God hating you before you're born?

[ForthAngel]

People are not fighting against the fact that there is a place for those that reject Christ. What they are fighting against is the notion that God chooses those people on purpose to be rejecting Him.

Oh, for the love of God. No one has said this. It's a construct you guys are arguing against when no one has made this claim. Man is responsible before God for their own choice. God doesn't predestine anyone to hell, people choose it of there own volition. What we DO claim, is that God, being rich in mercy and grace, and for his purpose and glory, has chosen some who are completely and utterly undeserving, to save.

 

[kaylagrl]

I agree...this doctrine that God chooses people to hell on purpose violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and violates the nature and character of our loving Father. God hates everything that destroys those who He loves dearly. God hates the sin that is destroying people and deceiving them but He loves the people themselves.

We have a free will to choose Christ when we hear the message of Him.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Here Paul shows that God is the Savior of all men - especially of believers ( Why believers? because they chose to believe on Christ and received the forgiveness of sins - that is the gospel message to people.)

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Absolutely! To believe that God elects certain people to be saved means He also elected some to hell. So God created throw away,disposable people,He created a certain number of people He doesn'tcare about. Not only that but the drug addict,the prostitute,the alcoholic that cries out to Him for help,God just tunes them out,He doesn't care,their cries go unheard,they are disposable. How can anyone know if they will be saved? How can I know if Im one of the elected or one of the doomed?! No,I dont believe that God works that way. Why send missionaries overseas? The right people will come,why preach? No. I dont believe this at all and the Bible doesn't teach it.It makes God to be a liar. "For God so loved" is a lie. No one can convince me of this God,with this nature. All who call,whosoever will,that is the God I serve.

 

[preacher4truth]

And this is why no disagreement with you is ever resolved. You see only what you want to see, and play the passive (victim) while being aggressive (smug, haughty, etc.) to others.

A. How do you know you haven't been hoodwinked by an open theist if you don't even know what an open theist is?

B. You were hoodwinked because you saw absolutely nothing wrong with "universalism" as a defense!

C. Universalism has quite a bit to do with open theism.

And your response to all this is like a pitbull. You clamp down on an ankle, never to remove your teeth until you wear a person down. THEN you claim victory in receiving the final word without ever noticing you simply won't listen to other people's words.

THAT is passive-aggressive.

He should have manned-up and owned his error, and admitted it was a mistake like a man. Instead he's deflecting blame, and making excuses for error, justifying it and hoping for compromise. Robert Schuller and Joel Osteen would be proud.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Oh, for the love of God. No one has said this. It's a construct you guys are arguing against when no one has made this claim. Man is responsible before God for their own choice. God doesn't predestine anyone to hell, people choose it of there own volition. What we DO claim, is that God, being rich in mercy and grace, and for his purpose and glory, has chosen some who are completely and utterly undeserving, to save.

But you just said that Esau was not chosen before he was born.... sounds like predestination to me.

Poor Esau had no chance of making it in your books.

 

[BenFTW]

He should have manned-up and owned his error, and admitted it was a mistake like a man. Instead he's deflecting blame, and making excuses for error, justifying it and hoping for compromise. Robert Schuller and Joel Osteen would be proud.

You must've missed the post where I apologized to ForthAngel. The one he acknowledged in his posts but apparently you're still busy trying to take cheap shots.

 

[trofimus]

People are not fighting against the fact that there is a place for those that reject Christ. What they are fighting against is the notion that God chooses those people on purpose to be rejecting Him.

It is anti-the gospel and really violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and violates the nature and character of God.

God doesn't arbitrarily choose some for hell and some for heaven - they chose that themselves. Salvation is open for all. God so loved the world - that He gave.

The gospel is simple. He loved, He gave, we believed, we live.

People are free to believe whatever they want but this false doctrine of God sends you to hell on purpose because He didn't choose you beforehand is not the gospel.

But what you are presenting is not neither biblical nor anything what Calvinism says....

Its all much more complex, not so black-white.

 

[Depleted]

Reformed Theology/ Calvanism clashes with the Apostolic Doctrines passed down to the Early Church Fathers*****Irenaus (130-202) "Man is endowed with the faculty of distinguishing good and evil; so that without compulsion he has the power by his own will and choice, to perform God's commandments by doing which he avoids the evils prepared for the rebellious" ***** Justin Martyr (2nd Century). "Man acts by his own free will and not by fate"

Well since the doctrine of trinity clashes from that period of church history too, I really wouldn't count that as biblical proof. Even if it didn't, I wouldn't count that as biblical proof.

 

[trofimus]

Absolutely! To believe that God elects certain people to be saved means He also elected some to hell. So God created throw away,disposable people,He created a certain number of people He doesn'tcare about. Not only that but the drug addict,the prostitute,the alcoholic that cries out to Him for help,God just tunes them out,He doesn't care,their cries go unheard,they are disposable. How can anyone know if they will be saved? How can I know if Im one of the elected or one of the doomed?! No,I dont believe that God works that way. Why send missionaries overseas? The right people will come,why preach? No. I dont believe this at all and the Bible doesn't teach it.It makes God to be a liar. "For God so loved" is a lie. No one can convince me of this God,with this nature. All who call,whosoever will,that is the God I serve.

To this, I will probably quote Augustin again

"There are some persons who suppose that the freedom of the will is denied whenever God's grace is maintained, and who on their side defend their liberty of will so peremptorily as to deny the grace of God..."


The Biblical teaching is the one that accepts all Bible verses. There our own actions and there is also a clear election and the plan of God, the providence of God, not equal to everybody.

 

[PrynceNY]

The scriptures states God desires for no one to perish. So no he does not hate us or doom us before birth. it is the choices we make that has the potential to doom us for eternity. However God is merciful and forgiving, "long-suffering" as the scriptures says. God answers prayer according to his time not ours.

 

[Depleted]

The point isn't the luck, but that he is rather fortunate compared to the others. He got destined to Heaven but those poor souls God destined to eternal damnation. Yeah... really paints a loving Father who desires that all be saved. Yup.

That loving God is also that wrathful God. Not my fault you keep trying to fix him to your liking.

And, yup. Nothing haughty about you, or passive-aggressive at all, huh? BTW, I wrote that before you're arguments with two other people. So, now I see this as all about you proving you are always right, Bible be damned!

 

[1ofthem]

Making a choice....
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

 

[Depleted]

I have to say this is precisely what I felt when I read it.

Which is why reading the whole Book of Romans helps. Nothing out of context then. lol

 

[Depleted]

So, this have been quite the revelatory morning. A liar, not edifying, propagating my own doctrines, etc. Anyone else have anything to add? Does anyone else want to be an exhorter this morning? I'm loving the encouragement.

One thing for sure, you certainly haven't been the exhorter.

I really pray you did receive revelation. That would be fantastic. I hold onto that hope.

 

[Depleted]

We did a study on this verse in church because God is love and therefor cannot hate. The translated word should actually be preferred. God preferred Jacob because of His willingness to listen to God.

He cannot do hate? Really? Would you please show me how he loved the Egyptians right into the flush from the Red Sea out of love?

 

[Iamlearning]

It only makes sense, if you think humans are sovereign over God. We are the master, and God is the mere servant. Please do NOT take 88 words to heart. He is wrong, and shows it by his lack of evidence.

God's sense is different than human's sense.

OK understood. I won't lie some of these things I find confusing. I don't know either what is theism and what is so wrong about it (never heard of it before). Thank you for your answer many blessings and Love

 

[Depleted]

Quite amazing to me that some believe you are destined for hell no matter what you do,God has chosen you for destruction.I do not believe this. If this is true why evangelize? Why preach? The right people will be saved anyway. No.Whosoever will may come.

Did you find God's list of who he has chosen? Pass it around and evangelism is much easier.

The right people will be saved, but something something about hearing from the word of God. (Rom. 10:17.)

 

[preacher4truth]

My advice to you is to be careful what you are reading here as there are some that have doctrines that end up making your salvation dependent upon yourself instead of the Lord Jesus.

Such as your decisional regeneration free will false gospel. All the reformed here believe in Soli Deo Gloria, that salvation is 100% of God and is not granted via choice. We even believe the Scriptures witness that faith is His gift.

So, the bottom line is you're still lying and misrepresenting others. Your above is a description of what you actually teach not of those you falsely accuse.

iamlearning? We are called "monergists" and the likes of BenFTW are what are called "synergists". A cursory Google of those terms will show clearly that the former (monergism) shows salvation is not up to the person, as ben falsely asserts, but is 100% God. Synergism on the other hand? Not so much.

 

[BenFTW]

One thing for sure, you certainly haven't been the exhorter.

I really pray you did receive revelation. That would be fantastic. I hold onto that hope.

Bye. I'm sure you know what this means as undoubtedly it happens to you all the time. You made history though, first time you've ever been on my ignore list. Not to mention I think its the first ever on my list. Cheers! Whatever is causing you to act out I hope it improves for the better, and you stop lashing out. Again, bye.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

He cannot do hate? Really? Would you please show me how he loved the Egyptians right into the flush from the Red Sea out of love?

So God threw a temper tantrum and killed the Egyptians? I never knew this

 

[ForthAngel]

OK understood. I won't lie some of these things I find confusing. I don't know either what is theism and what is so wrong about it (never heard of it before). Thank you for your answer many blessings and Love

We are all Christian Theists. Open theism, however, is really bad stuff. Even the Arminian's here will agree. They believe in a god that is bound by time and space, has no foreknowledge, that Jesus can at any time defy the Father and the Trinity would dissipate, and many more extremely heretical beliefs.