But what about the time after that? The ToGs? How long would they last?

No one knew until it was revealed when the Rev was given, say 96 ad, post dest..

The time between the dest and the Rev was the 1/2 hour of silence.

The trumpets tell about the time after the dest until Jesus comes to take possession of the kingdom at the 7th trumpet.

This doesn't mean that Jesus was there, and that it was the 1/2 hour spoken of after the 7th seal.

That is assumed, and not in scripture.

And the dest of Jerusalem is the 6th seal, the 7th seal only shows that all the requirements to open the little book have been met.

The 7th seal shows silence in heaven, then the beginnings of the trumpets.

The events in Rev 8:2-6 all happen well after the dest of Jeru at the 6th seal, and the 1/2 hour of silence.

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

Issachar92 said:

I guess you could call me an amillenialist. However, I hold that the return of Christ in Mat 24:31 was Him returning in spirit much as how God would appear in the OT from time-to-time. I obviously hold that the "great tribulation" of Mat 24:21 was the wrath of the Lamb against Jerusalem and the unbelievers of that day.

The "millennium" is an undefined period of time which began on the day Christ was resurrected. There was a 40 year overlap between the "Mosaic Age" or "Law" and the "Church Age," the "Messianic Age" and the "Millennium." All three terms are the same thing. In Mt 28 Christ says this:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

He makes clear that as of that moment, He was already reigning on earth. This is confirmed in Luke 1:33, and in Rom 15:12 which says:

And again, Isaiah says: “There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”

So both Paul and Isaiah teach that Christ reign begins when He rises, not after He returns to earth some 2,000 years later. He returned to earth (His presence did) in 70 AD and He will return again at the end of this earth. Dan 7 shows the scene after Christ ascends back to heaven and God gives Him the kingdom.

Paul taught that we are the temple of God.

Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.

The new temple, not built with hands, is spiritual. This is the indwelling of the spirit. We have this RIGHT NOW. Paul makes this abundantly clear in Eph 2:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SUP]20 [/SUP]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, [SUP]21 [/SUP]in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, [SUP]22 [/SUP]in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

PlainWord · May 18, 2017

A-f,

Yes, but a pretty good one. It is my view that war broke out in heaven shortly after Christ ascended back. Can you imagine Satan being allowed to stay after murdering the Son of God? God is Light, Christ is Light. There is light when either are present.

Why is it quiet in heaven? Because Christ left. That's my opinion.

The 6th seal happens just prior to Christ's presence return. The signs here agree with the ones given in Mt 24:29-30. Christ actually comes at the 7th seal and His presence is seen inside the temple as a bright light which turns the dark into day. The light lasted a half hour, just as it was quiet for a half hour in heaven.

"And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Well Jerusalem disappeared completely but was rebuilt. I tend to agree that the ToG lasted until 1967.

The timing of the writing of Rev is irrelevant because of this verse:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

Assumption?

What do you base this on?

Perhaps. I don't have a better theory at this time.

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