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I think also some stop at scriptures where it says those GOD foreknew, HE predestined______________(and they stop, never completing the end of it) "to be confirmed to the image of HIS DON"
its the same with work out your own salvation with fear and trembling _______________(they stop there and never really complete the full of what is really said and meant) "for it is GOD who worketh in you to will and to do HIS good pleasure"
if we are GOD's workmanship created in CHRIST JESUS unto good works _______(again the last part is left off) "which HE prepared in advance that we should walk in"
Then the ONE who began this work in us will bring it to completion
And even in that day we won't be exalting our flesh
its the same with work out your own salvation with fear and trembling _______________(they stop there and never really complete the full of what is really said and meant) "for it is GOD who worketh in you to will and to do HIS good pleasure"
if we are GOD's workmanship created in CHRIST JESUS unto good works _______(again the last part is left off) "which HE prepared in advance that we should walk in"
Then the ONE who began this work in us will bring it to completion
And even in that day we won't be exalting our flesh
Although it is written no one can come to the father except through the son, no one can come to the son unless the father enables it, no one knows the son but the father, no one knows the father but the son and those whom the son reveals him
it is also written, those who the father has given me will come to me and anyone who comes to the son, he will in no wise cast out
it is also written, those who the father has given me will come to me and anyone who comes to the son, he will in no wise cast out
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We don't know who is "Esau" and who is "Jacob"
HE didn't give us that information
HE told us to go and preach to all men
whowver believes will be saved
GOD's WORD will go out and will not return to HIM
void, but will accomplish HIS PURPOSE
Just like HE told Elijah
i have reserved to myself a remnant who has not bowed his knee to baal or kissed his lips
the tares will grow with the wheat
when the Lord of the harvest comes
HE will harvest
HE didn't give us that information
HE told us to go and preach to all men
whowver believes will be saved
GOD's WORD will go out and will not return to HIM
void, but will accomplish HIS PURPOSE
Just like HE told Elijah
i have reserved to myself a remnant who has not bowed his knee to baal or kissed his lips
the tares will grow with the wheat
when the Lord of the harvest comes
HE will harvest
Do you just make up stuff and then say it's what the person said? (IOW lie and misrepresent purposefully) - or - are you just incapable of comprehending what people on here truly have said?
You do either one or the other, I'm hoping it's for the latter reason.
If it's the latter, this link may be of help to you.
If it's the former, this link may be of help to you.
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My sin area is gossiping. I really rather not hear a she said/he said thing. Thanks.
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I'm the numbers guy in the family. If there is a number, I'll remember it. (539 instances of the word "all" in the NT, not counting the gospels. I really do have a weird memory for numbers.) John's the words guy. I ask him "where does it say" and then paraphrase, and he can tell me where within one minute or less.
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Actually, I don't start nor stop there. I start with Romans 1, that tells who all people are. Go on from there to find out how the lawkeepers couldn't pull off salvation, nor the Jews, nor the Gentiles, and why, and then who God is and then what he has done and then what we should do about what he as done. Poof. The whole book of Romans, not one teensy little verse that could possibly -- if you squeeze your eyes just right -- say what you want it to say.
John 6
28Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
God draws all men. Humans are forced to feel the very real God within a humans soul drawing them to God. consciously or unconsciously.
If all men are drawn to God then once they have heard the Gospel, they learn of who this presence is and what God did to save mankind.
The only thing God calls us to do is believe ( have faith) john 6:29 for it is Gods will that everyone who believes in Jesus shall inherit eternal life john 6:40.
Romans 10:17King James Version (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Obviously we know that just hearing the Word of God doesnt force anyone to have faith. Or else everyone who heard the Word would believe.
This forceful dragging of God to himself is to give everyone the chance to be saved by hearing the Word. By hearing of Jesus. Everyone who hears is left to a choice. This is how Gods will for everyone reaches everyone.
Have faith or remain in rebellion to the truth that God dragged you to. So either God is lying in verse 40 giving everyone a chance to be saved or God only draws his pre elected in verse 44?
Out of context some will say only Gods elect are drawn.
But obviously all men are drawn to the point of without excuse to one day have to choose to have faith in Christ or remain in rebellion.
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Prophets told everyone will be taught by God, dragged to truth. And the Father teachs of Jesus. Most all will eventually come faced with Jesus by Gods doing. (excluding the mental disabled or infants) But the choice of faith is still held responsible to the all who are drawn to truth.
Romans 1:18-20New International Version (NIV)
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac . . . It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated - Did God actually love Jacob and hate Esau, individually? Nope . . . And the children struggled together within her: and she said If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to inquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. Gen. 25:13 Prophecy was fulfilled - the Edomites (Esau) served the Israelites; the Israelites (Jacob) were stronger than the Edomites. Throughout the OT different nations were killed off by the Israelites, all because of idolatry and to keep the bloodline of the Messiah pure. God's plan and purpose.
God calls all men to repentance - Can some resist that calling and harden their hearts and God relinquishes them to their own hardened heart? Yes - How can he hate some when we are all fearfully and wonderfully made - knit together in our mother's womb?
The scriptures you posted don't support your view. You have imposed it on the text. The Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son. Just because it says everyone, it doesn't mean everyone. It clearly states who everyone is.
If it's the work of God for everyone to believe, then God must suck at his job. You have quoted a Calvinist proof text. Dunno how you get what you get out of it without twisting it. Faith is a gift of God, not something mustered by man. Again, quoting a Calvinist proof text.
Contrast with:
Ephesians 2English Standard Version (ESV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
You are the one forsaking context.
If this were true all men would be saved because Jesus said all that are drawn are justified and all that are justified are glorified, and all that are drawn he will raise up on the last day. So either a. God has failed in his promise or b. you are just wrong.
Then, again, God must have failed in his promise.
This simply means that creation is proof of a creator. The carnal mind is by nature hostile to God and suppresses the truth. This is why we need God's intervention. A new nature, a new heart, a gift of faith.
So, God doesn't hate the individual person named Esau, He instead hates the entire nation of people, the Edomites instead?
And, let's continue to apply your methodology up above to Jacob as well and be consistent - God doesn't actually love the individual Jacob, He only loves the nation, yet many in that nation are going to hell in a hand basket because they are not saved, are spiritually lost, and to top that off have rejected their Messiah.
So, we have God loving an entire nation and hating an entire nation. Can't see how the latter is more comforting to those who have disdain for God's electing grace to hate and love whom He so desires when it ends up with God hating a multitude of persons "before he did anything good or bad." Wait, never mind, that phrase refers to an individual named Esau, can't be having that. He hated an entire nation of people before "they" did any good or bad. Got it.
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I wondered this as well. How are they okay with a corporate election but not an individual one lol. Nations consists of..... wait for it..... individuals!
I think the fact that you are worried about it is proof that it does not apply to you. If you were the kind of person God "hated" you would have no concern for what God thought of you.
What is wrong with the following statement?
"How dare you dislike me, you should like me because I am who I am, and I am happy with
that."
Put simply it is not a discussion or even sensible. Where we are does not define correctness
buy rather self idolatry. We are god in this type of language, where everything we do is ok
because it is us who defines acceptability.
So when I approach the Lord talking about Esau He is saying Esau's approach was wrong, was
he going to do anything about it. It appeared the answer was no. The Lord takes a stand for
a reason, but we need to be willing to go to Him and work it through. If we are not, this means
we are into self worship, and our own perspective defining our world.
Walking in the Lord is taking on certain attributes :-
Poor in spirit, meekness, desiring righteousness, a pure heart, a peace maker, sadness for loss,
showing mercy to the guilty, rejoicing though reviled and persecuted.
This is a place of working issues through, and bearing the balance of what is against what could
be.
Scripture always has lots of summaries, without the background, because it is for us to discover
the background ourselves. It is always possible to write up the background, but until you have
made it your own, you will just disagree and condemn, and then claim where ever you are now
is where you should be. Ironic that, but maybe one step at a time things will change.
"How dare you dislike me, you should like me because I am who I am, and I am happy with
that."
Put simply it is not a discussion or even sensible. Where we are does not define correctness
buy rather self idolatry. We are god in this type of language, where everything we do is ok
because it is us who defines acceptability.
So when I approach the Lord talking about Esau He is saying Esau's approach was wrong, was
he going to do anything about it. It appeared the answer was no. The Lord takes a stand for
a reason, but we need to be willing to go to Him and work it through. If we are not, this means
we are into self worship, and our own perspective defining our world.
Walking in the Lord is taking on certain attributes :-
Poor in spirit, meekness, desiring righteousness, a pure heart, a peace maker, sadness for loss,
showing mercy to the guilty, rejoicing though reviled and persecuted.
This is a place of working issues through, and bearing the balance of what is against what could
be.
Scripture always has lots of summaries, without the background, because it is for us to discover
the background ourselves. It is always possible to write up the background, but until you have
made it your own, you will just disagree and condemn, and then claim where ever you are now
is where you should be. Ironic that, but maybe one step at a time things will change.
Lynn, I can see you feel under attack and maybe thisforum is not the best place to be when we are emotional. I have been therebefore and said things when I was all worked up.
The Bible teaches us that God loves us all and that Hewants us to be saved (all of us). God is not unfair. When Moses was talking toPharaoh there is a verse stating God hardened his heart and it make it seemslike God made Pharaoh do it. When looking at the Hebrew text it is clear thatGod gave Pharaoh over to his own desires and that is why Pharaoh’s heart washardened. God made the desires of his heart grow stronger in him.
God did not hate the Egyptians. If he did none of them would have beensaved but the Bible teaches us that some of the Egyptians went with Israel andthey were also considered to be God’s people. If we believe that God is capableof hate we are serving a God with double standards because His Son taught us tolove our enemies, but then He said to hate your family…. We have to considerthat we might miss some important views when only reading the English translations.